Wikipedia:Move review

Source: Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Move review is a process to formally discuss and evaluate a contested close of Wikipedia page move discussions, including requested moves (RM), categories for discussion discussions (CfD), and redirects for discussion discussions (RfD), to determine if the close was reasonable, or whether it was inconsistent with the spirit and intent of Wikipedia common practice, policies, or guidelines.

Prior to submitting a review of a page move's close, please attempt to resolve any issues on the closer's talk page. See step one below.

While the page move close is under review, any involved editor is free to revert any undiscussed moves of a nominated page without those actions being considered a violation of Wikipedia:No wheel warring.

What this process is not

This review process should be focused on the move discussion and the subsequent results of the move discussion, not on the person who closed the discussion. If you have ongoing concerns about a closer, please consult with the closer or post at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. Move review requests which cast aspersions or otherwise attack other editors may be speedily closed.

Do not request a move review if someone has boldly moved a page and you disagree. Instead, attempt to discuss it with the editor, and if the matter continues to be unresolved, start a formal WP:RM discussion on the article's talk page.

Do not request a move review simply because you disagree with the outcome of a page move discussion. While the comments in the move discussion may be discussed in order to assess the rough consensus of a close, this is not a forum to re-argue a closed discussion.

Disagreements with Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions (WP:RMCI), WP:Article titles, the Manual of Style, a naming convention or the community norm of consensus should be raised at the appropriate corresponding talk page.

CfDs[1] and RfDs can only be reviewed here if the relevant discussion was limited in scope to renaming; CfDs or RfDs[2] involving deletion should be reviewed at Wikipedia:Deletion review.

Instructions

Initiating move reviews

Editors desiring to initiate a move review should follow the steps listed below. In the reason parameter, editors should limit their requests to one or both of the following reasons:

  • [Closer] did not follow the spirit and intent of WP:RMCI because [explain rationale here] in closing this requested move discussion.
  • [Closer] was unaware of significant additional information not discussed in the page move discussion: [identify information here] and the discussion should be reopened and relisted.

Editors initiating a move review discussion should be familiar with the closing instructions provided in WP:RMCI.

Steps to list a new review request

 
1.

Before requesting a move review: please attempt to discuss the matter with the closer of the page move discussion on the closer's talk page. Move review is a process that takes several days, sometimes weeks, to close. On the closer's talk page, you can probably resolve the matter much more quickly. There could have been a mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding, and a full, formal move review may not be needed. Such discussion also gives the closer the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind a decision. If things don't work out, and you decide to request a review of the closure, please note in the review that you did first try discussing the matter with the closer. To clarify: You absolutely MUST attempt to discuss the matter with the closer FIRST, and give them a few days to respond.

2.

Follow this link to this month's log and paste the template skeleton at the top of the discussions (but not at the top of the page). Then fill in page with the name of the contested move page, rm_page with the name of the move discussion page if needed, rm_section if needed, closer and closer_section with the post-move discussion information, and reason with the reason why the page move should be reviewed. For example:

Copy this template skeleton for most pages:

{{subst:move review list
|page=
|rm_page= <!--Not needed if the move discussion is on the talk page of the page-->
|rm_section= <!--Name of the section with the move request-->
|closer= <!--User name of editor who closed the move request-->
|closer_section= <!--Name of the section of closer's talk page where discussion took place-->
|reason=
}}  ~~~~

If either the |closer= or |closer_section= parameter is omitted, the result will include "No discussion on closer's talk page". When

  • |closer= < closer's username > and
  • |closer_section= < section header on closer's talk page where there was discussion about the close >

are correctly filled in, the result will include a "Discussion with closer" link to that discussion.

If the |closer_section= link is to the section on the closer's talk page where the closer has only been notified of Move review (see step 3) and the closer has not actually discussed their close with another editor on their talk page, the result will include a "No discussion on closer's talk page" link to the Move review notice.

3.

If you have not done so already, inform the closer of the Move review discussion by adding the following on their user talk page:

{{subst:move review note|PAGE_NAME}} ~~~~
4.

Leave notice of the move review in the same section as, but outside of and above the closed original move discussion. Use the following template: {{move review talk|date=15 June 2024}}. Do not tag the article.

5.

If the current month discussions are not already included in the discussion section below. Add the new log page to the top of the active discussions section.

{{Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2024 June}}
6.

The discussion with closer and notices required above are sufficient notification; you are not required to individually notify participants in the prior move discussion of the move review. However, if you individually notify any of them, you must individually notify all of them by posting a message about the move review on each participant's respective user talk page.

 

Commenting in a move review

In general, commenters should prefix their comments with either Endorse or Overturn (optionally stating an alternative close) followed by their reasoning. Generally, the rationale should be an analysis of whether the closer properly followed Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions, whether it was within closer's discretion and reasonably interpreted consensus in the discussion, while keeping in mind the spirit of Wikipedia policy, precedent and project goal. Commenters should be familiar with WP:RMCI, which sets forth community norms for closers of page move discussions.

If the close is considered premature because of on-going discussion or if significant relevant information was not considered during the discussion, commenters should suggest Relist followed by their rationale.

Commenters should identify whether or not they were involved or uninvolved in the RM discussion under review.

The closer of the page move under discussion should feel free to provide additional rationale as to why they closed the RM in the manner they did and why they believe the close followed the spirit and intent of WP:RMCI.

Remember that move review is not an opportunity to rehash, expand upon or first offer your opinion on the proper title of the page in question – move review is not a do-over of the WP:RM discussion but is an opportunity to correct errors in the closing process (in the absence of significant new information). Thus, the action specified should be the editor's analysis of whether the close of the discussion was reasonable or unreasonable based on the debate and applicable policy and guidelines. Providing evidence such as page views, ghits, ngrams, challenging sourcing and naming conventions, etc. to defend a specific title choice is not within the purview of a move review. Evidence should be limited to demonstrating that the RM closer did or did not follow the spirit and intent of WP:RMCI in closing the page move discussion.

Closing reviews

A nominated page should remain on move review for at least seven days. After seven days, an uninvolved editor will determine whether a consensus exists to either endorse the close or overturn the close. If that consensus is to Overturn Close, the MRV closer should take the appropriate actions to revert any title changes resulting from the RM close. If the consensus was to relist, the page should be relisted at Wikipedia:Requested moves, Wikipedia:Categories for discussion, or Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion. If the consensus is to Endorse Close, no further action is required on the article title. If the MRV closer finds that there is no consensus in the move review, then in most cases this has the same effect as Endorse Close and no action is required on the article title. However, in some cases, it may be more appropriate to treat a finding of "no consensus" as equivalent to a "relist"; MRV closers may use their discretion to determine which outcome is more appropriate.

Use {{subst:move review top}} and {{subst:move review bottom}} to close such discussions.

Also, add a result to the {{move review talk}} template on the talk page where the original discussion took place, e.g. {{move review talk|date=April 24 2015|result=Closure endorsed}}.

Typical move review decision options

The following set of options represent the typical results of a move review decision, although complex page move discussions involving multiple title changes may require a combination of these options based on the specific details of the RM and MRV discussions.

MRV closer's decision RM closer's decision Move review closed as Status of RM after MRV close
1. Endorse Moved / Not moved No action required Closed
2. Overturn Not moved Option 1: (If RM consensus is unclear or significantly divided) Reopen and relist RM Open
Option 2: (If consensus to move to a new title is clear) Move title to new title and close RM Closed
Moved Move title back to pre-RM title, and reopen and relist RM if appropriate Open
3. Relist Moved / Not moved Reopen and relist RM and if moved, move title back to pre-RM title Open

 

Notes

  1. ^ Those that involve renames (Template:Cfr), for all other types of CFDs use deletion review.
  2. ^ Generally for those that don't involve any proposed or suggested deletion, where only the redirect's target was being discussed or if the redirect should be a disambiguation page, for other (even those that were retargeted where deletion was proposed or considered) use deletion review.

Active discussions

2024 June

Welsh Language Society

Welsh Language Society (talk|edit|history|logs|links|archive|watch) (RM) (Discussion with closer)

This move request was closed as "no consensus" where the lack of consensus is based on a faulty reading of WP:UE.

According to BilledMammal who closed as no consensus:

"Reviewing it again, I stand by my previous close. Editors in opposition argued that even sources that do use the Welsh name commonly translate it into English, and I found no basis in policy to give those !votes less weight. "

This statement is incorrect as roughly half of the reliable sources used "Cymdeithas yr Iaith" without providing any translation and none used "Welsh Language Society" except as a translation the first time "Cymdeithas yr Iaith" was presented.

WP:UE does not apply here as the WP:COMMONNAME used in reliable English language sources (and in most pages that link to this one) is Cymdeithas yr Iaith.Morwennol (talk) 10:48, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Overturn (uninvolved). Reading the discussion, it appears that oppose voters have a mistaken belief that WP:UE is a blanket ban on all foreign language titles. Sionk, the one opposer who appears to engage with the evidence laid out in any way, claims that an article that uses the Welsh name in its headline, and adds the translated name once, is evidence that the Welsh name is not in common usage. Mach61 11:19, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn (involved). WP:ENGLISHTITLE states "If a word or phrase (originally taken from some other language) is commonly used by English-language sources, it can be considered to be an English-language word or phrase (example: coup d'état)." Nothing in there suggests we should not use a foreign term as a title if some sources provide a translation for that term along with the term itself. ~~ Jessintime (talk) 16:54, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Additional comment: I've notified BilledMammal (the closer) about this request and put the required notice on the article's talk page. ~~ Jessintime (talk) 19:43, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse (uninvolved) Both WP:COMMONNAME and WP:ENGLISHTITLE apply here as page moves are often balancing acts. While those supporting the move were slightly more numerous in number, those opposing were not incorrect in terms of their policy analysis, and their concerns could not be discounted, especially the concern, confirmed by those supporting, that the English name is listed next to the Welsh name in these articles. I would have closed this as a no consensus and would have moved only with a couple additional support !votes. SportingFlyer T·C 17:55, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Just to clarify: there are numerous RSs referenced in the move request which use Cymdeithas yr Iaith without providing any English translation. There are several which use Cymdeithas yr Iaith alongside alongside an English translation the first time the name is used. There are none which use Welsh Language Society on its own. Morwennol (talk) 18:37, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I was only reviewing the close of the discussion and not the content, but you've got me curious about whether the name was ever used on its own: I was able to find lots of instances, including [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] SportingFlyer T·C 23:19, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, that’s new evidence that heavily supports the Oppose position. Thank you for taking the time to find that. —В²C 00:11, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    To be honest, I really have no preference for the outcome here. My reading of the discussion was simply that based on my reading of the discussion, both those supporting and those opposing made valid arguments, and consensus was not such that a move was clear. I don't think it needs to be re-opened - these "English or native language" discussions can be really difficult! SportingFlyer T·C 05:16, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for digging those out. I think it's mentioned in this MR or the previous one that Welsh Language Society was commonly used in the past to refer to the organisation, and is more commonly used to refer to the organisation in a historical context. Whereas Cymdeithas yr Iaith is strongly preferred for the contemporary organisation.
    When I was looking for stuff using WLS I applied a self-imposed criteria:
    - Less than a decade old
    - UK based rather than internationakl]
    - Referring to the contemporary organisation rather than the org in a historical context
    I think four of the ten sources meet that criteria - one is a letter, one is an English local paper and the other two are from the BBC but are 8 and 9 years old respectively, so at the upper range of my search. I'm not sure they tip the scales (though they are interesting data that ought to be included). Morwennol (talk) 06:26, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It seems to me as if - well, if this closes as no consensus or endorse, then the page is likely to be requested to be moved again in the future. And it seems to me that the problem for those like yourself supporting the move is that the org is notable enough to be continually referenced in media, but not so notable that everyone in a target English language audience would recognise the name, because the vast majority of articles include "the Welsh Language Society" pretty much next to the Welsh language name as a proper noun. From a closer's perspective, if I closed this, that would make it difficult to down-weight those opposing the change. Urdd Gobaith Cymru, for instance, isn't described with a proper noun next to its name in the media. If there has been a shift towards just the Welsh name, and if there's another move request, you may have a better chance of being successful if you can show how the shift is occurring. SportingFlyer T·C 03:49, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    "...but not so notable that everyone in a target English language audience would recognise the name, ..." Why is that a problem? To meet the recognizability criteria there is no need to be "so notable that everyone in a target English language audience would recognise the name". The threshold is: "someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognize." --В²C 04:58, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Because I was not talking about the Wikipedia rules there, but rather about how the articles I've reviewed on this topic have been generally written. SportingFlyer T·C 05:34, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn to moved (uninvolved). Not only were opposers outnumbered, but none really addressed the nom’s main point: the Welsh name is the COMMONNAME based on usage in reliable English sources, You know, like the BBC. Closer apparently gave too much weight to opposer’s stating the undisputed fact that many translate the name. But that’s so those seeing the name for the first time understand what it means; that doesn’t make it the subject’s name. Though not explicitly mentioned in the RM, underlying the Support argument, and countering closer’s finding, is the Recognizability WP:CRITERIA standard: the name must be recognizable to someone familiar with the subject area. Until a short time ago I was not familiar with this subject area. But now that I am familiar, I recognize Cymdeithas yr Iaith as the name of this organization. There is no requirement to make any title recognizable to anyone unfamiliar with the topic, but that seems to be the goal the opposers (and closer) are trying to achieve. —В²C 19:14, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Relist based on significant new information presented by SportingFlyer above showing that Welsh Language Society is commonly used solely, not merely as a translation of the Welsh name, in RS to refer to this organization. Those ten references clearly establish COMMONNAME per UE. It’s unfortunate that this was not raised in the original RM to counter the nom’s argument, but here we are. The emphasis on the English used only as a translation of the Welsh in that discussion, even by Opposers, was very misleading. The RM needs to be reopened, the new information presented, and all previous participants notified. —-В²C 00:11, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn to moved IMO the arguments in favour of the move were better grounded in policy and one of the oppose !votes was a misunderstanding of policy (WP:UE) and should have been disregarded. Number 57 21:58, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn (involved): as pointed out in the previous move discussions and here, WP:UE is not a blanket prohibition on non-English titles if their use is well-established. I think that bar was met, and I don't think the use of courtesy translations lowers them below the bar (for comparison, mention of the Taoiseach in English-language sources will often carry a courtesy translation of "Irish prime minister", but will thereon continue with "Taoiseach"; same applies for Cymdeithas). Sceptre (talk) 18:02, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. < uninvolved > This type of closure, no consensus, always takes a bit of boldness. There is no firm basis for overturning this closure. Based upon good arguments all around, there is no solid ground for any other than the no-consensus outcome. Relisted once already with plenty of participation and time to reach consensus if that had been possible, there is also no viable reason to reopen and relist. This was definitely a correct outcome, which I, too, would have used to conclude this RM. Good gutsy close! P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'er there 18:52, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse (uninvolved). Per SportingFlyer above, and per the closer's assessment when asked about this - "editors in opposition argued that even sources that do use the Welsh name commonly translate it into English, and I found no basis in policy to give those !votes less weight. Further, given the recent consensus not to move the article, there is a slightly higher bar to be met to produce a different consensus - that result has to be taken into account." There seems no reason to discount the opposing arguments here, particularly for a fresh RM so soon after a previous one, and the bar for a consensus to move was not met. Based on the fresh evidence of other sources not using the Welsh, this is even more relevant. If anything, that leans the conversation even further towards not moving.  — Amakuru (talk) 08:12, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

X (social network)

X (social network) (talk|edit|history|logs|links|archive|watch) (RM) (Discussion with closer)

The page was moved prematurely when there was no consensus from the discussion; there were 29 comments supporting the move and 20 opposing it. In the mover's talk page discussion, they said quote "In my opinion, WP:Commonname is generally acceptable, but sometimes it does not align with common sense.", and also "From my observation, more people supported the move. Considering this, and acknowledging the series of previous failed attempts with Twitter, I found it acceptable". These two statements, in my view, show a lack of understanding of how move discussions are supposed to work (they made a choice that aligned with their own common sense rather than consensus, and they counted comments as votes). When asked for clarification, the closer stated "If you believe microblogging is the same as X, no answer from me is going to convince you", which shows an unwillingness to discuss their decision to move the page. In short, this page was moved way before consensus had been reached based on the personal "common sense" that a non-admin found "acceptable". Di (they-them) (talk) 04:43, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment My decision is based on an independent, impartial analysis of the discussion, and that analysis supported the page move. I am not an attorney to give bulletproof answers; I respond with my reasoning, but I didn't know that whatever is told in good faith will be used against me. The rest is up to the review board to decide.Anoop Bhatia (talk) 05:46, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse (involved) The closer was correct, and most of the opposition to the move was WP:VAGUEWAVES and/or lacking any clear policy explanation as why not to follow WP:COMMONNAME. Thus those votes were justifiably reduced in weight to form rough consensus. The passionate opinions about this article are exemplified by Di (they-them) (talk · contribs) first reverting the move before even reading that there had been a move discussion, then coming here seeking an overturn of the move after the move revert was restored. Next, indeed the position of The Education Auditor (talk · contribs) is also potentially correct. We have two issues to deal with here, one is the different corporate strategy post acquisition (generally the controversy relating to X's elimination of the content censorship team) as well as a change in name. The main issue we have on the article that is now resolved is the BLP issue of having the owner's name in the title, which attributes every bit of trivia to the company owner. WP:BLPRESTORE applies to adding Musk's name back to the article title. I am not opposed to other suggested names, but for now, the close and move was correct and we can examine improvements from here. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 08:59, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Jtbobwaysf: Please WP:AGF. I do not have “passionate opinions” about this subject, I redirected the page because I thought that a mistake had been made. I saw that we had two page about the same website and, naturally, assumed that someone had duplicated the original page. It has nothing to do with my opinions on the page, the website, or anything else, and you insinuating that I’m making passionate or opinionated edits is quite insulting. Di (they-them) (talk) 16:44, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please check article talk pages for relevant discussions before do reverts like this Jtbobwaysf (talk) 21:22, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse (involved). Two main arguments were used by a majority of those opposing the move. This included the fact that there may be continuity issues from having two articles about one company and the software itself being the same. I believe that the first issue can be easily resolved by moving Twitter to Twitter (2006-2023) similar to the aforementioned Viacom articles. The second argument is somewhat narrow as the company is more than just the software. It would be ideal to take opposing arguments into account and not treat Twitter as a separate entity. I have written this essay on why this is the most ideal compromise. 𝓣𝓱𝓮 𝓔𝓭𝓾𝓬𝓪𝓽𝓲𝓸𝓷 𝓐𝓾𝓭𝓲𝓽𝓸𝓻 10:23, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse (uninvolved). The close was reasonable. A lot of the oppose comments take issue with the existence of the article without really getting into why the proposed name wouldn't work. ~~ Jessintime (talk) 14:39, 3 June 2024 (UTC) Edit: While I think closing the discussion as "moved" was reasonable, I don't necessarily agree with the stated explanation for the move. The consensus for the move seems pretty clear. ~~ Jessintime (talk) 15:55, 4 June 2024 (UTC))[reply]
  • Relist (involved). It's worth noting this discussion was not about the common name of Twitter/X—the last RM on that closed weeks ago—it's about turning what was essentially a size split on recent Twitter/X history into an article that treats Twitter and X as logically distinct. I'm concerned by the closer refusing to clarify how they arrived at their conclusion. The discussion on their talk page indicates that they personally strongly believe X and Twitter to be independent entities, but they have been unwilling to indicate what evidence or comments in the original discussion brought them to that conclusion. I personally believe a policy-based close here would take heed of the fact that no one has provided sources indicating any evidence that there's a common logical distinction between X and Twitter besides the latter just being the new name under new ownership of the former; indeed, there is a plethora of sources indicating the two terms continue to be used interchangeably to refer to the same product both pre- and post-acquisition (e.g. [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16]). I tried to request specific clarity on how the discussion was interpreted by the closer ([17]), and received a dismissive reply that implied the result was somehow obvious and the closer had no interest in explaining it to the ~20 editors who don't see it as obvious ([18]). I'm concerned enough that the closer is using supervote rationales instead of referring to any other commenter's arguments to call this a bad close and request relisting. Dylnuge (TalkEdits) 15:59, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    A few comments here argue that this RM was exclusively about the common name of Twitter/X as separate platforms and that the articles were already distinct in their content. While I agree that an RM is an awkward (and perhaps wrong) venue to discuss the content scope of a separate but related article, I think it's incorrect to claim the RM wasn't about that when the closer, as part of their close, explicitly went and made changes to Twitter to convert it into being only about pre-acquisition Twitter ([19], [20]). The revision prior to the RM closure clearly shows that the Twitter article covered both pre- and post-acquisition ([21]). It seems inappropriate to dismiss oppose votes that discussed content forking issues or the lack of evidence that sources treat Twitter and X as distinct entities as out-of-scope when the RM is now being used to support a consensus for this. (Also, WP:CONTENTFORK is PAG, as is basing content on what reliable sources say, and I very much hope that "based in policy" is not being used as a shorthand for "uses lots of all caps project shortcut links"). Dylnuge (TalkEdits) 15:51, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    As a summary, Twitter under Elon Musk has always been about Twitter/X since the acquisition. It predominantly focused on Musk's involvement, but given he was CEO and dominant in his role, for a long time it covered all that X was developing into. Since he stepped down as CEO, the content continued to be added to that article, regardless of him no longer being CEO. More relevantly, very limited amount of content was ever added to the decaying (outdated to be polite) Twitter article, apart from to the lead which was merely a summary of the (grand)child article now known as X. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 19:35, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse (uninvolved). It seems to me the support !votes were more numerous and had generally better arguments, including a BLP issue, and that there is no technical reason to not have two articles on the same organisation (though doing so is editorial, so I did not discount these when reviewing the close - but it is not a reason not to.) SportingFlyer T·C 16:07, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I didn't actually read the closing statement but instead read the argument and closed based on how I would have closed and I got to the same result as the closer, but I have no problem if this is overturned because of the way the close was worded. I'm surprised people think this didn't reach a consensus, though. SportingFlyer T·C 21:40, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn (uninvolved). Wait, what? WP:Commonname is generally acceptable, but sometimes it does not align with common sense. This being the WP:Commonname that is the core of WP:AT? The solution is not perfect. The correct approach would be to rename Twitter to X. However, that isn't happening, and keeping the name as Twitter is meaningless since the product is now called X, what? If you believe microblogging is the same as X, no answer from me is going to convince you.? This is not an acceptable close, the explanation given is contrary to the relevant policy and is not compelling why it should be ignored. The discussion should be reopened and the closers opinion should be left as a !vote. Alpha3031 (tc) 05:33, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn (uninvolved), per Alpha3031 - additionally, based on the comments quoted by Alpha3031, the closer appears to have strong opinions regarding what these articles should be titled, and probably shouldn’t have closed this discussion. BilledMammal (talk) 05:52, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn (no consensus). (Uninvolved). The discussion did not reach consensus, and it was closed with a WP:Supervote. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:19, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse (involved). Reasonable close after carefully considered both support and oppose arguments, even if the closing statement was poorly written. Under a microscope, the oppose arguments were generally quite weak, and lacked policy or guidelines to back up the votes, whereas support relied predominantly upon common name arguments. For example referencing a false previous consensus that the article X (social media) shouldn't exist, concerns over confusion to readers, that Twitter/X are the same thing (although there has been more than one article about Twitter for a long time already), or otherwise that Twitter should have been moved to X (social media) - which is another moot point given there was no consensus to do so in previous RM. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 10:08, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Prior to this RM being closed, Twitter was an article about the platform known as both Twitter and X ([22]) and Twitter under Elon Musk was an article about Musk's acquisition ([23]); both of these revisions represent relatively stable versions of the respective articles. This has since been changed for both, initiated by the RM closer as an apparent implementation of the determined consensus. Either the RM isn't a valid source of consensus to make these changes or the arguments against them are in the right place; it can't be neither.
    Many of the arguments you list are based in policy and guidelines, by the way. The concerns over confusion to readers are explicitly recognized in the article title criteria (specifically, oppose voters raised concerns with recognizability, naturalness, and consistency). The concerns with whether sources definitively indicate that Twitter/X are the same thing or not is fundamental enough I don't think I need to cite the various policies that get invoked (just in case: WP:NOR, WP:V, WP:RS, WP:5P2). And while I'd generally agree that an RM is an awkward place to be arguing about content scoping policies, and this one in particular had murkiness in what was actually being discussed, the outcome can't involve changes to the content scope of both articles if the discussion precludes them. Dylnuge (TalkEdits) 17:40, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Twitter under Elon Musk (TUEM) was never an article about Musk's acquisition, maybe you're confusing the article with Acquisition of Twitter by Elon Musk? TUEM effectively developed into an article about Twitter since his acquisition, that was naturally inclusive of X. For example policy changes and development rarely featured in the Twitter article after the acquisition (partially based on article size). Thanks for referencing policy that other's failed to though. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 19:25, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It wasn't an article about a separate software platform before (I think you're correct in identifying it as a size split) and I'm not sure how else you'd describe the post-closure changes ([24]). The changes to Twitter are even more blatant ([25]). I'm not saying these changes shouldn't be made (I mean, I was saying that in the RM, but that's besides the point of this review), and I don't even particularly care what venue is used to get consensus on them as long as people are clearly informed of the discussion and its intent, but making an end-run around legitimate concerns by claiming the venue being used to justify the changes shouldn't be used to discuss them (or that comments aren't seasoned to your taste with project links) is frankly missing the forest for the trees. Dylnuge (TalkEdits) 19:56, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Initially Acquisition of Twitter by Elon Musk was split from twitter, and Twitter under Elon Musk was split from there. So yes it was a size split. I'm not interested in descriptions of post-closure changes, because this move review isn't about changes made to articles after the page was moved, that's completely irrelevant per MR. My issue was lack of citing policy (Wikipedia reasoning) for opposing such a move, as per the basic hierarchy of vote quality (reasoning backed by policy being higher than reasoning alone). A more experienced user wouldn't necessarily require policy citing for reasoning, but this is exactly why the vote quality increases when policy is cited, because you can't rely on an experienced editor to close an RM (case and point). I'm not arguing my vote was that good either, only that others were even worse. "Per user X, don't ping me again" was my favourite RfV based oppose for reference sake though. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 20:09, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist. < uninvolved > Above arguments for reopening and letting discussion continue are compelling. I don't think there was a firm consensus, and perhaps there was enough participation to warrant a close of "no consensus", but it wouldn't hurt to let editors continue what appears to be a talk that was still in progress – as yet unfinished. I think the RM should be given more time. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'er there 11:28, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn to no consensus. (involved) This close is patently ridiculous. There was a slim numerical majority in favour of the move, but not enough to establish a firm consensus. And it was not demonstrated at all that X and Twitter are different entities worthy of separate treatment. Indeed, the evidence presented would firmly establish that they're the same thing just under a new name, for which WP:NAMECHANGES would apply. There also appears to have been no critical analysis or explanation of the policy issues by the closer at all, and that close should be vacated and redone by an experienced closer.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:40, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn to no consensus Involved by virtue of previous discussion. Although I had supported the proposal in the previous RM on Talk:Twitter, this close lacks the necessary rationale that demonstrates an in depth analysis of the points raised in the discussion. The follow up discussion on the closer's talk page reinforced the perception of supervoting. Given that this is a contentious topic, a close from a more experienced editor will benefit the discussion. – robertsky (talk) 15:05, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn (involved) – Per Dylnuge, the close doesn't reflect that the issue was not merely whether the title was the common name but rather that the new title changes the article's scope and implies Twitter and X are separate entities. Graham (talk) 04:39, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse (very much involved). In the originating move request to move Twitter to X, I urged that we keep Twitter pre-2023 at one page, and post-2023 (upon Musk's acquisition) to a separate page about X, using the existing "Twitter under Elon Musk" page as a starting point for that. That move request (Twitter->X) can be seen at Talk:Twitter#Requested move 17 May 2024, and while there there was no support for that move, there was reasonable support for my proposed idea. That said, when that move closed, I was going to take time to develop a somewhat involved mix of page moves and content splits across multiple pages related to Twitter to make that step clean (In this move request, you can see that discussion with Horse's Eye Back in some depth related to this). However, Elijahpepe jumped the gun and made this move request, in absence of the other steps I felt were needed. That said, given that this has been moved, it becomes clear that there was support for it across two different move requests, even if the consensus wasn't well in the move's favor. I can reargue why this distinction between Twitter and X makes logical sense across all WP content P&G, but this isn't the place to reargue those. I do wish there was a bit of breathing room before this move request, but it could also be seen as ripping the bandaid off as it was likely to be necessary some point in the future. --Masem (t) 05:18, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Updated discussion with closer link to point to archive. -BRAINULATOR9 (TALK) 16:07, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist, or at the very least do not endorse (involved). The closer's explanation (or lack thereof) in the discussion, combined with their refusal to elaborate for the approximately 40% of voters who did not agree with the fundamental issue that led to this RM happening (whether Twitter and X are different entities), lead me to see this as a WP:BADNAC. Whether to relist (there was a decent amount of opinions cast, but also some active discussions), overturn to no consensus, or reclose with a better rationale as to why the move should happen, I'll leave that to the closer of this discussion; I chose relist just to do something. -BRAINULATOR9 (TALK) 16:07, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn to no consensus or relist Involved by virtue of previous discussion.. I previously supported such a move but did not participate directly in this discussion. There might be a consensus to move but it's not a strong consensus and an obviously controversial move like this one deserves a clear closing rational from a user in good standing with the project which was not achieved here. Esolo5002 (talk) 17:01, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist or overturn (uninvolved). The RM discussion saw various arguments discussed in detail by participants on both sides of the debate, and – reviewing the close and the subsequent discussion on the closer's talk page – I'm not convinced that the closer has sufficiently analyzed those arguments. On their talk page, the closer expresses their personal belief that X and Twitter are meaningfully distinct platforms; this question was a major locus of debate in the RM, but the closer has refused to provide any analysis of that debate, of whether either side was more convincing than the other, etc. We are left with only their assertion that the difference between X and Twitter is too obvious to discuss. The closer also noted that supporters of the move hold the numerical majority, which is not a particularly compelling claim in a 29–20 discussion; clearly both sides had significant numerical strength, making it inappropriate to place much weight on raw numbers. On the whole, the close feels to me like a supervote hinged upon vote-counting.
    I note as well that several participants in the RM discussed the fact that the proposed change would involve a rescoping of the article, away from its previous focus on a period of the site's history and to a focus on the social media platform itself. The closer's only engagement with this question of scope was to state that I request fellow editors to make the necessary adjustments to restructure the document, including moving content from Twitter, to satisfy its new title. Instead of making any effort to analyze the discussion around article scope, or performing WP:POSTMOVE cleanup to reflect their change, the closer simply added an infobox to the article and did not make any other relevant changes I could identify. This further suggests to me that they were likely not fully engaging with the discussion as a whole. ModernDayTrilobite (talkcontribs) 19:36, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn - I suggest an RfC (uninvolved) - This move is complicated. It involves more than a title change for one article: it involves a signficant scope change for two articles. I think more consideration is needed on the parent page.

    From 17 May to 24 May, an RM that the article Twitter be renamed to X (social network) was held. It ended as "not moved" after a lot of discussion. Less than an hour after that RM was closed, the RM to move the spinoff Twitter under Elon Musk to X (social network) was opened.

    However, this RM is more than a retitling. In effect, the move rescopes the main page Twitter from (A social media service named X, formerly named Twitter) into (A defunct social media service named Twitter, the distinct "predecessor" of X).

    It turns the page Twitter under Elon Musk from (A WP:SIZESPLIT article covering the service over the last two years under its new ownership, at more length than the main page) into X (social network), (A new social media service created in 2023, the distinct "successor" of Twitter).

    This is a major content fork. I believe it requires a clear consensus on the parent page (Twitter), rather than a shaky consensus (as others have discussed) on a spinoff page. I think holding an RfC would be wise. HenryMP02 (talk) 23:14, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn (involved) I still believe that moving Twitter would've been the much better option than what transpired. Unfortunately there's been no consensus for that, time and time again. XtraJovial (talkcontribs) 04:31, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn (uninvolved) per HenryMP02 above. I find the closer’s response on their talk page to be quite poor as well. Mach61 07:45, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn (uninvolved). No disrespect to User:Anoopspeaks, but this one should probably not be a non-admin close. As User:HenryMP02 mentions above, this move essentially forces a split of the Twitter/X articles, and that should have been discussed better prior to this being nominated. 162 etc. (talk) 04:17, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse (involved) Close was clearly right and based on consensus Isla🏳️‍⚧ 10:22, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Isla May you elaborate as to how the close was justified, seeing as many people disagree with it? Mach61 11:31, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Because of the number of votes being about 60 percent Isla🏳️‍⚧ 11:34, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:NOTAVOTE? Alpha3031 (tc) 07:58, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn (involved) There is no evidence that the closer has followed the normal expected process in evaluating the consensus. I can find no evidence that the arguments were evaluated, and it is difficult for me to accept that such highly contested move could be closed as anything other than 'No consensus' unless the Oppose arguments were utter and incomprehensible waffle, which they were not. Melmann 11:10, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn to no consensus (involved). The closer clearly has a strong opinion on the result and has been unable to explain their vote besides asserting that it's obviously the correct one, despite it going directly against a better attended RM on the parent article mere days before this RM was opened that was unable to find consensus on a common name. These articles should be handled in parallel and after a well-planned RFC instead of haphazard RMs. -- Patar knight - chat/contributions 05:25, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist (which means move it back and re-open for someone else to close). While I agree with the closer's decision, the lack of explanation in the RM itself, and especially afterward, is simply unacceptable. Pro tip: if you can't coherently summarize the policy-based reasons for the move based on the discussion for posterity, don't close. Some of the reasons provided in the post-close discussion on the closer's talk page, and here, are concerning. I fully agree with Amakuru here: "There also appears to have been no critical analysis or explanation of the policy issues by the closer at all, and that close should be vacated and redone by an experienced closer." --В²C 01:51, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist or remand to further discussion: when I closed the Twitter RM last month, I did so with the expectation we would not be rushing into another RM, but instead we'd have a cycle of informal discussion leading to an RfC and then maybe an RM. I'm slightly miffed that didn't happen, but I understand it. The RM itself clearly didn't have a consensus anyway. Sceptre (talk) 18:07, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Engineer's Building airstrike (closed)

The following is an archived debate of the move review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Engineer's Building airstrike (talk|edit|history|logs|links|archive|watch) (RM) (Discussion with closer)

This is a straightforward supervote, with the closer deciding several things. The first being that "massacre" is non-neutral, and that the other pages within the same category of pages with the title "massacre" are not relevant. The close explicitly endorses maintaining systemic bias by refusing to engage with the fact that events that are titled "massacre" related to the ongong war in Gaza are not relevant to whether or not this event should so titled. A substantial majority of editors disagreed with the proposal and further disagreed with the claim that "massacre" is POV or that the other articles in the same category of pages are not relevant. That was ignored by a straightforward supervote. If the closer felt that their view was that this should be moved they should have voted instead of imposing their view over the consensus of editors opposed to the move. nableezy - 21:47, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Endorse (involved). WP:NCENPOV is clear that "massacre" is a POV term that should only be used if it is part of the common name or part of the generally accepted descriptor. Those supporting didn’t even attempt to argue that either was the case, just that this was the "right" descriptor based on their personal opinions. As such, the closer acted appropriately, assessing consensus not by counting votes but by the quality of the arguments given on the various sides of an issue, as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy. BilledMammal (talk) 03:51, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse (involved). I would primarily reference the closing statement itself, which was well put and echoes the comment above by BilledMammal. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:21, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse (uninvolved). The vote tally was roughly equal, but this was a fairly straightforward discussion in terms of what the rule is regarding WP:COMMONNAME, and none of the oppose !votes could make the argument that their preferred article name was part of the WP:COMMONNAME and in one instance actually agreed with those supporting the move that the old title was not the WP:COMMONNAME. Good close, well within policy, clearly not a supervote. SportingFlyer T·C 18:14, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse (involved) per BilledMammal and WP:COMMONNAME. The oppose votes were entirely POV opinions as to what the incident should be called rather than what it is called in reliable sources. These were rightly given much less weight than those votes which cited Wikipedia naming conventions. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:12, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse (uninvolved) The opposing !votes didnt cite any policy for the most part and some made arguments such as "30 times more Palestinians than Israelis have been killed in this conflict" that are not relevant and the vote should be excluded from counting. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 21:44, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse (uninvolved): in discussions about page titles, ad hoc conformity to what sources use generally triumphs over attempts at applying logic to titling, as was the case here. Mach61 18:53, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse (uninvolved) per BilledMammal and Necrothesp. XtraJovial (talkcontribs) 18:07, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ill just say here that there is a severe NPOV issue in the way these things are handled. At Talk:Nir_Oz_massacre#Requested_move_1_June_2024 currently underway, you see users making arguments that were rejected in this move request. Anybody care to wager my dollars to your donuts on how that move request is going to be closed? Anyway, consider this move review withdrawn, despite its incredibly inconsistent closure with respect to the other articles in this topic area. nableezy - 18:40, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the move review of the page listed in the close of this review. Please do not modify it.
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