Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hallel Yaffa Ariel

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Opinions are divided (sadly, along partisan lines, insofar as I recognize the participants) as to whether the event is significant enough to warrant article-level coverage in the light of WP:NOTNEWS. There is consensus to move the article, if it is not deleted, to a title describing the event rather than the person, but editors will need to determine whether that title is Murder of Hallel Yaffa Ariel or Death of Hallel Yaffa Ariel or something else.  Sandstein  16:45, 27 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hallel Yaffa Ariel

Hallel Yaffa Ariel (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Yes indeed a tragedy but doesn't worth an article. Per WP:NOTNEWS and WP:EVENT. If we had an article for every man who died in the violecne," Israeli Palestinian tragedy we would have to submit some 20 articles every year. Bolter21 (talk to me) 17:29, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep -This is internationally covered and condemned by Prime Minister of israel and US State department as terrorist attack. This is not covered by WP:NOTNEWS and WP:EVENT which is for things like streetcorner muggings and stabbings with no political motive that are not part of a continuing conflict and warfare and are not commented on by heads of state. Such arguments are continually used to try to delete every article on incidents of violence which is a terrorist attack or resembles one. If there are 1000 fatal terrorist attacks a day across all nations, there is no limit on the number of articles on such topics Bachcell (talk) 17:39, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
— Note to closing admin: Bachcell (talk • contribs) is the creator of the page that is the subject of this AfD.
    • Comment The words of Prime Ministers and US state department does not make one event as significant. Netanyahu's words should not be taken seriously in Wikipedia. We don't have an article for every attack that occured in the last seven months, we actually have only 8 and three of them needs to be deleted. I"ll tell you a secret, there may not be a 1000 terrorist attacks everyday, but there are dozens, and some, have hundreds of casualties, such as mass executions of people or members of minorities in Iraq, some of which are in the context of an actual Genocide that is happening right now and yet, you don't hear about them. So we stick up to the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, this incident among others is not significant and has no major impact on the Israeli Palestinian conflict but just an incident that is very sad due to the fact a 13 year old girl was stabbed to death in her be which is something that makes it good for condamnations and news reports, but not for Wikipedia, as all of the articles about the attacks in the recent round of violecne," between Israel and the Palestinians are part of a series of articles regarding this wave of violence starting in September. There are murders much more horrible than this one, even not in the context of terrorism that doesn't recieve an article.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 18:30, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • Bolter, your letting your bias show a bit with your comment. As to the matter at hand, while it is true we don't have an article for every terror attack, this attack was notably gruesome. It wasn't a random shooting or stabbing, it was an attack while the victim slept. Sir Joseph (talk) 18:39, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
        • What bias and where exactly is the significance of this attack except for it being grusome? A few months ago we had a man being butchered with a butcher knife, in October we had a man ranning over four people, smashing them between his vehicle and a bus stop and then exiting the van and starting to chop an old man with his butcher's knife. Two weeks ago an man in his car was sprayed with bullets, his wife was critically injured and he left behind 10 children and possibly hundres of people who loved him as he was a popular figure and also friend of high officials in the Mossad and the Israeli Parliament and yet we he have no article for all three of those. Those three are all horrible "tragedies" but they are not more than that. Their impact is between very little to no impact at all. They didn't cause a significant chain of events, they didn't cause a national debate, they were already forgotten and we are two weeks after the death of Halel and still nothing really happened due to it, except for a controversial settlement expansion plan by the Israeli government, but apart from that, really nothing happend.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 18:52, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I object to the animus and POV exhibited by Nom. I trust that notability will be judged fairly according to WP:CRIME and WP:GNG, not according to what Nom appears to assert are special rules that unspecified parties apply to the Jewish State. I strongly doubt the judgment of an editor so enraged by an article that he has lost his customary ability to spell (or type): ("grusome," "ranning over", "hundres", "condamnations", "violecne," "occured", and even the victim's name.) I strongly urge editors operating under the influence of a hatred or animus so strong that they lose the ability to type, to refrain from editing until they can.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:09, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That is quite enough, WP:NPA is fairly clear, this is a topic covered by discretionary sanctions and if you make one more personal comment to any other editor I will seek sanctions against you. Read and internalize the opening of WP:NPA, most importantly Comment on content, not on the contributor.nableezy - 19:41, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
'he has lost his customary ability to spell (or type).' Keep your bad manners out of it. A 17 year old effortlessly bilingual in Hebrew and French, with an advanced knowledge of a third language and sufficient aware of the foibles of his occasional lapses in spelling to mock himself with comic irony by documenting the errors on his page, should be admired for his precocity rather than waspishly taken to task by the monolingual. He's a credit to Wikipedia.Nishidani (talk) 19:45, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Editors who wish to see the intemperate impression given here by Nom should read an earlier version of this page; which has been cleaned up. Nom's orthography is generally excellent.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:06, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Gregory, the last time I checked I was an Israeli Zionist of the center camp of Israeli politics (and if I had a babel userbox, I would label my English as level 3 out of 5). I just don't want to see an article for things I think are not significant enough for an article and because I see no one is generally doing anything I do it myself. There are three incidents from the current wave of violence that in my opinion should not have an article and no one much offered to delete them but when I see another incident I think shouldn't be here I don't sit and let it exist like the others. I think that the existence of such articles is quite misleading, as it takes small fractions of a conflict and make them significant over things that don't get an article and as far as I know Israeli media and politics, all the reactions to this incidents are emotional as this is an horrible attack but it didn't change anything on the ground or as Tricky said "have [a] wider implications for the conflict as a whole". The amount of people dying not in the context of terrorism is horrible: yesterday a baby died because his parents forgot him in a vehicle and a vehicle can reach up to 50 degrees Celsius in an Israeli summer. Today three people died in car accidents, but they don't get an article. A girl murdered in her bed is awful, but in making a Wikipedia article it is no different than "regular" deaths because it really has no significance in the conflict. You need to understand that events like that are not rare, and not in Israel. A few months ago there was an allegation that two Arabs raped a young Jewish woman with mental issues from a racial motive, but this didn't got an article, because this is just another. If the entire family was killed in the attack this would definitely have an article, as that is a rare thing in our conflict. In Iraq there are attacks with 50 people being killed that get no articles, because they are generally "just another", and generally in Iraq some 20 people die everyday on "good" days.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:49, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per my comment above. Basically, this wasn't your generic terror attack, it was a gruesome attack while the victim was sleeping and is clearly not covered by WP:NOTNEWS. Sir Joseph (talk) 18:45, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Terrorism-related deletion discussions. Sir Joseph (talk) 18:37, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. Sir Joseph (talk) 18:37, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Palestine-related deletion discussions. Sir Joseph (talk) 18:37, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 20:01, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"Mohammed Abu Khdeir" → 118,000 = Wikipedia article
"Hallel Yaffa Ariel" → 163,000 = Discussion about deletion
This could sound like anarchy and challenge the foundation of the Arab-Israeli Conflict contingent, but some articles can exist outside of List of violent incidents in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, 2016.
No more Wikiwashing. KamelTebaast 04:50, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Youd be better off picking a different article. The article on Abu Khdier, and its not a biography, exists because of its significance in a larger set of distinct events, events that if they were covered together would be too large of an article. So we have articles on 2014 kidnapping and murder of Israeli teenagers and the following Kidnapping and murder of Mohammed Abu Khdeir and the culminating 2014 Israel–Gaza conflict. Those other two articles exist because reliable sources talk about their so called enduring impact. That isnt the case here. This has not had, like any other number of violent acts in a long running conflict, any appreciable impact recorded by reliable sources. This is, and Im sorry if this is callous, somewhat routine, as the sheer length of List of violent incidents in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, January–June 2016 should readily demonstrate. nableezy - 07:07, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The death of Abu Khadeir sparked a three month long unrest in Jerusalem, causing the death of some 80 people on both sides, starting what is called the Silent Intifada (which was recently renamed to a better name), and also one of the events leading to the worst battle in Gaza for the last century and also part of the events that can be related to the current phase of violance. The Abu Khadeir incident also caused a controversy about wether the homes of Jewish terrorists should be demolished like the homes of Arab terrorists. The death of Halel on the other hand caused pretty much nothing, just a horrible event.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 12:31, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, your search data is wrong and I have no idea how did you come up with those numberes.
The search hallel yaffa ariel brought only 71,000 results. But when I search results since 31 June I only get 24 pages of links, which means 240 results. --Bolter21 (talk to me) 18:37, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not sure what type of search you're doing. I just did another Google search on a different server:
"Mohammed Abu Khdeir" → 110,000
"Hallel Yaffa Ariel" → 154,000
Regardless, that is not the only indicator. However, to Khdeir's credit, many articles would have been written in Arabic that did not show up on these google searches. KamelTebaast 22:12, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Listen, Ariel is one of the 20 most popular names in Israel, we have an MK named Ariel, we have an important settlement called Ariel, if you wrote "Hallel Yaffa Ariel" there's a good chance you"ve got thousands of "ariel". You are not searching for results since 31 June, you are searching for results as old as 15 years.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 09:40, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Not if you're searching with quotes. That restricts to what is in the quotes. Sir Joseph (talk) 13:47, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - per WP:GNG which trumps the IDONTLIKEIT,s of above.BabbaQ (talk) 17:09, 15 July 2016 (UTC) — Duplicate vote: BabbaQ (talk • contribs) has already cast a vote above.[reply]
    • Actually, as a point of fact, each of the delete comments above that referenced NOTMEMORIAL or NOTNEWS in fact, as a policy based argument, trumps the ones that say, for example, notable or GNG, as those are guideline based arguments. Policy > Guideline, and also, FYI, WP:LIKE is the same thing as WP:IDONTLIKE. nableezy - 17:32, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • The article meets every single one of the points per WP:GNG except one, which is that a new article must not contradict WP:NOT. Per WP:NOT, Wikipedia is not a WP:NOTMEMORIAL site. It also teaches us that people who are known for one event (i.e. WP:BLP1E) should generally not have an article. Also we have WP:GEOSCOPE, which says that "Notable events usually have significant impact over a wide region, domain, or widespread societal group", but the murder of Hallel has not had any significant impact. Beyond that I didn't find other relevent policies and guidelines that can futher contribute to my point, so I'll move back to common sense. We have the articles List of terrorist incidents, June 2016 and we have the article List of violent incidents in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, January–June 2016 and this attack is listed there. Because the attack has no significant impact whatsoever, there is not much to write besides the incident it self, which is present in both lists. In addition, should the attack have any implication (except for it being relatively shocking, which is in the eyes of the beholder), the information will be in Israeli–Palestinian conflict (2015–present), the article that talks about the phase of violance in which this attack occurred. Since this attack has no significant impact, it can remain in the two lists where it is already present and lie there in peace.
The "motive" for my suggestion is not political. I am an Israeli citizen and I never really politically detested my country or the people. The reason is that as a member of this project, I must respect the nature of this project. So please, to anyone, stop saying that the removal of this article stems from WP:IDONTLIKEIT or WP:POV and, rather, actually address the arguments given.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 18:56, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm glad you raised that essay. It reads:'Bludgeoning the process is where someone attempts to force their point of view by the sheer volume of comments, such as contradicting every viewpoint that is different from their own,' which is exactly what you do at the AfD pages when the many articles you create on terrorism are vetted there. Self-goal, in short.Nishidani (talk) 21:37, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • No Gregory, simply, NO. There are some 16 individual comments here to the topic. I responded to the creator of the article to further explain my point, then to Sir Joseph who blamed me for a putative POV, then to you who blamed me for whatever. Then I replied to someone who said I was 'wikiwashing', who also brought wrong information to support his claim, and to this guy. So in general, I responded to 3 people who said I was not being policy-compliant and to another one who made a statement about WP:GNG, four people, 16 comments. Stop being so facile in charging that other editors are disruptive.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:49, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Move content to list of Palestinian terror attacks, Israeli-Palestinian conflict 2015-present, or Silent Intifada... and redirect.--Monochrome_Monitor 02:57, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep, but move to Murder of Hallel Yaffa Ariel. Everybody knows, and its been proven the substantial media coverage, that the murder of one individual can have international serious ramifications. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 15:41, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and move to Murder of Hallel Yaffa Ariel. As it was mentioned below there thousands of sources available, when searching for this event. Also the nature of the crime itself is dfferent from others based on how it was executed. Arthistorian1977 (talk) 19:14, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Why is it different? A boy went into a house, and stabbed a teen girl to death, just as in this random sample from hundreds of similar unwikified incidents, e.g.this, this,this,this,this. These are WP:NOTNEWS , and the same applies. Oh, yes, there is a difference. The murderer was an Arab.Nishidani (talk) 20:08, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is different because it's an event that created a lot of waves around it, leading to other events and consequences. When a boy gets into a house and kills a teenage girl, this is tragic, but not notable. When a boy gets into a house, kills a girl, leading to politicians, ministers to create or change plans; for international community to talk about the event, it's a notable event. And it has nothing to do with him being an arab. Mohammed Abu Khdeir's murderers were Israelis. You don't argue the article is their basing on that fact. Arthistorian1977 (talk) 13:03, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • The reason is WP:RS as per WP:GNG. Beware WP:BLUDGEON.E.M.Gregory (talk) 02:00, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Those are reliable sources, genius. As the fourth most prolific contributor to this page, you might want to have a look at that essay yourself. And since you like to cite it so often, in its spirit, please try to not get the last word in. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 02:47, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The death of Abu Khadeir is different becasue it is directly related to: 2014 kidnapping and murder of Israeli teenagers, 2014 Israel–Gaza conflict, 2014 Jerusalem unrest (including: Yehuda Glick#Assassination attempt  • 2014 Jerusalem synagogue attack  • 2014 Jerusalem tractor attack  • November 2014 Jerusalem vehicular attack  • Killing of Sergeant Almog Shiloni) So please, don't try to compare based on race.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 13:42, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
E. M. Gregory. Your recent edit looks definitely like an attempt to manipulate the vote, stacking it. Nableezy removed User:Kigelim 's edit for keep and another editor User:Valeince's edit for delete because neither were entitled to comment per WP:ARPIA#3 on this I/P topic. Despite this occurring a half an hour before, you restored Kigelim's keep vote with the edit summary 'dropped out for some sort of glitch', while leaving out Valeince's delete vote. Nableezy aapplied neutrally a principle that excluded editors of either view. You appear to have feigned not to have understood his edit, and restored only the partisan vote for retention of the article.Nishidani (talk) 13:46, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As I just explained to you on my talk page: ":Please WP:AGF. I have had edits disappear via glitches (sometimes because I bungle my response to an edit conflict notice.) Moe to to the point, on the edit history page, I could see two edits by User:Kigalim that did not appear on the page, so I restored his comment."E.M.Gregory (talk) 13:51, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, sure.Nishidani (talk) 13:53, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I now see that you and Nableezy are 2 different editors. And have now looked at Nableezy's remove edit. It cites an ARPIA policy that bans edits by IP addresses. USER:Kigelim, however has a name. i.e. the edit was not by an IP. Can you explain why it was removed? I have also now looked at the other editor Nableezy removed User:Valeince. That editor also is not an IP. Can you explain why these 2 edits were removed?E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:01, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Read again. nableezy - 14:15, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
OK. Now I see. He joined in January; but he would have needed 500 edits before he was allowed to voice an opinion. No wonder so many new editors get discouraged leave.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:50, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This is a very new rule. As I see it, this rule is highly discouraging to new editors who are especially likely to make their first edit at a page or discussion about a breaking news event. This is a lousy way to turn newbies into productive editors.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:56, 19 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and move to Murder of Hallel Yaffa Ariel. Arguments for deletion raised by Nom and others fail because this is not a case of WP:NOTNEWS because neither coverage nor event were "routine." As to WP:EVENT, this murder exhibits "impact, depth.., geographical scope (not only national but international) diversity and reliability of the coverage: plus "the coverage is (not) routine." Every national daily covered the story in detail, as did major dailies like the Los Angeles Times with this detailed look at this murder and its impact "New sense of vulnerability grips Israeli settlers after stabbing of 13-year-old girl," [1]. And note that this is still in the news: "After Abbas Refuses to Meet, Netanyahu Sends Him a Video Outlining “5 Steps for Peace” [2] worldwide: "Israel PM Urges Mahmud Abbas To Sack Aide Over 'Murder Call'" [3], The Hans India. And that WP:NCRIME specifies (AFD in re: crimes is an arena where I regularly edit), "media coverage can confer notability on a high-profile criminal act."E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:34, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
E M Gregory. Have you ever stopped to ask yourself during this article creation blitzkrieg on Arabs as murderers why editors who oppose this abuse at the same time refrain from abusing wikipedia by abstaining from the facile temptation to write up, despite widespread coverage (WP:NOTABILITY), extrajudicial killings or plain trigger-happy murders of dozens of Palestinianjs like, Hadeek al-Hashlamon (about 14,200 results): Sarah Hajuj (1,380 results); Mahmoud Badran (13,500 results); Yusef al-Shawamreh gunned down, on video, while he was picking vegetables 5,480 results over 3 years, etc.etc.etc.etc. My own answer is simple, you're on a POV-jihad to screw Arabs by profiling every murder they engage in, and keeping mum about parallel cases affecting Arabs, killed by Israelis. Perhaps I'm wrong, and you'll argue the defense to death, but neutral you are not. Whatever, I will persist in telling everyone with a different POV to maintain an informal agreement not to transform incidents of this kind in which Palestinians are victims into a pretext to write a wiki article. Nishidani (talk) 17:08, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is no "war" in the area. This was an terrorist attack on a child sleeping in her home in peacetime.E.M.Gregory (talk) 01:05, 26 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rushing to delete or redirect - as here - is not always wise. The fact is that many AFD debates read very like this discussion. See: January 2016 Paris police station attack. The reality is that some people view this sort of attack as notable, while others do not. Discussion threfore too often devolve into shouting matches, or mere tallies. And yet is has been consistently true that articles like Munich knife attack are likely to grow in notability over time, as the Munich attack has done in the wake of the 2016 Würzburg train attack. To me, one of the strongest reasons not only to keep this and similar articles, such as Death of Alexandra Mezher, but to create them soon after the event, is that it is so much easier to create a good article in the weeks shortly after an event, and makes it far more likely that editors other than creator will come to the page an make the article a good one. It is far, far more time consuming to create an article on something like the 1996 Paris Métro bombing, 1980 Antwerp summer camp attack, 2014 Tours police station stabbing, 2003 Route 60 Hamas ambush, or 1985 Copenhagen bombings years after the event, not least because it requires access to news archives, academic articles, and academic books not readily available to most editors. And that is why we lack many articles (for example on the turn-of-the-century Anarchist terrorism attacks) that would be useful to have). WP:PRESERVE is an important concept, as is the utility of having good articles created when it is most likely that editors will be interested in editing them: i.e., within a few days or weeks of the event. As here. Which Is why I urge editos to keep this article.E.M.Gregory (talk) 10:42, 19 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please re-read WP:SOURCE. Those hard-to-use academic sources are the ones we should be using to write encyclopedia articles. Contemporary newspaper accounts, which are written in the heat of the moment, often biased, and frequently riddled with errors, are considered the worst among reliable sources. — MShabazz Talk/Stalk 11:23, 19 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is interesting: [[5]] This case has been raised in a Knesset debate, and is being discussed in the press, in the context of proposed legal penalties to be imposed on Facebook, and the family may join a lawsuit being filed in American courts against Facebook, all attempting rto force Facebook to remove the incitement to murder on Facebook, citing the posts made by the murderer in this case. Many articles on this in U.S., Israeli, Palesitnian, and international Jewish papers. Spellings of the murderer's name - and that of his cousin - vary. I hope someone will take the time to add it to the page. Mentioning it here because this WP:RAPID AFD is unduly hasty, the impact of this murder seem to be just beginning.E.M.Gregory (talk) 01:25, 21 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm aware of that. I do read previous comments before making my own. I was just stating my agreement that the title must be changed and giving reasons. Meters (talk) 19:10, 25 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, User:Meters, I mistook.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:20, 25 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I urge editors coming to this page to evaluate this article, the strength of the sourcing, geographic extent, and ongoing nature of the coverage, and the political impact, exactly as they would articles about similar attacks in other parts of the world, such as the University of California, Merced stabbing attack, Munich knife attack, 2015 IKEA stabbing attack, 2015 Leytonstone tube station attack, 2016 Magnanville stabbing, 2016 Ohio machete attack, or 2016 Würzburg train attack. And request that editors arguing for deletion make objective, policy-based arguments their arguments for deleting this particular article.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:20, 25 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note on non-routine nature of coverage. Exapnding article now based on long profile of victim, and her family that ran in the Washington Post; this is the polar opposite of the time-limited, local coverage that defines a "routine" crime.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:43, 25 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note the disruptive nature of WP:RAPID deletions of articles on dramatic events in that dragging an article to AFD discourages editors from expanding articles in the very weeks when editors are most likely to be interested in expanding an article. Furthermore it leads to bad decisions since editors iVote while deeper coverage is continuing to be published, and before impact can possibly be clear. Note, for example, that Nom's assertion that "The death of Halel on the other hand caused pretty much nothing," is now demonstrably untrue, although it was relatively more plausible at the time he asserted it. E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:43, 25 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nish, point is that there is a lot of material that needs to be added, particularly to the impact section. I just added an interesting article form The Philadelphia Tribune on the martyr payments. I hope that you and other editors will help build the article.E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:49, 25 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd just like to ask Engleham if Israel and the Palestinians are at "war"? Please send me the link. KamelTebaast 00:55, 26 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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