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What Michael Knowles wrote was misleading because Professor Kowalski’s contribution to the ALP newsletter did not complain about Professor Hewitt nor does the contribution by Professor Pereira. In fact, Professor Hewitt was not even mentioned.
It looks like Hewitt fell into a classic Wikipedia trap. He thought that the primary purpose was to improve articles and that the normal rules of professional conduct applied.
Some amateurs here got on the wrong side of highly technical arguments with computer science professionals. Replay of the Global Warming fiasco? 76.102.7.120 (talk) 19:34, 19 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No this isn't the same as global warming. It's one person promoting their work (correctly or not) and others pushing back, probably too hard. I've seen similar issues elsewhere on Wikipedia--academics can be very prickly about getting credit for their work. And that includes the very best researchers. Also, if you are going to contribute to a discussion where one user has been known to use socks, it would be best if you did so via a registered account. Hobit (talk) 21:21, 19 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Professionals like Hewitt are primarily motivated by accuracy in Wikipedia articles. They don’t gain any professional credit from references in Wikipedia. So, he is not being “prickly” in order to “promote” his work over others. In his editing, Hewitt has included references to publications of many other people.
There are two issues:
Wikipedia insists on authoritative references which include Hewitt because he has done and published much of the work.
Wikipedia insists on accuracy which means that references to Hewitt’s publications must be appropriately included.
Professionals work to promote science. In the course of so doing, they sometimes promote their own work in the context of the work of others. Of course, they must take care not to unfairly promote their work over others lest it be self-defeating by causing resentments amongst other professionals.
Professionals are primarily motivated by the following:
Science: They spend their whole lives working to improve science. Bad articles hinder their work.
Education: They put enormous effort into communicating with each other and teaching students. Bad articles interfere with education.
Unfortunately for them, the Wikipedia website is currently a defacto monopoly. Nevertheless, because of insults and harassment, almost no professionals contribute to Wikipedia.
Being referenced in Wikipedia does not enhance the reputation of top-ranked professionals. Instead, their reputations are determined by other elite professionals who already know precisely who contributed what and certainly don’t need Wikipedia to tell them.
BTW, the comment above is correct that Professors Kowalski and Pereira did not criticize Professor Hewitt in the newsletter.
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BOZ (talk) is wishing you a MerryChristmas! This greeting (and season) promotes WikiLove and hopefully this note has made your day a little better. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Don't eat yellow snow!
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I'm wishing you a Merry Christmas, because that is what I celebrate. Feel free to take a "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings" if you prefer. :) BOZ (talk) 00:18, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I believe this was premature. While there was currently a strong preference for Option 1 by vote count, consensus is not determined by counting votes, and indeed some of the arguments were problematic. It is also worth noting that some of the editors !voting option 1 did so by presenting arguments opposite to what they had recently presented in other RSN discussions.
@BilledMammal: I know my close only mentioned the numbers, but strength of arguments are also strongly leaning toward Option 1. As mentioned in the discussion, they just won [4] for coverage of the war in the Gaza. That's a pretty darn strong argument that they can be treated as reliable. In any case, the numbers were enough (IMO obviously) so I left out the strength of argument side because I felt it was unneeded. But I see no way this is going to end with anything other than Option 1. If you wish to have the close reviewed, that's reasonable (and not unexpected given the topic area and the fact it's a NAC). I believe the right venue would be WP:AN (or is the close review board still active?). Hobit (talk) 14:24, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry about what I think are minor errors, just needed fixing, not reverting.. It took me forever to edit that, I kept getting edit conflicts with myself, odd messages about discarding or keeping changes, etc. I finally switched to Firefox. Doug Wellertalk08:14, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. If I didn't recognize your name, I'd have probably reverted. But you are a much better main-space editor than I will ever be, so I figured it was just a bad day. Hobit (talk) 15:01, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's very kind. A combination of Parkinson's and some horrible chemotherapy, sadly. I think the edit conflicts were something to do with preferences and I seem to have fixed that. I hope. Doug Wellertalk16:56, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, thank you for your contributions (that have all been undone just now).
We have a clearly proper map that has been around for many years. (ShebaaFarms.jpg)
There was never ANY FFD deletion. FFD was discussed and dismissed in the "speedy deletion" process. But how can you speedily delete a map with no discussion that has been around for years?
It went through "speedy deletion" by one editor on the grounds that the new map I created of the same map was "redundant" (I only created new copy because it wouldn't let me repost old copy.)
And Sandstein just decides he doesn't like it so both maps are gone forever? How can this happen?
How can one editor destroy a map that is clearly proper?
Can you undo it? If not, please tell me how to seek formal arbitration.
Sorry, I started to respond earlier then life intervened. Sandstein's close was a reasonable reading of consensus. I disagree with the outcome but there were fair arguments on both sides. I'd recommend you work with him and suggest what I suggested in the DRV:
Add content to the article that specifically addresses the map. I think you'd be doing something like adding "XXX claimed YYY" territory according to the map in ZZZ". It's a primary source, but no worse for that. And then discuss on the talk page if adding the map is a good idea (I'd say it clearly is). If an when that consensus is built, go with a new upload.
If he's good with that plan (and I'd think he should be, but I'm not the best at NFCC issues) then pursue it. If he's not, bring it to an appropriate noticeboard and see what folks there think. If they shoot it down, you've lost. Wikipedia is, IMO, the worse for preventing having things that clearly fall under fair use rules (and this does by a mile). I actually teach a bit about this stuff (though IANAL) and find the whole things frustrating. But it's where we are and Wikipedia works by consensus. Hobit (talk) 14:46, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How was Sandstein's close a reasonable reading of consensus?
Again, there were two redundant maps, and both were deleted on the grounds of redundancy.
This cannot be wikipedia policy. If it were, I need merely create redundancies of any image I don't like and then delete the original and the replacement!
It's true that NFCC issues were brought up obliquely but not directly. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can't do speedy deletions based on NFCC. This map has been accepted for almost a decade. If Sandstein wants to delete the map, I think speedy deletion of a decade-long consensus is improper, particularly with an extremely limited discussion and more editors saying it shouldn't be deleted (you, me, Zero) than those that say it should be.
I don't know how to bring it to a noticeboard. Can you help? I fear folks often use the arcaneness of wikipedia procedures to have their way. I can simply request review again on the grounds that it did not follow a proper review process. But I don't know if that's right. Could you please bring help? I think they will respect the request more if it comes from another editor than me.
I've also brought this to the attention of Sandstein.
If anyone can speedily delete anything they want and then claim consensus when there is none and get their own way, wikipedia is an even bigger mess than I feared. GreekParadise (talk) 18:26, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As to your request, it's undisputed that the United Nations used 61 maps, including Lebanese military maps like this one, to make its claim, which was accepted by the Lebanese and Syrian governments for more than 50 years but contradicts the Lebanese position now. I was trying to avoid the controversy and just preserve the right to show the map on wikipedia because I don't want people who feel one way or another about the Middle East to let that color their views about whether a map should be allowed or not. If you need the source for this, let me know. It's the official UN report on the situation. GreekParadise (talk) 18:29, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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BOZ (talk) is wishing you a MerryChristmas! This greeting (and season) promotes WikiLove and hopefully this note has made your day a little better. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Don't eat yellow snow!
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I'm wishing you a Merry Christmas, because that is what I celebrate. Feel free to take a "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings" if you prefer. :) BOZ (talk) 18:17, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]