Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ronni Chasen

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. -- Cirt (talk) 05:51, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ronni Chasen

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The late subject of this article does not seem sufficiently notable and has not received any coverage previous to her recent murder (WP:BIO1E). Google News shows only brief mentions in the archives, and I highly doubt that a publicist is notable enough for an article. /ƒETCH COMMS / 02:35, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. -- Jclemens-public (talk) 04:05, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete I agree with the above. Fixer23 (talk) 08:00, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep There's lots of people with articles on wikipedia who only became notable when they were murdered and received no coverage prior to their deaths. Leno_and_Rosemary_LaBianca, Mary_Jo_Kopechne, J_D_Tippit, Ron_Goldman, John_Birch_(missionary). In most of those cases the person who murdered them or caused their deaths are notable while the subjects themselves are remarkably non-notable. Ronni Chasen at least appears to have been a notable person to notable people before her murder. Ecwfrk (talk) 09:52, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Also, please prove that Chasen was notable before her death by citing a reliable source. /ƒETCH COMMS / 21:53, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. -- -- Cirt (talk) 15:20, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep and redirect/rename to Murder of Ronni Chasen; it's not clear to me that this article will overcome WP:NOT#NEWS and WP:PERSISTENCE standards, but the odds are better than even that they will be, and those standards are rarely enforced. I don't think she meets WP:BIO independently; secondary sources mention her, but there's not independent coverage about her. THF (talk) 17:12, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep She may not have been all that notable before, but she sure is now. Keith Henson (talk) 19:30, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That is related to my point. Just being murdered does not make her notable; please see WP:BIO1E. /ƒETCH COMMS / 21:53, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep She was a well known person in the movie business before her death, and her death is now creating a lot of news in Los Angeles. 22 November 2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.142.12.66 (talk) 19:42, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just being well-known does not make one notable. For example, many YouTube stars are well-known but are not notable by Wikipedia standards. Also, just because her death is causing a lot of news does not make her notable. Many deaths cause big news. What if this disappears in another day? /ƒETCH COMMS / 21:53, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 02:46, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as Ronni Chasen. Given that she was frequently interviewed/quoted in various news sources, I think a strong argument could be made that she was notable as a Hollywood publicist before the murder (i.e. passes WP:GNG). Location (talk) 04:11, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as per WP:GNG, and I am sure even more information about her will be in the media over the next few months. betsythedevine (talk) 04:56, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as Ronni Chasen. She was well-known within the industry as a particularly effective publicist for Academy Awards campaigns (among other things), and sources do now exist to support an article. For example this one at CNN.com"Slain publicist was master at stirring Oscar buzz". As others have said, the volume of press makes it, ultimately, futile to assert non-notability now.--Arxiloxos (talk) 07:38, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Volume of press" doesn't necessarily mean notability—I'm just looking for coverage of why she was notable before her murder (i.e., if she had not been murdered, would she be notable enough still?). Being well-known in the industry is a start, I suppose, but are there any more sources stating that? /ƒETCH COMMS / 17:41, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I just read a lengthy article with a lot of details about her career in the December 1, 2010 weekly print edition of The Hollywood Reporter (apparently not yet on-line, although that website has a number of shorter articles that contain some of the same information.[1]). The New York Times article about the murder also goes into some detail about her prominence, with lines such as: "Ms. Chasen was one of a handful of elite strategists employed by studios to influence the Oscars."[2] Entertainment Weekly writes, "Chasen was an institution in Hollywood, a fixture since the 1970s . . . for the last 20 [years], she ran her own agency, Chasen & Company, which, among other things, specialized in extremely effective Academy Award strategizing. Although her name was seldom evoked at the podium, her PR campaigns contributed to at least 150 Oscar nominations and wins for films like The Hurt Locker, Slumdog Millionaire, No Country For Old Men, Shakespeare in Love, and Driving Miss Daisy." [3] More, similar results can be found by Googling her name together with the name of one or more of those Oscar-winning films.--Arxiloxos (talk) 19:38, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep and keep as Ronni Chasen. Not only was she affiliated with such notables as Natalie Wood, Michael Douglas and the Zanuck family, she was one of the most recognizable PR people and she was one of the few women to hold the positions that she has held in Hollywood, including being the vice-president of PR for MGM and the PR person for former studio American Pictures International. To have a female in one of the leading PR positions internationally, this should be noteworthy on its own to have her listed in Wikipedia - but the additional issue of her unusual death makes the story unquestionably something that should be noted in Wikipedia, especially since she was noteworthy enough to be noted on the "Recent Deaths" pages - why is adding a link with detail about who she is even a question. I'm sure if this was the male counterpart of PR execs in Hollywood this wouldn't even be questioned. As mentioned above - read the newest released article on CNN.com about Chasen and then you may have a much different opinion. I'm not even in "the biz", live on the opposite coast, run in a different world and even I had knowledge about Chasen before her death - knowledge of her because of her achievements as a woman in a group/world that is very much dominated by men. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lmc33 (talk • contribs) 11:31, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Unless she was murdered by Elvis or Liberace this is barely news. If it weren't for the connection to the current film release, the story's on page 24 locally and not picked up by wire. There will be an arrest, and that's the last we'll hear of it.Vytal (talk) 18:52, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: WP:ONEEVENT (his death), lack of WP:CONTINUEDCOVERAGE of it, and no apparent qualification under WP:BIO. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 07:40, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per above rationales, and nominator doesn't need to retort every time a Keep is posted.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 14:33, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's a discussion. I'm allowed to discuss. If someone's reasoning is not sound, why not point it out and help them learn? /ƒETCH COMMS / 21:30, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Click the Google news archive search at the top of the AFD. There are articles published about her BEFORE her murder. She got coverage for other things. Dream Focus 00:54, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Chasen commented and spoke on behalf of newsmakers. She was not a newsmaker herself until her murder. Her job was to get newsmakers ink. Effectively, she was a marketer.Vytal (talk) 13:20, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, PR people are essentially marketers. Some of them are notable and some of them aren't. Chasen seems to have been one of the notable ones. betsythedevine (talk) 13:50, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Chasen seems to have been one of the notable ones." Really? What "significant coverage" has she garnered for herself (as opposed to being mentioned in passing whilst drumming up coverage for her clients), except for this WP:ONEEVENT? Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 14:32, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Many of the articles are hidden behind a paywall, but the titles of these search results for "Ronni Chasen" suggest that she appears in them because of her work, not her clients: "Invasion of The Movieflackers; For Their Premiere Product, Directing a Multimedia Assault" (1987), "For Your Consideration: The Oscar Publicists" (2008). Note that the Google news info for "Ronni Chasen" is missing both those stories--it is not a complete list. Look at the search results from Variety for her name. She was notable in Hollywood if not a "newsmaker."betsythedevine (talk) 15:30, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What do these two articles say about her? Do they give her significant coverage or is she just mentioned in passing as another example of a publicist? Or, to put it another way, what biographical information do they add to this biographical article? Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 16:06, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Los Angeles Times felt her so notable it had an article about her promotion. "Ronni Chasen has been named senior vice president of worldwide publicity for MetroGoldwynMayer..." And she is notable enough for them to seek her expert opinion and quote her on things. Just look through the first few news results that appear. Dream Focus 15:13, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"The Los Angeles Times felt her so notable..." that they devoted three short sentences to her. And of course they quote her -- she's a publicist -- and part of what publicists do is offer quotes about their clients, to publicise them. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 15:37, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a paid subscription to them? The full article requires money to see it. Dream Focus 15:52, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No it doesn't: [4] And sorry, that was 5 short sentences if you include the two-sentence post-1993 update (which brings it up to exactly 77 words). Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 16:00, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh. I had the wrong link then. Anyway, she does get quoted often, so she is considered notable by the media. http://theenvelope.latimes.com/la-et-globesmood11jan11,0,6362520.story says Golden Globes: An article in Friday's Calendar section about the Golden Globes quoted consultant Ronni Chasen as saying the awards were "the only show where you have the TV people and the movie people together."

That and many other mentions of her, before her murder even, I think would qualify is being notable. Dream Focus 16:18, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep as Ronni Chasen. I agree that she was notable as a Hollywood publicist before the murder, especially when compared to others currently in the Category: Public relations people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Public_relations_people . BTW, if we're going to start debating bios of dead publicists, how does the same rationale apply to this guy, David Hans Schmidt? Just wondering. MrEguy | ♠♥♣♦ 21:29, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I have seen not only publicists and marketers but also bloggers and journalists come under attack in AfDs as people whose profession makes them experts in self-promotion, rendering every media mention suspect. If Ronni Chasen was working to get publicity for herself in her lifetime, she did a darn poor job of it. And if she's so bad at promotion, it is funny that after 40 years in the industry she is getting hired by big studios to promote big movies like Wall Street3 and Alice in Wonderland. betsythedevine (talk) 22:01, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. She was probably able to scrape notability before being murdered, e.g. some smalls articles about her in the LA Times - after her murder, notability is solid. No need to rename it. Fences&Windows 22:10, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
strong keep- Even before her murder, I think she would have been worth a stub article. The fact that she represented major movies and actors and was murdered in a spectacular fashion makes her even more notable. V. Joe (talk) 03:55, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
keep - she was highly regarded in the industry before her murder and a whodunnit victim now. The only reason to delete her would be for the power trip. Applemask (talk) 15:16, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: The article under discussion here has been flagged for {{rescue}} by the Article Rescue Squadron. SnottyWong ^speak 16:39, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. News articles mentioning Chasen date back more than 30 years before the murder. Jokestress (talk) 20:02, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.