Wikipedia:Featured article review/H.D./archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by DrKay via FACBot (talk) 7:24, 15 October 2022 (UTC) [1].

H.D.

Notified: Ceoil, WP Gender Studies, WP LGBT studies, WP London, WP Lehigh Valley, WP Women writers, WP Women, WP Bio, WP Pennsylvania, WP Women's history, WP Poetry, talk page notice 2022-03-07

I am nominating this featured article for review because there is some uncited text and after having tried to source some of it and read a bit about the subject I found there is some rather important info either missing or uncited.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 07:59, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • I see what you mean. Some problems are quick to fix, like the external links in the bibliography, which can become footnotes instead. I do think the article is rescuable, though it would be easier if there was a really good, recent biography to rely on for filling gaps. I would have liked to find something from 2000 or later, but even the HD society doesn't point to one. The best sources might be:
    • this 1995 bio
    • from 2011, the MLA Approaches to Teaching H.D.’s Poetry and Prose might have some very useful overviews
    • Susan Friedman’s article in the Dictionary of Literary Biography, vol. 45, 2nd series (volume is entitled, Modern American Poets) - HD society calls it "excellent and highly recommended"
    • Herself Defined: the Poet H.D. and Her World, by Barbara Guest, an "authorized biography" from the 80s that still seems to be in use
Before I did my source search, I was more alarmed by the fact that the sources in the article are a little old. But now that I have looked for something newer, I am a little less worried that they are out of date. Or, if they are, there isn't an obvious better source. I am pretty busy this week but may see if I can find some of these sources and start poking. ~ L 🌸 (talk) 16:58, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Its a fair nom of an old FAR save and does need to be brought up to standard. The recent FAR driven overhaul of the closely related Imagism[2] will help as is recent, so have the (the near identical) sources close to hand and they are fresh in mind. This one is a lost closer to my heart than say Heavy Metal (although as listening to Sunn O))) now), so slotting highly on priority list. Assessment and estimated timeline to follow. Ceoil (talk) 23:51, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have gone through some other poetry FAs and seen some have an own article on works or bibliography like Stephen Crane or Maya Angelou. Other FAs also have a selection of works included in the article on the author. I'd personally prefer an own article for her bibliography, but I am not so much into the subject. Or maybe her works could be presented more in detail as in some of the other FAs. What is your opinion on the matter Ceoil? - Paradise Chronicle
Usually would go for a separate article, but think here the section (now retitled "selected works" so we don't have to be exhaustive and converted to two columns so it doesn't take up too much space), we have is concise and manageable. Not opposed to spinning out however. Ceoil (talk) 19:41, 9 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As an update, am traveling for another week or so, so do not have access to my book sources. Also have ordered [3] which looks promising for expansion. Ceoil (talk) 20:04, 9 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Having seen your effort in ordering a book on her, I also made some online research and intend to work on the article a bit while you are away for the next week or so.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 00:12, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Am really delighted to hear that :) Ceoil (talk) 01:55, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, I am getting into it. On her relationship with Bryher there seemed to be quite much written and Norman Holmes Pearson, the holder of her copyrights is not mentioned yet in the article. They seemed to have had an extensive, decades-long professional relationship, with him publishing her works also after her death. H.D.'s daughter Perdita seemed to be working with him during WW 2 in the secret service.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 19:32, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As an update, my copy arrived yesterday, but am still at the reading through stage. Ceoil (talk) 13:01, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • How are these two thoughts -- in the same sentence -- related? She met Pound in 1901, and attended Bryn Mawr College between 1904 and 1906.
  • I thought innovate was a verb?? championed her as an innovate poet.
  • Why "already" ... no prior context for this ... By this time Pound had already relocated to England,
  • ???? In 1896, hes was appointed Flower Professor of Astronomy
    I can't explain this, copy or paste or something <hangs head, gets coat>. "Hes" and "flower" removed. Ceoil (talk) 19:46, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    That was added by me, but I made a typo on the hes which meant to be a his. Her father was really the Flower Professor of Astronomy in memory of a Mister Flower.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 18:59, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • ???? After she studied at home until 1910.
    Reworded, but intended was "After, she studied...". Doh. Ceoil (talk) 19:46, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't understand the section heading "H.D. Imagiste" ... we shouldn't repeat the article title in a section heading, and why not just, Imagist?
    • It's not nonsensical, and the couple sources I'm skimming do focus on Pound's "H.D. Imagiste" inscription on her poem mentioned in the section. She also places some importance on that moment. Still, Imagism might be a more descriptive heading. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:40, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • "H.D. Imagiste" is a thing...amongst aficionados; but we are not writing for them. Sect is retitled as "Imagism", but may become "London and Imagism". Ceoil (talk) 19:56, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • ???? He was impressed by her awareness of the aspiration's for contemporary poetry and free verse which had been discussing with Aldington, with whom he had shared plans to reform through tanka and the brevity of haiku. ????
    • Completely re-written as "...(Pound had) already begun to meet with other poets at the Eiffel Tower restaurant in Soho to discuss plans to reform contemporary poetry through free verse, the brevity of the tanka and haiku forms, and the removal of all unnecessary verbiage from poetry." Ceoil (talk) 19:46, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Stopped there, do not understand what is happening here, but unless much more work is planned, it looks like we should be moving to FARC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:31, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Firefangledfeathers does this article interest you? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:55, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It sure does! How can I help? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:59, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
See my post just above ... I started at the top and found all sorts of problems. Thanks for helping! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:49, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I fixed a few (hopefully). In general, I think the copy-editing/clarity issues alone are significant. The citations themselves need some fixing up. I'll dig into it. I have no informed opinion on whether fixes can happen during FAR or if a move to FARC is needed. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:40, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
With you, Ceoil and Victoriaearle on it (3x competence), theoretically a move to FARC should be avoidable. Thanks again for helping out, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:43, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
To update, Firefangledfeathers and Victoria have done a lot of heavy lifting re prose, and I'm combing through. Will ping again when ready, and thanks so much for the review. Ceoil (talk) 19:49, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've been working from the bottom up and very slowly (well, that's an understatement!). I am familiar with H. D's story - at least the early years, but came to it via the sources to do with Pound and it's better to get her out from his shadow where she's lingered (as Ceoil has suggested), so there's more reading involved. The article makes sense to me, so maybe it's just an issue of rewording? Will continue to watch to see how it develops. P.s I don't see this in FARC territory at all. Victoria (tk) 13:07, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, so now I understand why I found so many problems at the top! Thx, Victoria ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:28, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like it's under control and others are working the page so I'll go ahead and step away now. Victoria (tk) 18:49, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Deservedly after so much tinkering, fixing and smoothing. Your edits were significant improvements. Ceoil (talk) 19:53, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I can't decipher the problem here, left an inline comment:

  • Aldington, Richard; Gates, Norman. Richard Aldington: An Autobiography in Letters. Pennsylvania State University Press, 1992. ISBN ‎978-0-2710-0832-5 Parameter error in Parameter error in {{ISBN}}: Missing ISBN.: Invalid ISBN.

What's odd is that it links to the correct ISBN on Amazon, so what is the error? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:03, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Same prob with the (different isbn) on amazon.co.uk. I let it in assuming it was a local to wiki bug (these things happen, as we are seeing with the duplinks tool. Ceoil (talk) 20:06, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • The template documentation for the isbn template says "Since invalid ISBNs are sometimes used in publications, it is possible to disable the validity check for individual ISBNs given as parameters. In order to do so, add invalid?=yes (with ? replaced by the parameter number 1 to 9) to the template. In this case, the article will be added to Category:Pages with listed invalid ISBNs." so this ain't necessarily a problem and there appears to be a work-around to kill the error message. Hog Farm Talk 20:11, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, I suspect it's a Wiki bug ... but can we sort the editor/author issue I left in the inline comment ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:11, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I'll look into it after work if nobody else addresses it first - I have an idea what's going on but it may not be right (it could be a collection of writings by Aldington edited by Gates). Hog Farm Talk 20:15, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    The error suppression worked: [4] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:15, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Great. One to remember as has happened before. The sources is now listed as Gates only, as its his introduction that is being used as a source. Ceoil (talk) 20:20, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    But irritating is that it is still listed in an error category, that will cause it to show on FA error report ... so I added back the note ... <grrrr ... > SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:24, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Which version of Levenson is being used ? The ISBN listed goes here (New Directions publisher, 1983, a different book), while the citation indicates Cambridge University Press, 1986, which has a different ISBN: [5] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:17, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm. The quote its supporting appears in a lot of books; am going to try and remove Levenson and cite to another (in use) source. The list of sources is anyway getting too long, as not all are core. Ceoil (talk) 21:48, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Now reff'd to King (1981), a book that is specifically about H.D. and Pound rather than a gneral survey of Imagism (and correspondingly doesn't throw up an isbn error). Nice spot! Ceoil (talk) 22:01, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

To note, I imported text from Victoria and Sarah's work on Ezra Pound in this diff. I think I followed att, but mentioning here if further needs to be done as this is the place for confessions. Ceoil (talk) 10:54, 9 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

'Tis good ... you attributed in edit summary, per WP:CWW, so I don't have to go and add a {{Copied}} to talk! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:58, 9 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Notes that don't match Sources:

Missing:

  • Blau 1981
  • Chisholm 1992
  • Duncan 2011
  • Evans 2010
  • Guest 1985
  • Harrell 2010
  • Hughes 1990
  • Morris 2003
  • Taylor 2001

Short note does not match Source listing:

  • Lohr Martz, (1983), p. 299

Years don't match

  • McCabe

Inconsistent format in short note:

  • Sword, Helen. (1995), pp. 347–62 (last name only ?)

I had to put these sources into a spreadhseet to check this; if the notes were converted to sfns, errors would be caught easily. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:17, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Still on the docket. I'll need a bit of time after Ceoil's pass to work on that. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:19, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
But the errors will still have to be sorted ... McCabe is all over the place. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:20, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't disagree. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:25, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Sandy, thanks for the list. I've fixed a couple of mistakes: fixed the transcription mistake for McCabe (2022 > 2002); removed the first name from Martz & Sword. The following sources are currently not used, hence not showing up in footnotes:

  • Blau DuPlessis 1981
  • Chisholm 1992
  • Duncan 2011
  • Evans 2010
  • Guest is quoted in Kakutani (NYT), otherwise not used
  • Harrell 2010
  • Hughes 1990
  • Morris 2003
  • Taylor 2002

Once the lit review and reading is done they can be removed. I've not been doing any of the reading but there's a fair amount and don't want to presume at this point that a source will or will not be used. Ceoil can speak to that. Victoria (tk) 20:15, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:18, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks muchly Victoria. As an update

Update: I would very much like Firefangledfeathers to begin the conversion to snf if they are still interested and have time, and SandyGeorgia, Paradise Chronicle and Victoria to begin a final review when they have a chance. Thanks all (incl Nikkimaria for endless patience, eeek). Ceoil (talk) 23:14, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ceoil, I have to get through Joan of Arc; ping me after Firefangledfeathers is done if I forget to get here next. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:42, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
np Sandy, and youre help/view is appreciated as always. Ceoil (talk) 00:45, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the ping! I'll get started. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:18, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Happy days. Ceoil (talk) 03:09, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have added some info on her daughter Perdita, who is described at the section Legacy. I usually add info on family and children in personal life, but in the case of H.D. I am not sure if that works as well. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 20:01, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ping received. Will take a run through when I can. Victoria (tk) 19:36, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Victoriaearle pls ping me when you're done so I won't get in your way ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:45, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know when I can get to it and am happy to go last, after all the changes have been made, etc. If Ceoil is traveling it's possible I might be able to address points that raised during his absence. Victoria (tk) 19:57, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
P.s regarding the ref reformatting - I've not looked closely but noted that Barnstone is "Barnstone-Doolittle" in the short note. We're not citing Doolittle, we're citing Barnstone. It worked in the unformatted refs, but with templates we may need to split out Barnstone into the separate chapters, "Introduction", "Readers Notes", "Life" to get it right. Victoria (tk) 20:10, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
On the radar! Trilogy is not the only book affected by this. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 20:39, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Great. Sorry if it sounds as though I'm being picky. Victoria (tk) 23:44, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No apology needed! I went with a style that works for me but am open to feedback. I'm now done (I hope) with converting the references and citations. I'm not sure who is up next exactly, so I'm pinging both Victoriaearle and SandyGeorgia. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:17, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Also, an update on the unused sources. It's now just:
  • Evans 2010
  • H.D. 1979
  • Laity 1996
  • and Lucas 1993
. Laity seems like the main missed opportunity here. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:26, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Victoria may be out for health reasons for the rest of the week; the remaining items, and those on talk, are probably best left for her return, although I'll start looking in as I get time. Great work so far !! Thanks for doing the tedious stuff. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:27, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry Firefangledfeathers, I got sidetracked. But I've been watching and will try to get back to this in the next few days. I definitely need another read through and, if possible, address any of the issues on the talk page. It's possible we'll have to wait for Ceoil to surface. Victoria (tk) 19:05, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Please ping me to review after you're done (and depending on when Ceoil surfaces). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:06, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Will try to get to it during the week. Victoria (tk) 21:25, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hello. Just for the record am resurfacing, and delighted with all the work since. Trying to catch up. Ceoil (talk) 22:51, 2 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think this needs to be closed one way or another. For happy reasons, I'm probably not around for the next few weeks. However, think Firefangled and Victoria have done great work, the page is much better, weather it retains the star or not, the work was not in vain; we now have a vastly improved article - to acknowledge the heavy duty work by both. Ceoil (talk) 22:46, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'll do a read-through then. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:50, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm free to work on any issues that come up in your read-through. Pseudo-Pseudo-Dionysius thinks they'll be back with is in about a week to overhaul the Selected works and maybe some other improvements. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 22:58, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Nikki is always very patience, but to be fair to her nerves.....22:52, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

I'll try to read through this over the weekend with an eye to seeing if this is ready to keep, although I have to admit that the only poetry I've read in the last year or so is the book of Psalms. Hog Farm Talk 22:36, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Starting in since Hog Farm is busy.

I'm stopping there, as this is more than I should have put on the main FAR page, and will resume later on the talk page with the World War I section. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:59, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Sandy. I knocked out the easy ones as noted above. I'm sure there's more that needs to be reworked in the lead and have been hoping to leave that to the end. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 20:49, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Once you're through these (lead last), I'll continue on talk here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:10, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Once Sandy's satisfied, ping me and I'll take a look. Sorry I could get to this earlier, I got busy last week. Hog Farm Talk 22:15, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A couple more done, with some judgment calls made. See comments above. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:00, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Rest are done! Please review and let me know. My eyes are on the talk page for the next set when you're ready. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:11, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
On it today ... at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review/H.D./archive2#SG comments. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:25, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Good progress made on talk page, but there are still a few bits that need to be tidied when Ceoil can get to them (not right away), and we'll ping in Hog Farm for a look once Ceoil has gotten to that, and Firefangledfeathers has had a pass as well ... so Hog Farm you're off the hook for a week or two. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:09, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Update talk page work still underway. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:30, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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