Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2017 February 13

Skyroof (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Since George Ho requested an redirect at WP:AFC/R. Should be recreated as an redirect? KGirlTrucker81 ^{huh? what I've been doing} 15:16, 13 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Why should we redirect one particular brand of automobile sunroof to the generic term? The The AFC/R says it's a synonymous term, but it's a brand. DGG ( talk ) 17:40, 13 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not to mention that there are multiple other companies with the same name, not to mention half a dozen (at least) cafes and restaurants. No, this needs to remain red. Black Kite (talk) 00:06, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There are many words that are used in company names (e.g. "Mart", "Market", "Pizzeria", even the words "Cafe" and "Restaurant" themselves) but which still have a generic meaning separate from any specific company. This is an example of such a word, and as such, it should redirect to the generic meaning. —Lowellian (reply) 10:51, 16 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Permanent link to George Ho's request at WP:AFC/R, where he provided three sources: [1][2][3]. Cunard (talk) 09:41, 16 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose populating mainspace with tradename redirects. "Skyroof" is not a topic covered at the proposed target, it is merely mentioned. This is not enough for a redirect. The wikipedia search engine more than suffices. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:58, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• What about sky roof, which currently redirects to sunroof? George Ho (talk) 08:49, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are too many redirects. They used to be helpful, when the Wikipedia search engine was no good, but that was almost 10 years ago. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:32, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Unprotect title, allow creation of the redirect, and list at WP:RFD. The full create protection reasoning was "Excessive spamming" after promotional articles had been repeatedly recreated at the title. The page was not protected because of the repeated recreations of a redirect.

  Wikipedia:Redirect#Reasons for not deleting says:

  However, avoid deleting such redirects if:

  5. Someone finds them useful. Hint: If someone says they find a redirect useful, they probably do.

  Because an experienced editor believes a redirect would be useful, I support unprotecting the title to allow the creation of the redirect.

  Discussion about whether a redirect is suitable belongs at WP:RFD, not WP:DRV. WP:DRV should consider arguments about the suitability of a redirect only when an WP:RFD resulted in the deletion of the page (from Wikipedia:Deletion review#Purpose, "significant new information has come to light since a deletion that would justify recreating the deleted page"). Note that Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2008 December 4#Skyroof → Sunroof was closed as "NA" because the article was restored and sent to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Skyroof.

  Cunard (talk) 09:41, 16 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• At Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2008 December 4#Skyroof → Sunroof,

  the AfD nominator Lowellian (talk · contribs) supported retention of the redirect of Skyroof to Sunroof:

  Delete and redirect. The article about the trademarked Skyroof should be deleted, as the product is non-notable, and "skyroof" is used in casual speech as an alternative term for general sunroofs. The redirect to sunroof should be kept, as the two terms are sometimes confused.

  That the AfD nominator supported a redirect indicates there is a good chance that Skyroof would pass an WP:RFD even though it was deleted at AfD.

  Cunard (talk) 09:41, 16 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Recreate as redirect. The original AFD decision to delete was for the spam/promotional article that then-existed at that time. It was not an AFD decision to delete the later redirect, which was created after the deletion of the spam/promo article. The deletion of the redirect was a unilateral action taken afterwards by another editor, without any AFD discussion or even PRODing the page to allow for discussion. Skyroof is used in common speech as a synonym for sunroof, and as such should redirect to sunroof. —Lowellian (reply) 10:46, 16 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think that is true. A sunroof is a ceiling window in a car. A skyroof is a big ceiling window in a building. A similar thing is the skylight, which is a small window in a building roof. The wanted redirect is not right for typical English, and only matches one trade name. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:01, 16 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The deletion of the redirect was a unilateral action taken afterwards by another editor, without any AFD discussion or even PRODing the page to allow for discussion. – I was unaware that a redirect was created after the AfD was closed as "delete". The deletion summary ("courtesy deletion of nn term") is not a valid speedy deletion criterion, so I support overturning the speedy deletion and restoring the original redirect that had been created in 2008 rather than creating a new redirect.

    Cunard (talk) 09:23, 17 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• recreate redirect Skyroof and moonroof appear to be common names for a sunroof? A Google search gets enough hits it seems like a reasonable redirect ([4]). No objection at all to a RfD. Hobit (talk) 21:41, 16 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Discount the trademark capitalised Skyroof, look at lower case skyroof, on google, but more importantly on Wikipedia, and the picture is very different. The redirect relies on a bad assumption. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:22, 17 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think you are likely correct, but this doesn't feel like a thing that DRV should be making the call on. I'd rather allow the redirect and let RfD sort it out. But I'll admit I don't think it matters much. Hobit (talk) 04:17, 17 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Skyroof and moonroof appear to be common names for a sunroof? – Hobit (talk · contribs), yes, you are correct that "skyroof" is a common name for a "sunroof". I found sources discussing cars from Nissan, General Motors, Audi, and Honda that either use the terms interchangeably or note that the automobile manufacturer uses "skyroof" in place of "sunroof".

  The sources confirm that Lowellian (talk · contribs) is correct that "Skyroof is used in common speech as a synonym for sunroof".
  
  Here are sources about "skyroof" and "sunroof":

  1. "Meet Nissan's cultured 4x4". North Yorkshire County Publications. 2001-09-28. Archived from the original on 2017-02-17. Retrieved 2017-02-17.

     The article notes:

     One of the reasons people buy a four-by-four is for its high-drive position, and the X-Trail offers this together with plenty of glass for all-round viewing. Also every model has a powered sunroof (Nissan prefers to use the word "skyroof" presumably feeling the word "sun" is over-stepping the mark in this country), and it is bigger than most.

     This demonstrates that automobile manufacturer Nissan has used "skyroof" to refer to "sunroof".
  2. Automotive Engineering International, Volume 110. SAE International. 2002. p. 32. Retrieved 2017-02-17.

     The book notes:

     ... included the new, scaled-down "son of Hummer," the H2 SUV with a 6.0L V8 that is slated for production (see earlier story). It has a reconfigurable passenger rear bulkhead to extend the load area. Its sunroof (called a skyroof) is GM's biggest ever.

     This demonstrates that automobile manufacturer General Motors (GM) has used "skyroof" to refer to "sunroof".
  3. Parmar, Neil (2012-12-29). "Supersizing the sunroof". MarketWatch. Archived from the original on 2017-02-17. Retrieved 2017-02-17.

     The article notes:

     The sunroof is rising again, and this time the views are bigger than ever.

     ...

     Car makers market them with a multitude of names: Ford advertises its “multipanel vista roof,” while Audi pushes its “dual-pane open sky roof system”—with a wind deflector to minimize noise. The Mercedes-Benz sunroof, which lets drivers darken or lighten the glass at the press of a button, is dubbed “magic sky control.”

     This demonstrates that automobile manufacturer Audi has used "skyroof" to refer to "sunroof".
  4. Shimizu, Kaho (2005-04-08). "Honda hopes compact wagon debut snaps slide". The Japan Times. Archived from the original on 2017-02-17. Retrieved 2017-02-17.

     The article notes:

     Honda Motor Co. said Thursday it will start selling its first compact station wagon this week.

     The Airwave features a so-called sky roof that measures 1.1 meters × 77 cm ...

     ...

     The sunroof has an electric sunshade that opens and closes in three stages. The roof itself does not open.

     ...

     Although not many vehicle models have sunroofs in Japan, Honda said they are gaining in popularity in Europe. It believes sunroofs will also catch on in Japan.

     “I think we can appeal to customers,” as the versions with a sky roof cost 100,000 yen more than those without, Dobashi said.

     The article uses "sky roof" and "sunroof" interchangeably.

     This demonstrates that automobile manufacturer Honda has used "skyroof" to refer to "sunroof".

  5. Simister, John (2002-03-09). "Motoring: This is no deckchair on wheels". The Independent. Archived from the original on 2017-02-17. Retrieved 2017-02-17.

     The article notes:

     Did you ever hanker after a Citroen 2CV? You may not have longed for its lolloping ride, its meagre pace or a crashworthiness on a level with that of a damp cardboard box, but that happy, curvy shape and that roll-right-back sunroof did help make motoring a refreshingly unserious activity. And now, in 2002, it's time for the updated, reconfigured remake.

     Citroen, once again tuning into its history of innovation and auto-icon creation, is perfectly placed to exploit today's hunger for individualism. The 2CV is not mentioned by name in any of the verbiage that supports the introduction of the new C3, but the visual reference is clear. This time, however, the open-to-the-sky roof is optional and made of glass.

     The article uses "sky roof" and "sunroof" interchangeably.
  6. Toljagic, Mark (2011-11-19). "Audi Q7 owners both rant and rave". Toronto Star. Archived from the original on 2017-02-17. Retrieved 2017-02-17.

     The article notes:

     In the case of this driver of a 2007 Audi Q7 sport utility, a leaking sunroof, electrical glitches, a broken armrest, big fuel bills and a weird MMI controller that flits between languages were enough to sour the experience.

     ...

     Sunroof leaks can wreak havoc with the Q7's electronics - entire instrument panels have gone dark - and the multi-panel skyroof may jam on occasion, too.

  7. Torpey, Mike (2002-03-22). "On the X-Trail for success". Liverpool Echo. Archived from the original on 2017-02-17. Retrieved 2017-02-17.

     The article notes:

     Pull back a cover and something Nissan calls a Skyroof is revealed – definitely one of the best sunroofs around.

  8. Lennox, Graeme; Steele, Liz (2004-06-06). "X-TRAIL NOW HAS EXTRA HORSE POWER - Our top test team track down a 4x4 that has it all good looks, competitive price, quiet diesel engine and it packs a powerful performance, too". Daily Record. Archived from the original on 2017-02-17. Retrieved 2017-02-17.

     The article notes:

     The X-Trail's 'skyroof' is double the size of a conventional sunroof. The whole cabin is flooded with light.

  9. Grodnik, Jim (2003-07-18). "2004 Maxima joins the Nissan revolution". San Mateo County Times. Archived from the original on 2017-02-17. Retrieved 2017-02-17.

     The article notes:

     Another innovation - more of a novelty, really - is the "skyroof," which is standard equipment on all Maximas. It's a long, narrow strip of glass over both the front and back seats. Not really a sunroof - it can't be opened - but it does have a sliding, two-part front and rear cover. A standard sunroof is also available.

Cunard (talk) 09:23, 17 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• These uses derive from the tradename for a particular early sunroof. No denying that these uses occur, but skyroof is also used, unrelated to the tradename for an sunroof, for large ceiling windows in buildings. This non-trademark ceiling window use preceded the trademark and is unrelated to sunroof, a term specific to automobiles. The redirect is therefore inappropriate. Readers may instead be looking for skylight. Anyone arriving at the title "skyroof" is better served by the Wikipedia search engine, which yields a selection of both uses. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:04, 17 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The common use of skyroof is to refer to sunroof, which has been amply demonstrated in this discussion by multiple citations by multiple users, while no common usage for the term to refer to skylight has been demonstrated. Furthermore, even if common usage of skyroof to refer to skylight were to be demonstrated, in that case, a redlink for skyroof would still be inappropriate. Instead, in that case, either skyroof should redirect to sunroof with a hatlink indicating an alternate usage to refer to skylight, or skyroof should be made a disambiguation page listing both sunroof and skylight. Either way, skyroof should not be a redlink. —Lowellian (reply) 11:29, 17 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Undelete/resurrect the redirect revision to sunroof. Sources interchange both terms. Best to do so for the benefit of Wikipedia. George Ho (talk) 17:51, 17 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, the target article might need some improvements, but that's a different issue. George Ho (talk) 17:53, 17 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep deleted. The posited redirect is completely inaccurate - a generic skyroof is a panoramic window in a building, not a car. Why do we want to give readers inaccurate information, apart from promoting a particular car brand? Meanwhile, Skyroof (capitalised "S") is a single trade name for a car sunroof, but shares its name with dozens of other companies making everything from sunroofs to skylights to unmbrellas, garden parasols, astronomy software and even air conditioning. Meanwhile there are also dozens of cafes, bars and restaurants with the same name. Many of these are going to be notable - what happens when, inevitably, someone writes an article about one? Black Kite (talk) 18:46, 17 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the first point, there is nothing inaccurate about this information. Multiple citations from multiple users have demonstrated that a skyroof is used as a synonym for sunroof, while skyroof has not been demonstrated to be used as a common synonym for skylight. Furthermore, even if common usage of skyroof to refer to skylight were to be demonstrated, in that case, a redlink for skyroof would still be inappropriate. Instead, in that case, either skyroof should redirect to sunroof with a hatlink indicating an alternate usage to refer to skylight, or skyroof should be made a disambiguation page listing both sunroof and skylight. Either way, skyroof should not be a redlink. Regarding the second point, there is no notable company known as "skyroof". The word may used within the names of other companies; however, not only has no such company been demonstrated in this discussion as notable, but there are also many words that are used in company names (e.g. "Mart", "Market", "Pizzeria", even the words "Cafe" and "Restaurant" themselves) which still have a generic meaning separate from any specific company. This is an example of such a word, and as such, it should redirect to the generic meaning. —Lowellian (reply) 01:34, 18 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There is {{R from incorrect name}}. George Ho (talk) 19:12, 17 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That's for redirects that are either common typos of common names (i.e. Antartic Treaty), with alternative capitalisation, with ligatures or other non-standard spelling, or from US postal abbreviations (i.e. Albany, CA) none of which are relevant to the subject in hand. Black Kite (talk) 20:10, 17 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You mean What about {{R from misspelling}} and/or {{R from miscapitalisation}}? George Ho (talk) 21:44, 17 February 2017 (UTC); edited. 21:45, 17 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

These particular redirect templates are not relevant, since skyroof, as a common synonym, is not an incorrect name, misspelling, or miscapitalization. —Lowellian (reply) 01:38, 18 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]