Talk:Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present)

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Omnipaedista (talk | contribs) at 10:51, 4 November 2023 (reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Is this really a necessary article in this point in time?

I believe this could be merged with October 2023 Gaza−Israel conflict as its own section rather than requiring its own page when very little has happened. RamHez (talk) 13:41, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I also believe it this should be merged. IamBrainGriffinFromFamilyGuy (talk) 17:01, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree Parham wiki (talk) 18:15, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
gotta disagree MissionGuyNoob (talk) 06:22, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It should be merged, yes. It's a minor fragment of a much broader event. Belayed. The situation has moved on. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:40, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
agreed but i think this article should be renamed to Israel–Hezbollah clashes or of the likes. This wasn't a single strike or simply a Hezbollah strike but multiple clashes for the past week. RamHez (talk) 02:56, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 8 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: MOVED to 2023 Israel-Lebanon border clashes per WP:NOTCURRENTTITLE. Discussion indicates no remaining support for current title or requested title, but instead general support for some other title. As "2023 Israel-Lebanon border clashes" appears to be a common name in the media for this topic (pointed out in discussion) I am moving it to that title. (non-admin closure) Ultimograph5 (talk) 05:06, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

October 2023 Hezbollah strike → 2023 Shebaa Farms airstrike – The attack actually happened at this location, and in the future, "strike" may be mistaken for strike action Bremps... 18:57, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

True,I support this. 2023 Shebaa Farms airstrike sounds better and specific MissionGuyNoob (talk) 06:16, 9 October 2023 (UTC) Struck per WP:ARBECR and WP:ARBPIA4. — MaterialWorks 18:28, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support: Reasonable. Strikes from both sides, not just from Hezbollah. Prodrummer619 (talk) 06:43, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: Strikes have occurred in numerous places in Lebanon and Israel. Not just Shebaa. Also, there's currently an exchange of fire between Israel and Hezbollah so the article shouldn't just talk exclusively about the October 8 strike on Shebaa. I would suggest renaming it to October 2023 Hezbollah-Israel strikes/exchange or something like that. Prodrummer619 (talk) 12:58, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: It has turned into a violent exchange Prodrummer619 (talk) 14:07, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support alternative: Move to October 2023 Hezbollah strikes, making "strike" plural because the article encompasses all of the clashes between Hezbollah and Israel happening alongside the October 2023 Gaza−Israel conflict. AmericanBaath (talk) 21:46, 9 October 2023 (UTC) Struck per WP:ARBECR and WP:ARBPIA4. — MaterialWorks 18:28, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support: This proposal makes the most sense. Charles Essie (talk) 03:39, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Move to 2023 Israel−Lebanon border clashes since this already covers a variety of events and multiple parties, i.e. it's not just 'strikes' and the border incursion was by the PIJ, not Hezbollah, etc. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:37, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Or 2023 Israel−Lebanon clashes, as mentioned below as a variant. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:03, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support alternative: and the fact that the PIJ are also involved makes me support the change, though i prefer "October 2023 south Lebanon clashes " Durranistan (talk) 11:59, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It didn't happen in north Lebanon, it was in southern Lebanon and the occupied Golan Heights. Not Israel. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:41, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
thanks for the correction, my mistake Durranistan (talk) 06:48, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support this variant. It could also be October 2023 Hezbollah–Israel clashes. Oppose 2023 Israel−Lebanon border clashes because it is not about the army of the Republic of Lebanon. Oppose all other variants, they're not simple strikes. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 14:34, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support move to 2023 Hezbollah–Israel clashes or 2023 Israel−Lebanon border clashes. GWA88 (talk) 14:48, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose "Israel−Lebanon border clashes", the strike wasn't on the border between Israel and Lebanon, it was in the Sheba farms, between Lebanon and the occupied Golan Heights. It is a clear npov violation to claim the area is "Israel". --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:38, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Events have involved, and there has subsequently been an incursion and a series of strikes across the border proper, making it a far broader geography at this point that just the Sheba farms. However, it could potentially also just be 2023 Israel−Lebanon clashes, because yes, technically, there is disputed space. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:59, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It doenst matter if it has evolved, the first strike happened on border between Lebanon and occupied territory, not Israel. The title must accurately describe the event in a npov way.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:21, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - current title is appropriate. Hezbollah strikes are not limited to that specific place. It is also not a border conflict or crisis. Paul Vaurie (talk) 02:37, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - There have been multiple rocket attacks, artillery strikes, air strikes, as well as infiltration by gunmen and shootings on the border since last week. We are well past being able to call this a singular strike, regardless of whether the page renaming involves Shebaa or not. --Dynamo128 (talk) 08:58, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
October 2023 Hezbollah–Israel clashes or simply 2023 Hezbollah–Israel clashes would make the most sense given the circumstances, and would also be in line with how such topics are typically referred to on Wikipedia. --Dynamo128 (talk) 09:00, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Again, Palestinian Islamic Jihad has also become involved, so it's not just Hezbollah anything at this point, hence the alternative suggestions that are more widely encompassing. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:55, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support move to 2023 Hezbollah–Israel clashes RamHez (talk) 14:22, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support immediate replacement of "Hezbollah strike" in current name. "Strike" in the singular is clearly outdated terminology, and Hezbollah is now one of three combatants against Israel on this front. Oppose any move to a title referencing the "Shebaa Farms" because clashes have taken place throughout nearly the entire length of the (de facto) Israel-Lebanon border. Also considering that nearly all the contents of this article also appear in 2023 Israel-Hamas war#Outside Israel and the Gaza Strip, consider potential merge? SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 13:53, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think with how this conflict has developed since this article was created, that 2023 Hezbollah–Israel clashes is now the most appropriate title. GWA88 (talk) 16:18, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Reliable sources such as Reuters continue are referring to these events as Israel-Lebanon border clashes, and Wikipedia should be using something similar. This is already extremely appropriate per WP:NCE, while the suggestions of using "Hezbollah–Israel" in the title are simply not. WP:NCE calls for "when, where, what" and Hezbollah is not a where, but a who. Matching like for like here would give you either Hezbollah-IDF or Lebanon-Israel border, but matching actors with territories is just a mess, apples and oranges, and not what is called for by WP:NCE. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:00, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support move to 2023 Hezbollah–Israel clashes. Clashes have expanded and are continues. EkoGraf (talk) 18:14, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 October 2023

In the October 9th paragraph Israeli is incorrectly spelt as Israelí.

In the October 11th paragraph "of northern" is missing a gap between the two words. Professor Spud (talk) 21:40, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Done partly by me, partly by user Prodrummer619. Politrukki (talk) 15:08, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 October 2023

Hezbollah kills IDF Soldier with ATGM Need to change from 3 to 4 https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-says-soldier-killed-in-hezbollah-anti-tank-cross-border-missile-attack/amp/ Kalaka2335 (talk) 16:13, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Elli (talk | contribs) 02:20, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Merger discussion

I propose merging this article into October 2023 Israel–Hezbollah Golan fire exchanges. Rather than have seperate articles on Hezbollah clashes with Israel during this wider war, it would make sense to have a single article with a name like 2023 Hezbollah-Israel clashes or 2023 Hezbollah-Israel conflict. Please discuss here. GWA88 (talk) 14:30, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Support"- I think the Hezbollah stuff should be moved here but what should be done about the Israeli Airstrikes on Syrian airports in that article. HuntersHistory (talk) 21:22, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support proposed merge of articles regarding the recent clashes in and around Lebanon and Syria. Oppose proposed Hezbollah-centric names due to the involvement of cells of Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad operating out of Lebanon in the events described in this article, in addition to the involvement of the non-Hezbollah-affiliated Syrian Air Defense Force in responding to Israeli strike on apparent non-Hezbollah-affiliated targets in Syria (Aleppo and Damascus International Airports).
Alternatively suggest tentative name Spillover of the 2023 Israel-Hamas war, in the format of articles Spillover of the Syrian civil war and Spillover of the Tigray War, which largely cover incidents involving third parties to the main conflict similar to the events discussed here, which would be largely coterminous with the "Outside Israel and the Gaza strip" section of the primary article.
SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 21:50, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
“Support” @SaintPaulOfTarsus because that makes sense to me. HuntersHistory (talk) 22:14, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom Abo Yemen✉ 19:11, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
===Support===
This can be renamed as Spillover of the 2023 Israel-Hamas war as suggested by User:SaintPaulOfTarsus. 110.224.97.128 (talk) 04:12, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose because this article was created more earlier than that one that you're talking about and there's currently a proposed name change for the article; and also the article that you're talking about has less information about Hezbollah and Israel. PopularGames (talk) 22:56, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed there should be at most one article. This was around first, is much longer, and is the only one of the two actually about Hezbollah, so I redirected the other here. The brief material about Syria is now convered in 2023 Israel–Hamas war#Outside_the_conflict_zone – SJ + 20:11, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nicely done. Thank you for your assistance. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 02:16, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Should the alleged involvement of Iraqi PMF and other "Axis of Resistance" militias be added to this page

According to the Institute for the Study of War, there are reports of a number of Iraqi PMU militias joining the Lebanese Hezbollah in Lebanon for a planned war against Israel. I don't know the veracity of such reports, but should the alleged involvement of Iraqi PMF elements be mentioned in this page? Or is it far too premature for that right now?

Source: https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/iran-update-october-14-2023 Randomuser335S (talk) 15:19, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

IDF death toll at 5

Can't edit the article. Yesterday IDF death toll rose from 4 to 5. Source: Times of Israel reporting on yesterday attack. 2A00:1FA0:110:30C4:178E:81F7:F236:B7CA (talk) 07:58, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Casualties/Losses

2 merkava4 tanks of IDF were destroyed with clashes with Hezbola 2A00:23EE:1CA0:3137:B9E4:5629:1DA2:F45B (talk) 20:13, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 October 2023

2 Merkava 4 tanks of the IDF were destroyed in clashes with Hezbola 2A00:23EE:1CA0:3137:B9E4:5629:1DA2:F45B (talk) 01:13, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done for now: It's not clear exactly what you want changed, and you also need to provide a reliable source for your request. Elli (talk | contribs) 02:21, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 October 2023

Remove the Asa'ib Ahl al-Haq from the belligerent section of the infobox.

The referenced article from the ISW does not properly demonstrate that this group is a belligerent in this conflict beyond some sort of braggadociousness on social media. No single kinetic military activity has been ascribed to the Asa'ib or to any other Al-Hashd Al-Shaabi group. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 02:30, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Statement failed verification. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 15:42, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, @TechnoSquirrel69. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 17:34, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The commanders of the israeli forces in the front

This page appears to refer to every incident in the current military confrontation between israel and hezbollah, and not specifically to a single strike in a defined sector. Therefore, the way in which the 2 israeli officers that were killed are represented as the main commanders of the israeli forces in the front, is wrong and creates a misleading impression that the commanders of all israeli forces in the region were killed in one strike/incident (in fact, both of the israeli commanders weren't responsible on division sized forces). Which isn't true. Therefore, I think that the list of the israeli leaders in the front needs to be updated. טוראי פייל (talk) 02:00, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Add Al-Qassam Brigades to units involved section in infobox

There is now explicit confirmation of Hamas's Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades operating out of Southern Lebanon per ISW.[1] Please add them to the units involved section of the infobox.

SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 20:17, 19 October 2023 (UTC) SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 20:17, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. Also, see [[2]] Brendan ❯❯❯ Talk 05:00, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Iran Update, October 18, 2023". Institute for the Study of War. October 18, 2023.

Is this the socond front ?

For over a week this part of the border has seen some fighting can this be a second front ? 2600:6C50:1B00:32BE:E12E:E076:3863:5956 (talk) 23:35, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Displaced people

If we are willing to add the number of displaced people in Lebanon, we should add the number of displaced in Israel. By this article. Israel evacuated the city of Kiryat Shmona as well as 42 smaller communities 5 kms from the Lebanese border, at least 34,000 residents. Supported (without numbers) by this article, as well as the official government decision for evacuation (in Hebrew). Bhtzuc (talk) 17:23, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This seems like a reasonable request. I can’t understand why it hasn’t be done. While at it, number of displaced in Lebanon should be updated as well. Emmett87 (talk) 20:56, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 26 October 2023

– Differentiate between the April and October events. The April events include more than shellings, but also airstrikes. Suggest renaming for consistency. Longhornsg (talk) 21:56, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: The shellings in April didn't involve any border clashies at all though ... Some shelling occurred, and then there were airstrikes on Tyre and Gaza, nowhere near the border. Border clashes would be a totally non-descript title for that. Better to just add April in front of that title to distinguish it from the shellings that have occurred in the October clashes. Job done. Iskandar323 (talk) 03:49, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If preferred by consensus and based upon the above comment, I would switch support from 2023 Israel–Lebanon shellings → April 2023 Israel–Lebanon border clashes to 2023 Israel–Lebanon shellings → April 2023 Israel–Lebanon shellings. As for the proposed 2023 Israel-Lebanon border clashes → October 2023 Israel-Lebanon border clashes, I feel that the inclusion of "October" within the main title header is analogous to the "April" header and solidifies clarity. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 04:52, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I certainly think this would be preferable to reducing everything to "border clashes". As an alternative to 2023 Israel-Lebanon border clashes → October 2023 Israel-Lebanon border clashes, it might also be reasonable to now intensify this title to 2023 Israel-Lebanon border conflict, given the mounting damage and dead - I'm not sure if "border clashes" really adequately sums up the scale of engagements: it sounds more like protests and the odd potshot than it does the serious rocket and artillery exchanges that are ongoing - with facilities hit, many dead and flights redirected. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:21, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with your points on "border clashes", and I would drop "border" given that some subsequent activity has occurred quite far from the border. Propose 2023 Israel-Hezbollah clashes or the like. Longhornsg (talk) 06:34, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Since the 2023 Israel–Lebanon shellings → April 2023 Israel–Lebanon shellings only lasted for one day in April, it seems sufficient to simply add "April". On the other hand, since the current hostilities will last beyond October, I would amend support to either of the above-proposed alternatives: 2023 Israel-Lebanon border clashes → 2023 Israel-Lebanon border conflict or 2023 Israel-Hezbollah clashes or even 2023 Israel-Hezbollah conflict. Depending upon the progression of hostilities, further revisions using terms stronger than "conflict" or "clashes" may be ultimately applicable. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 08:13, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support moving 2023 Israel–Lebanon shellings → April 2023 Israel–Lebanon shellings per Roman Spinner above. VR talk 13:53, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

October is almost over, and this will probably be going on for a while — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.229.178.74 (talk) 07:15, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, the proposed title will be obsolete in a few hours. VR talk 13:51, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

casualties of Israel

must be updated. 85.104.67.100 (talk) 23:34, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why only hezbollah casualties are updated not Israel's? What about no. of tanks destroyed?

Why only hezbollah casualties are updated not Israel's? What about no. of tanks destroyed? If Israel not revealing it's numbers, why not add hezbollah alleged claim? While mentioning it's hezbollah claim. 202.47.36.141 (talk) 14:36, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Rockets fired from Lebanon at north; IDF strikes terror cells, Hezbollah sites

IDF says it bombed terror group’s positions in southern Lebanon in response to attacks; Israel also said to hit Syrian military, pro-Iran militia targets in response to shelling. Source: The Times of Israel Accuratelibrarian (talk) 00:00, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Israeli casualities

Hezbollah Claims 120 israeli troops have been killed/wounded in the border strikes.

This should be updated. 80.220.74.143 (talk) 13:33, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Claims by Hezbollah (or really by anyone) are not reliable sources. Aydoh8 (talk) 04:39, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
well the leaders' statements must be taken into consideration whether they are true or not: on the Hamas-Israel war Wiki page the entry "1000 infiltrators killed in Israel" was added without providing any documentation, photographic proof or confirmation of this figure. We Wikipedians are not historians, which is why we must take into consideration all possibilities, even more so if they come from the leaders of countries or movements at war with each other. On the Russian-Ukrainian war page, completely random numbers and numbers of Russian losses are cited without any actual evidence, however our job is not to make sure if the number is accurate, that is the job of historians, if there is evidence that Hezbollah has mentioned that number, must be inserted Elia Tamburin (talk) 22:02, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
can you show source? Durranistan (talk) 04:53, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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