Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Georgian mafiosi

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Rather close one policy wise, but considering this is a purely BLP list of simply red links, and we need to be cautious about those things, something not really mentioned by the keep commentators. Secret account 05:12, 6 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

List of Georgian mafiosi

List of Georgian mafiosi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Very serious WP:BLP issues with this list. If such a list is to exist at all the references must be scrupulous and the people so listed must self identify as members of it. All else contradicts BLP. Fiddle Faddle 14:45, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Georgia (country)-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000(talk) 14:50, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000(talk) 14:50, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000(talk) 14:50, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hello. The article should definitely stay. In time it will be surely expanded. As for your concern, all of those people in article identify themselves as "Thieves in law" which is same as mafiosi and belong to Georgian criminal clans operating in different parts of the Europe. --GeorgianJorjadze 14:53, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:45, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I have a problem with a page that asserts people are criminals while sourced to all-Russian sources. As with many lists that categorize people negatively, this is a potential BLP nightmare all the more so - we don't generally have a problem with non-English references but this is too much given the topic and context. I have no idea what the criteria for inclusion is. Have these people been actually convicted of a specific criminal offense that corresponds with our understanding of organized crime? I can't tell, because every single supporting reference is in Russian. Will there be a full-time trusted Russophone‎ editor that will curate this list? It's just too problematic in all senses. Also, WP:WTAF would have been nice here since it's more likely that a full article on a subject will support their inclusion in a list like this one. §FreeRangeFrogcroak 21:24, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If you support deleting this article what would you say about List of Sicilian mafiosi? And what's wrong with the Russian sources? Italian sources which are majority of them only in Italian is OK but Russian ones are the only one which are invalid here or what? There's no logic. Georgian mafia is no less influential and famous in former USSR than Sicialian/Italian mafia in Europe so such article should definitely stay. GeorgianJorjadze 11:45, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
On this, GeorgianJorjadze is right: sources in foreign languages are still as good exactly as English-language sources. Still, having also some English-language source would be surely welcome. I'm more concerned by the fact the list is about mostly non-notable persons -I see very few bluelinks. Redlinks should be removed. -- cyclopiaspeak! 13:47, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete this quickly as a BLP nightmare. BTW, problems are found in the Sicilian article as well--I just looked at a redlinked entry where this is cited as a reference, but the only "proof" that the subject is a mafioso is the statement by police. No trial, no conviction, nothing. To nominator, I don't see why self-identification would be necessary here, but I do believe that redlinks should not be allowed in BLP-troubled articles. Drmies (talk) 17:51, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Most (although not all) Russian sources seem to qualify as RS and indeed describe these people as self-identified or well known criminals. However, I would suggest to first create individual articles about every person, rather than start from the list. Jaba Ioseliani (in the list) was a criminal warlord... My very best wishes (talk) 21:22, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Here is an important detail: almost all people currently in this list are known in the Soviet/Russian tradition as "Thieves in law" meaning they are openly authoritative ("in law"), visible and highly influential professional criminals. My very best wishes (talk) 03:07, 31 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do not delete. Info will be added time by time and those red links eventually will turn to blue one. So be it. If sicilian mafiosi article is alive be this one be as well. GeorgianJorjadze 23:03, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I got a better one for you: write those articles, then add those names to a list. It's not hard, and it's not too much to ask, and it's in keeping with the BLP policy which urges us to err on the side of caution. Drmies (talk) 23:17, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • It takes time so in time it will be fully blue I think. Is it such a big deal to leave this article alive? The info will be added by time. GeorgianJorjadze 23:56, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep As long as all entries have a reliable source saying the person has been convicted as being part of this criminal organization, then its fine. The reliable source can be referenced on this list or in the blue linked articles. Dream Focus 01:47, 31 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Any one of them that is notable enough to get an article can be listed on a Category:Georgian Mafiosi which would covers all those with articles and anybody wanting to see them can go there. This is just a list of links with no other text, which is what a category is already. See my argument for Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Sicilian mafiosi.--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 02:37, 31 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep but purge, given the weight of the "mafiosi" attribute in my view we should be very zelous on the inclusion of every name, and a single source could not be enough for inclusion. I suggest keeping for now just the bluelinks and eventually discuss the inclusion of redlinks supported by multiple sources in the talk page. Cavarrone 19:48, 31 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • I want to note that all of those listed people in the article are "thieves in law" which is even more powerful institution as such than for example "mafiosi" or "godfather". It is the highest hierarchy in criminal world and Georgia has produced the biggest amount of such godfathers which are active still in European countries and especially in former USSR states. Just a note that we are not talking about small organization of criminals but it is no less influential if not more than Sicilian mafia in this regard. GeorgianJorjadze 20:03, 31 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Lists, especially of potentially contentious content, should not include red links to non-existing pages, and especially about living people. If this page is kept, prepare that someone might remove all red-linked objects/subjects of the list. My very best wishes (talk) 02:39, 1 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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