Talk:Taiwan/Archive 32

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I don't know how to reply to your response so I'm starting a new topic.

First of all, no. The UNDP has always had bogus HDI figures for Taiwan as a region of China, they didn't start calculating in 2019.

And no, HDI is HARD STATS, Taiwanese government used the same methodology. The link I provided ( https://www.dgbas.gov.tw/public/Data/02416246DBUFBVDH.pdf) is far more transparent than UNDP. You can see how it's calculated.

If you insist on using UNDP's figure please provide UNDP's sources of Taiwan's life expectancy, expected years of schooling, and GNI per capita (adjusted for PPP). I bet you can't find it because the UNDP don't even disclose them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Greysholic (talk • contribs) 08:55, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree that in this context the Taiwanese governments numbers are better than UNDP. As Taiwan has a progressive and transparent democracy there isnt an issue of trust with their numbers like in dictatorships and single party states. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 16:33, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

You can reply to someone by using the colon, and it will indent it like this text. Please also sign your topics with four tildes (~). Although your point seems reasonable, the link leads to a page error. NickleSonic (talk) 15:20, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

You can also find the HDI data and calculation details on this government webpage (in English) https://eng.stat.gov.tw/ct.asp?xItem=25280&ctNode=6032&mp=5 Masonwu1995 (talk) 23:33, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Greysholic: How did you come up with the conclusion that the UN (also a very highly regarded and reliable organization) would use skewed data while calculating the HDI for an entity which they have no connection with? Where are your sources? I still believe that data coming straight from the UN would be much more reliable than a calculation done by a country's own government. ɴᴋᴏɴ21 ❯❯❯ talk 19:06, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Thats the point... How would they calculate the HDI for an entity which they have no connection with? Horse Eye Jack (talk) 19:14, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Per WP:RSPRIMARY, Although specific facts may be taken from primary sources, secondary sources that present the same material are preferred. UNDP data, which is both reliable and INDEPENDENT of the Taiwanese government, is in this case the data that Wikipedia should continue to use. Taiwan shouldn't be the only country on Wikipedia to not use data published from the UNDP, just because of some editor's unsourced analysis and interpretive claims. ɴᴋᴏɴ21 ❯❯❯ talk 19:24, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

But if the editor provides a couple reliable secondary sources that also makes the same claims free of WP:OR, than I will be happy to reconsider. But I am not the type of person to support a possibly inflated data value. ɴᴋᴏɴ21 ❯❯❯ talk 19:32, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Seems like there is some confusion here — I figured it out, so let me try to explain. The value of 0.880 that the Wikipedia page currently uses does not come from UNDP. It comes from the Global Data Lab (GDL), which is the source that the Wiki page currently cites. GDL sources all its countries' data from UNDP, except for Taiwan, because UNDP does not have Taiwanese data (the GDL's academic publication detailing their database construction explains this: https://www.nature.com/articles/sdata201938). Thus, for Taiwan's data, GDL took the HDI values directly from the Taiwanese government website. The Taiwanese government clearly states an HDI of 0.911, as you can see from both sources linked above (the first link works now, I checked). However, for some reason GDL instead states an HDI of 0.880, which is incorrect. I contacted the director of GDL, and he responded explaining that they for some reason didn't find the Taiwanese government data in recent years, and the value of 0.880 was an extrapolation, which turned out to be incorrect. So that's where we are. The fact is that 0.911 is the correct value, and GDL would also state that value if it correctly sourced its data from the Taiwan government website. GDL says they will correct this error in the next update of their database. Masonwu1995 (talk) 22:46, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Can you provide the conversation you had with the director? If this is really the case, Wikipedia should only update the figure when the updated report becomes available, as sources must be published. ɴᴋᴏɴ21 ❯❯❯ talk 00:59, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

We can use a high quality primary source for basic demographic information, thats covered under WP:SELFSOURCE. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 02:29, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Here is the email conversation I had with the person from GDL. Wikiepdia didn't let me upload a screenshot. "When we constructed the index for Taiwan, the spreadsheet of the Taiwanese statistics office only contained data that ran until 2015. So for the later years we had to make an estimate on the basis of restricted data. In the next update round of the SHDI we will adjust the information for Taiwan. Best wishes, Jeroen Smits" Obviously this email is not a source. But I agree with user Horse Eye Jack in that we can use the Taiwan government website as a high-quality primary source, particularly since our secondary source (GDL) says it cites that website directly. Masonwu1995 (talk) 20:18, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

According to the GDL, the HDI value for Taiwan in 2015 is 0.873, so you're saying that the director confirms that all data collected up to that point is accurate and came from the Taiwanese statistics bureau. So within 3 years, the HDI has suddenly increased 0.038, if both sources of data are the same? What kind of developmental miracle occurred between these 3 years? I just want to make sure that 0.911 is not some overinflated value, as secondary sources in these types of cases are still generally more preferred than primary. I've been to Taiwan before, and frankly speaking, it does not seem like the type of country to be more developed than South Korea. ɴᴋᴏɴ21 ❯❯❯ talk 21:45, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes, that is correct — the reported value was 0.873 in 2015 and 0.911 in 2018. That is certainly a big jump. My guess is that the Taiwanese government updated their method used to collect or calculate the data that goes into the calculation of the HDI value, but that's just a guess. Right now, the fact is the the primary source says 0.911, and the secondary source claims to directly cite the primary source, which is publicly viewable, yet the secondary source says 0.880, AND we have found an explanation as to why the secondary source is different, and that explanation tells us that the secondary source is wrong. I think the fact that the secondary source states clearly that it directly sources its data from the primary source means that, essentially, the secondary source has vetted the primary source for us, and we can use the primary source in this case. It's not like GDL calculated Taiwan's HDI independently. I believe at Wikipedia we should evaluate the credibility of a source but not the credibility of the data. If the primary source says 0.911, then that's what it says. Do I know that the Taiwanese government's value of 0.911 is correct? No, but we certainly aren't in a place to have an opinion on whether the HDI value is correct or not. We can only decide which source to trust, and in this case there is no reason to believe that the primary source is incorrect, whereas there IS a reason to believe the secondary source is incorrect. I am from Taiwan, and I get why you say that it doesn't seem like it's more developed than South Korea, but that's really just a superficial assessment, and not our job. Taiwan's GDP (PPP) per capita is $57,000, much higher than South Korea's $46,000 (IMF data from 2020, but you get the idea), so it's not impossible or surprising that Taiwan's HDI is slightly higher than Korea's. Sure, Taiwan's buildings look super old and there are a ton of scooters, etc. etc., but... that's a topic for another day. Masonwu1995 (talk) 03:11, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

If we're going of personal opinion based on time spent there Taiwan definitely feels more developed, especially the rural areas. I've spent time in both and while the city cores are roughly comparable (perhaps with a bit of a SK lead) the level of poverty you find in the South Korean countryside (especially among the elderly) is hard to find in Taiwan. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 06:20, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Okay at this point, I do agree that the circumstances of the GDL does not seem as favorable at the data coming from the Taiwanese statistics bureau, which is a reliable primary source to use in this case and does not contain any other claims about external properties. So I agree that 0.911 should be used instead of the 0.880. Best, ɴᴋᴏɴ21 ❯❯❯ talk 12:06, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Glad this issue is resolved. Masonwu1995 (talk) 19:30, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Well, this issue is finally resolved after it was raised mulitple times (/Archive 29#Protected edit request on 21 May 2020 and #Human Development Index), Matthew hk (talk) 11:36, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

@MrX: Could you explain the reasoning of your decision?--223.140.226.140 (talk) 17:27, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

@223.140.226.140: The arguments in favor of using the name that reliable sources describe as official far outweighed arguments in favor of using the name used by the Taiwanese government website, or using both versions of the name. Arguments that the constitution refers to ROC also contributed to consensus. - MrX 🖋 17:44, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Hello, I personally think that we should split this article into two separate articles being Taiwan (island) and Taiwan (The Republic of China). These two entities are very different and lumping them both into one article is pretty dumb.SirFlemeingtonz (talk) 18:18, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree. Note though that as many editors have pointed out, the "Taiwan Area" controlled by the government of the Republic of China contains more than Taiwan Island. Maybe we could call the two articles simply Taiwan and Republic of China. For the government section of Taiwan Area, we could say it is administered by the Republic of China. TFD (talk) 22:33, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

There’s already a Government of the Republic of China article, what else would your Republic of China article cover? Phlar (talk) 00:35, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Republic of China redirects here while the government article is about the post-1948 government. TFD (talk) 22:53, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

@SirFlemeingtonz: Taiwan (island) is pretty much what Geography of Taiwan is about, is it not? EnTerbury (talk) 11:16, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Well it doesn’t really talk about Taiwan’s history or people or many other things needed for a good article on a place. And plus that still doesn’t excuse how this article lumps Taiwan and the ROC together. SirFlemeingtonz (talk) 23:18, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

SirFlemeingtonz, I think the geography of Taiwan article is pretty much the article that you are proposing. While it doesn't cover history, which is covered on History of Taiwan it does cover the people living on the island. And as the island and the country have pretty much the same territory, of course there is overlap when discussing the history and geography of the island in this article, but I don't think that the article lumps them together. Zoozaz1 (talk) 00:00, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

I'd be opposed to moving this article per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:COMMONNAME. For the last seventy years the RoC has been the only government of Taiwan and Taiwan has been 99% of the territory of the RoC. Disentangling them would be impossible. A separate Taiwan (island) article along the lines of Great Britain seems reasonable though. --RaiderAspect (talk) 11:03, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Taiwan and the ROC are not one and the same. Currently (2020.) 99% of the ROC is situated on Taiwan, however Taiwan is an island and province of the ROC, not the country itself. Andro611 (talk) 21:32, 3 August 2020 (UTC)— Andro611 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

So? Cuba is both a particular island and the country consisting of that island and several smaller ones. --Khajidha (talk) 14:53, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

@Andro611: You are mistaken, Taiwan Province =/= the island of Taiwan. Taiwan province only takes up a little more than half of the island of Taiwan and also includes most of the outlying islands. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 19:14, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Khajidha has a good point, we do seem to treat Cuba (one of the few comparably sized island nations) the same way. We also seem to do the same thing with Madagascar. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 19:14, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

and Jamaica, Iceland and Sri Lanka. Kanguole 09:39, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

@Khajidha The difference is that "Cuba" is both the name of the island and the is contained within the official name of the country – Republic of Cuba. Taiwan is the name of an island and a province. The official name of the country is the Republic of China. This is a case distinct from Jamaica, Iceland and Sri Lanka. For the same reason "Britain", while commonly used to refer to the United Kingdom, is not accurate. Andro611 (talk) 16:47, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

@Andro611: The official name of Cuba is the Republic of Cuba not Cuba. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 21:58, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't see the problem. Common names that do not match official names are not inaccurate, they're just common names. --Khajidha (talk) 14:35, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

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2409:4072:796:92BE:5B99:2431:74B8:BAAB (talk) 11:46, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
Taiwan is a not china

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Danski454 (talk) 12:39, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

In determining the English language name of this state, we need to rely on what the organs of government of this state are saying the state is called-I plan to make a running list of different variants here.

• Republic of China (Taiwan)
• [31] [32]

Geographyinitiative (talk) 14:32, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

No, we don't "need to rely" on this, we use WP:COMMONNAME. The official English name of Ivory Coast, for example, is "Republic of Côte d'Ivoire", but Wikipedia has decided to go with "Ivory Coast" instead (I don't think that was the right decision, but it is a useful example). —Kusma (t·c) 14:57, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Agree we should use COMMONNAME. In any case, Taiwan is not a state but a province administered by the Republic of China and claimed by the People's Republic of China, both of which call it Taiwan Province. TFD (talk)

The most common meaning of "Taiwan" these days is "the Republic of China" as in "Tsai Ing-wen is the President of Taiwan". The second most common meaning is geographically, the island of Taiwan. The use of "Taiwan" for the province of either ROC or PRC (i.e. including Penghu but excluding Kinmen) is vanishingly rare. —Kusma (t·c) 08:56, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

You are mistaken, Taiwan province ceased to exist entirely in 2018 and had existed on paper only for long before that. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:26, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

You are mistaken. The ROC's claimed Taiwan province still exists in the ROC's administrative specification and has not been deleted. --Matt Smith (talk) 05:01, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Doesn't it have the same no staff, no budget, no responsibility status as the Fujian Provincial Government and the other weird KMT holdovers? TFD’s point is still off, even if we want to say on an extreme technicality that it exists its never been contagious with Taiwan... Taiwan Province is at most 2/3 of Taiwan. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:08, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

That belongs to a different topic. The point here is that the so called Taiwan province still exists in the ROC's administrative specification. --Matt Smith (talk) 01:45, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

We should add Republic of China (Taiwan) to the first paragraph as MOS:ALTNAME suggests. Republic of China (Taiwan) is a significant alternative name form. This name form does not appear anywhere in the article. Fueun (talk) 21:25, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Until quite recently, it was mentioned once in the Etymology section. I have restored this. Phlar (talk) 10:56, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

There's a lot of white space with no text to scroll through due to the number of pictures along the right side of the article. Can some of the pictures be moved into a gallery format to help cut down on that? Psu256 (talk) 18:07, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

There are a few excessive images, e.g. in the Military section, but the real problem is more the three overloaded infoboxes at the start of the article, which push the illustrations for the early sections into a huge stack. Kanguole 18:31, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Yes the images are somewhat excessive, but another problem of whitespace is the overwhelming pile of images on the right side. I have moved some to the left to help with the logjam. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:31, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

As I say, the real cause of the logjam is the excessive infoboxes. Also, when you move an image near the end of a section to the left, that can bump the next section heading to the right, which looks awful. Kanguole 20:48, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

It can do that regardless of whether it's near the end or not. But there's no way for me to tell since everyone has a different window size to view the page. There were (and still are) too many pics on the right side. It looked perfect from my end. But yes... that first infobox is long, but I think shorter than the United Kingdom infobox. But then we have two more ridiculous infoboxes that really interfere with photos. Strange, I tried adding the "collapse" attribute to the two extra infoboxes, but it doesn't seem to work for me. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:32, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Regarding the name boxes:

• There is no need for images of the characters, when we have the characters as text just below.
• The Tibetan, Zhuang, Mongolian, Uyghur and Manchu versions of "Republic of China" are out of place here. Deleting them would not be a loss of information, as they are duplicated in Republic of China (1912–1949), where they make more sense.

There's a fair bit of cruft in the main box too (deputy speaker??). Kanguole 22:14, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Gallery formats are deprecated since they don't honour user's preferences for image size. WP:IMGDD states "Don't set fixed image sizes". They're also a bad idea because they tend to move apposite images away from relevant text.

Kanguole has correctly identified that, as with many Wikipedia articles, the excessive length of the right aligned infoboxes pushes images too far down the page and away from the text they relate too. This is most acute where the leading text is short but, even with long ledes like in this article it can remain a problem.
Moving images to be left aligned is no real solution since, depending on screen width and enlargement, text can then end up in a thin worm, sandwiched between a left aligned image and either the extended infobox or, heaven forbid, an opposite, right aligned images.

Folks need to realise that it is inherent to the way that W3C standards work that there will be thousands of versions to the way that articles visually display since there are very many permutations of browser and screen widths.

I'd also point out that many specialists think it best that humans don't face away (rather than into) body text.

Losing cruft and collapsing boxes by default (well done, Fyunck(click) for attempting this,) may be the way forward, but it will be a constant battle - drive-by editors just love adding (and arguing about) crud (they would say pearls of information) to infoboxes and the fact that the code is always towards the top of the first things they see, assists in the inexorable growth.--BushelCandle (talk) 00:50, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

I suggest we remove the Japanese from the Taiwan language infobox, and the China section of the Republic of China infobox, as both are quite minor in usage these days. CMD (talk) 05:31, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Sandwiching

I'm afraid I take issue with this edit and the edit summary that accompanied it of "Everything piled on one side make the article look a bit amateurish." Consequently, unless someone can advance policy-compliant reasons for why it should be endured, I intend to negate it.

There are good reasons why MOS:IMAGELOCATION advises Most images should be right justified on pages, which is the default placement:

1) It is really highly subjective and a matter of personal preference as to whether articles look better with most images consistently on the left, consistently on the right or alternating at wide intervals between left and right positioning. Some prefer one layout - similar numbers of readers prefer the other.

2) However, with relatively narrow screens and many browsers, there are distinct readability advantages to having all images, infoboxes, maps, tables and other non-text elements consistently positioned on either the right or the left and this is an objective fact.

3) What we should really try to avoid is a thin worm of text that is difficult to read because it is "sandwiched" between right and left-facing images:

Consequently, unless someone can advance policy-compliant reasons for why this policy-busting edit should be endured, I intend to negate it shortly. BushelCandle (talk) 04:37, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

I agree. Also, the Military section is one of the most overloaded with images. I'd suggest just the aircraft and the ships (and there are better images of this aircraft on the AIDC F-CK-1 Ching-kuo page). Kanguole 12:25, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Agree trim is needed.--Moxy 🍁 00:52, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Please would you explain the concept of "overloaded" and "trim is needed" when, with the consistent and default right positioning and default sizes, all of these relevant, informative and good quality images can be comfortably accommodated without the images spilling into the subsequent section?

The images removed were an important illustrative aid to understanding the quality and range of capabilities of Taiwan's armed forces. If you believe otherwise, then please advance your rationale.

If that rationale is convincing, then our policy is to, when possible, find better images and improve captions instead of simply removing poor or inappropriate ones.

Please also explain why alt text for one of the remaining images of "Two warships in dock" is superior and more helpful to the visually impaired than "Two of the navy's current destroyers in dock". --BushelCandle (talk) 01:04, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Five images is too many for a section of that size – we should select those that best illustrate what the text is saying. Not all readers are using a desktop screen.

Alt text needs to complement the caption, not repeat it. Kanguole 16:55, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

I agree we need to keep WP:ACCESS issues in mind. Removing the sandwiching was correct, but even right-aligned, I don't think the section is really long enough to hold more than two images.

On the image choices, I don't find any of the three images currently included (thunderbolt truck, indigenous plane, American-made ships) as being significant aids to understanding. The removed military police one actually provides some useful information, and if space remains the fighter jet seems the most informative as it has a notable bit of information.

On sandwiching more generally, the practice of alternating images is well established, although placing images left can cause some issues such as overlapping with section headers. In my experience, country articles are prone to suffer from image overload (and other overloads), and careful selection is important. (For example here the APEC summit picture seems insignificant, and the caption from the relief map geography image could be modified to fit the köppen climage image instead.) CMD (talk) 14:54, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

I think you mean the caption of the military police image, rather than the image itself. If the military police being a separate branch is so important (which I'm not sure it is), then it could be mentioned in the article text.

The destroyers are mentioned in the text, so it seems reasonable to show them (particularly for readers who know what to look for in a modern warship). Kanguole 15:06, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

In the Transport section, the high-speed trains seem more interesting than the row of plane tails. Kanguole 15:16, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

I am taking the caption and image together in these assessments since none of the images jumps out by itself. However important the note on the Military Police is, I find it a better caption than simply identifying a vehicle. Similarly, a better caption on the ship image would be appreciated.

Agreed on the train vs plane tails. CMD (talk) 06:32, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

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Change "The president appoints the members of the Executive Yuan as his cabinet, including a premier, who is officially the President of the Executive Yuan" to "The president appoints the members of the Executive Yuan as her cabinet, including a premier, who is officially the President of the Executive Yuan" Tamil 1972 (talk) 12:33, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

 Partly done: Changed to the neutral possessive "their" instead so that going back and forth each time a President of a gender is elected is not necessary. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 22:10, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

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new information Polishismyhearth (talk) 23:36, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 00:42, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

In the China Page the map has area controlled by the PRC in green and the area claimed but not controlled (Taiwan, Indian Border) in light green. Since the ROC claims but does not control mainland china, shouldn't we add claimed territories to the map in a differentiating color? Wandavianempire (talk) 14:18, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Wandavianempire The PRC government is actively claiming Taiwan as part of its current territory and claiming it is under PRC jurisdiction. The Taiwanese government refers to its past claims as "historical claims" and does not claim to have effective jurisdiction over the PRC. Which map and territory would you include? Here is the official "national map" directly from the ROC Department of Land Management which does not include its "historical" territory: https://www.land.moi.gov.tw/chhtml/content/68?mcid=3224

Eclipsed830 (talk) 13:09, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Like Eclipsed830 said those claims aren’t active, they haven’t actively claimed China as part of their territory for at least 30 years. Just FYI if we’re being specific Mongolia is also within the territories historically claimed by the KMT *and* CCP yet you dont see Mongolia in a different color on the China map because the Chinese do not actively assert that claim. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:57, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Since we all know that Google uses the English version of Wikipedia as their reference to their quick search title.

For example, by the time Oct.11 2020, if you enter "中華民國建國/成立", the founding of the Republic of China in Mandarin, it will show that the founding date is December 7, 1949. This is obviously wrong since we all know that the ROC is founded on Oct.10 1911(Wuchang Uprising) or constitutionally, Jan. 1 1912. For more information, please refer to National Day of the Republic of China. And I have to address that the public on the Formosa island is furry due to this error. here, here, and here.

As we can see, if we define the title of this page that is meant to introduce the Republic of China nowadays lousily as "Taiwan", it will shame the whole wiki community.

I proposed that we should integrate all the related pages of the Republic of China into this one since pages like Republic of China (1912–1949) constitutionally inherited by the ROC government now on the islands of Formosa.

Wikipedia is one of the most referenced "fact check" on the internet, every action in our community may arouse huge issues. We have to be clear about this.鬼米 (talk) 04:20, 13 October 2020 (UTC) 鬼米: You wouldn't say "all of us". We know that Taiwan was founded in December 7, 1949. So obviously it needs to be back. --テリヤキ (Talk With Me) 00:45, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Don't know what happened there, but I get the correct date. —Kusma (t·c) 08:32, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Google corrected this error in the morning of Oct.12 GMT+8 by source their quick search to History of the Republic of China. So I assume that this problem is now a part of the section "RfC: Taiwan's official name" in this talk. 鬼米 (talk) 04:20, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

No, there is no problem at all now. All is perfect as it should be unless someone tries to do something "lousily" strange. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:27, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

@テリヤキ: There is no such thing as "Taiwan was founded in December 7, 1949". If you are referring to the ROC, it was founded on January 1, 1912. --Matt Smith (talk) 02:45, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

@Matt Smith: All is based on opinions, not how we know. So that means that not just because that you and the others think it is; I am from Japan, so I might not think that The Republic of China was founded in January 1, 1912 is correct. --テリヤキ (Talk With Me) 15:20, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

It was founded in January 1, 1912, and that is a fact. --Matt Smith (talk) 02:03, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

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Please change Republic of China back to Taiwan. If you search Wikipedia on Taiwan Passport, notice it says "Taiwan Passport". If you look at language or Google reference or address look up, it's always referenced as "Taiwan". When you land in Taiwan International Airport, it says "Welcome to Taiwan" Alphajun (talk) 07:56, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

@Alphajun: Which instance of "Republic of China" are you referring to? Is it the infobox? That's normal. We always use official name for the heading of the infobox (see Vietnam and Philippines for examples). pandakekok9 (talk) 08:10, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 October 2020

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Taiwan is a disputed land. Claimed by China as its territory but Taiwanese people claims themselves as separate country and not part of china Joo Chang (talk) 12:30, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Goldsztajn (talk) 12:43, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

@Joo Chang:, on the off chance that you'll come back and see this, please see the article Political status of Taiwan, which is a quite thorough discussion of the topic. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 13:36, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

@Eggishorn, Goldsztajn, and Joo Chang: I agree the article needs some work, but i'm not able to be much more specific than the original request was. I would suggest reordering the information that is already in lead section, which i will try to do myself. The disputed status is already mentioned there, but not till the third paragraph. But it also needs some qualifying statements like "according to (the UN / the Taiwanese government / the PCR)" and possibly more references, this is a bit beyond my expertise. (I also added another discussion topic below.) Irtapil (talk) 07:38, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

There previously was an RFC asking people to decide whether Taiwan should be called "country" or "state". In reality, it should be called neither. It's a disputed territory claimed by both the PRC and ROC. A vote by a bunch of Wikipedia authors won't change that. Therefore, if anything, the real question is whether should be considered a SOVEREIGN STATE (it's not) or a PROVINCE of China (it is) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_Province,_People%27s_Republic_of_China

It should most definitely not be called country, as it is now, as it's highly misleading. It should be clearly marked that the status of Taiwan is highly disputed with the consensus among UN member states being that Taiwan is part of the PRC and that the ROC is an illegitimate government. AmericanPropagandaHunter (talk) 00:02, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

@AmericanPropagandaHunter: I don't see problems calling Taiwan a country. According to Collins English Dictionary, a country is "one of the political units which the world is divided into, covering a particular area of land." According to Oxford Learner's Dictionary, a country is "an area of land that has or used to have its own government and laws." Taiwan clearly satisfies these definitions. There are of course other common definitions for a country but I believe none of them put the consensus among UN member states as a necessary condition. Ericpony (talk) 15:26, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

lead section doesn't reflect official status

I think the lead section needs some major revisions. The information needs to be reordered and rephrased to fit with Wikipedia's policy of being unbiased and prioritizing the consensus perspective. I came to this Wikipedia page because I am fairly confused about the situation in Taiwan, but - as far as I know from other sources - most countries do not recognise Taiwan as an independent country? Officially it is regarded as a part of China by about 98% of international governments? This is mentioned, but not till the third paragraph. I will try reordering some of the information that is already there, but someone more familiar with the topic probably needs to do some extensive re-phrasing and adding citations, adding "according to" and other qualifying phrases where needed. Irtapil (talk) 07:28, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

You say the lead doesn't reflect the official status, but then say that it does, just not early enough. I tend to agree that an early mention of Taiwan's unique status would be useful, but trying to jam the fourth paragraph into the first would be overkill. We need something concise but solid, and that will be difficult.

Also, the first sentence is very heavily contested. It would be better to get consensus here before trying to change it. Kanguole 09:56, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

"Officially it is regarded as a part of China by about 98% of international governments” not true, most countries (like the US) actually have “no opinion” as their official opinion. They avoid answering the question entirely which allows them to continue doing business with both parties. This is why the US can sell advanced weapons to Taiwan when selling arms to China or a non-country would be highly illegal, same goes for all the European countries who export goods to Taiwan that the EU banned for export to China after Tiananmen... If they considered Taiwan part of China they would be breaking their own laws. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:11, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Citation needed. Foreign relations of Taiwan gives a good overview. The vast majority of countries on earth recognize the PRC only and the number of state ONLY recognizing the PRC is growing over time. Only 15 countries on earth recognize Taiwan as a sovereign nation. The ROC was declared an illegitimate government and expulsed from the UN in 1971 with an overwhelming majority in favour. You can see the voting results here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_2758#/media/File:Voting_res_2758.svg (The only countries with "no opinion" are the yellow ones. Most of the red countries have eventually changed their minds and are now on the PRC's side.) AmericanPropagandaHunter (talk) 11:29, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Whether Taiwan's diplomatic allies recognize "Taiwan as a sovereign nation" is disputable. There are opinions that Taiwan's diplomatic allies actually recognize the ROC government as the representative of China rather than recognizing Taiwan as a state. --Matt Smith (talk) 02:57, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

The fourth paragraph could be placed as the second paragraph. Would probably also make more sense as the first paragraph ends with saying that Taiwan is not a of the UN.Finn.reports (talk) 18:16, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Irtapil As the others have stated, officially most (many?) countries do not take a specific position regarding the Taiwan question and consider it "unresolved". They do not have "diplomatic relations" with Taiwan, but also do not recognize that Taiwan is part of the PRC. This is the case for the United States, Canada, Japan, UK, France, etc. etc. Most of these other countries simply use ambiguous statements such as "acknowledge the Chinese position" (USA), "take note of the Chinese position" (Canada), "understand and respect" the Chinese position (Japan), etc. Eclipsed830 (talk) 09:04, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Proposed paragraph

• Ok so its pretty clear that people (such as OP) are getting confused by our current paragraph. I also think its out of line with WP:DUE because it gives way more detail than needed and is too long. However I think we should increase the prominence and I agree with @Finn.reports: on where to put it. I propose moving the fourth paragraph into the second position, moving the end of the last sentence of the first paragraph and and shortened to:

“Taiwan is the most populous country and largest economy that is not a member of the United Nations (UN). The political status of Taiwan remains uncertain. Taiwan is claimed by the People’s Republic of China (PRC). Domestically, the major political contention is between parties favoring eventual Chinese unification and promoting a Chinese identity contrasted with those favoring eventual independence and promoting a Taiwanese identity, although both sides have moderated their positions to broaden their appeal.[28][29]”

The phrase "Taiwan is claimed by the People's Republic of China" has good intentions but it is ambiguous to the average reader. It would be more precise to state that "The entire country of Taiwan is claimed by the Chinese government (People's Republic) as part of China's sovereign territory"... this can be continued with "although Taiwan has historically been governed by previous Chinese regimes, Taiwan has never been governed by the contemporary People's Republic, which holds China's seat in the United Nations and is recognised by the majority of countries around the world as China's legitimate government." Jargo Nautilus (talk) 21:19, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Discussion

I agree that the fourth paragraph should be trimmed (maybe not as much as that), but placing it at the end of the first paragraph would be disjointed. It would also not meet the objection of the OP, which was that Taiwan's status was not mentioned up front.

I believe that we need to revisit the first sentence, including "country", painful as it may be. I think the points that need to be made in that sentence are: Taiwan is self-governing, but it is claimed by the PRC and recognized by a small minority of countries. In that case the "most populous country and largest economy that is not a member of the United Nations (UN)" bit could be dropped. Kanguole 20:14, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Taiwan is a de facto country, that much is certain. It is one of ten de facto countries around the world, according to this Wikipedia article: List of states with limited recognition. Referring to it as precisely that, a "de facto country", could be considered neutral, though I would certainly object to any notion that it is a breakaway state (i.e. "renegade province") or merely a self-governing region (i.e. "self-governing island"). The PRC's diplomatic claim to Taiwan should be acknowledged by this Wikipedia article, but not recognised. Any claims in this article that Taiwan is anything other than a country that rules itself would be placing undue weight on the PRC's claim to Taiwan and would hence be tacitly supporting a potential PRC invasion and annexation of Taiwan; i.e. it would not be neutral. Neutrality, in the case of Taiwan, doesn't mean placing equal weight on both the claims of the "independence activists" and the opposing territorial claims of the PRC. First and foremost, the Wikipedia article about Taiwan needs to be about and for Taiwan and the Taiwanese people before any weight is placed on foreign views towards the region. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 21:08, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

It is recognized by almost all countries, to what extent they recognize it is another question, for instance the US recognizes them in all ways (economic, educational, cultural, intelligence, military, law enforcement, etc) besides diplomatic. The “country” question is settled, I’d wait a few years before trying to change it. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:17, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

I support the potential improvement in removing the "and is the most populous country and largest economy that is not a member of the United Nations (UN)", which reads to be trivia at best, is unsourced, and is not present in the body. CMD (talk) 04:06, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Remove the words about "the most populous country and largest economy that is not a member of the United Nations (UN)". That is not important when describing Taiwan. WestCoastSaint (talk) 08:14, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

I believe that Taiwan's political situation can be accurately summed up as follows (this is a pretty long description, so not really a summary): "Taiwan, officially the Republic of China, is a country in East Asia... ...Taiwan's political status is heavily disputed both within Taiwan and outside of Taiwan. Significantly, China (the People's Republic of China; not to be confused with the Republic of China) claims Taiwan as part of its territory, specifically as 'Taiwan Province'. Since China is a United Nations (UN) member state with veto power, Taiwan has been unable to rejoin the UN ever since it was ejected in 1971, having previously held the seat of China in the UN from 1945 (the UN's founding date) to 1971. Taiwan is the most developed and most populous country that is not a member of the UN. Within Taiwan, major political parties hold opposing views on the sovereign identity of the country; on one hand, the Pan-Blue camp supports the idea that Taiwan is part of China and that the Republic of China (the official name of the Taiwanese government) is the legitimate government of China (including territories governed by the People's Republic of China), whereas, on the other hand, the Pan-Green camp supports the idea that Taiwan is an independent country, either as the "Republic of China on Taiwan" or as simply "Taiwan". Historically, the Republic of China was the internationally-recognised government of China from 1912 to 1949; following the Chinese Civil War, the government fled to Taiwan, an island which came under its control in 1945, having previously been a colony of the Empire of Japan. The Republic of China retained recognition as the legitimate government of China from 1949 until 1971 among many major countries in the developed world (mainly the West) despite losing control of over 99% of its territory to the People's Republic of China in 1949. Presently, Taiwan is recognised by 15 UN member or observer states around the world." Jargo Nautilus (talk) 17:54, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

I think that the proposed idea is a good one but i think to make it more clear something like "Taiwan is claimed by the People's Republic of China but governed and controlled by the Republic of China." so people would easily know that the PRC doesnt govern taiwan but only claims it.Finn.reports (talk) 19:32, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

The phrase "Taiwan is governed by the Republic of China" is somewhat problematic since it implies that Taiwan is a subnational region under the rule of a foreign power (admittedly, this was the case w.r.t. the ROCxTaiwan, from 1945 to 1949), rather than being, you know, a country that rules itself. As far as I'm concerned, and I think many people would agree with me, Taiwan and the Republic of China are, effectively, one and the same. The dispute within the country is more to do with the "national identity" rather than control over territories. The current leader of the "Republic of China", Tsai Ing-wen, is ethnic-Taiwanese (Chinese) and rules over not just all Taiwanese people but also all "mainlanders (in Taiwan)", who, as far as I'm aware, don't necessarily see themselves as a separate ethnic group. --- Overall, it would be more accurate to state that Taiwan is the Republic of China, which could be phrased as "Taiwan, officially the Republic of China... etc." It's also a case of undue weight to start off with "Taiwan is claimed by the People's Republic of China". That information is important, but not as important as the goings-on within Taiwan itself. The PRC doesn't govern Taiwan and never has. It has international leverage over Taiwan on a diplomatic level, but Taiwan has always been self-governing ever since the end of the Chinese Civil War in 1949. Before that point, the PRC never did govern Taiwan, though the direct predecessor of the PRC, the ROC, did. Since the PRC claims to be the successor state to the ROC, and since most countries of the world recognise this, a case can be made that the PRC has some kind of sovereign right to Taiwan (albeit indirectly). Though, Taiwan's status as even being a sovereign territory of the ROC is disputed; this dispute goes all the way back to World War II, back when Taiwan was under Japanese rule. The only parts of "Taiwan" that aren't disputed as ROC territory are the island groups of Kinmen and Matsu. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 20:56, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

I agree that Taiwan and the ROC are the same but i think that in someway there need to be stated that the prc claims Taiwan although it has no authority over it earlier in the article. Because the PRC claiming Taiwan is a large part of the conflict between Taiwan and the PRC. a solution for that could be to move the 4th paragraph between the currenr 1st and second paragrapgh.Finn.reports (talk) 16:40, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

The PRC claim to Taiwan is important, but the article should first make clear that Taiwan is a country in its own right. For comparison, Belize, a Central American country that has official diplomatic relations with Taiwan (ROC), is claimed almost in its entirety by the neighbouring country of Guatemala (which, strangely, also has official diplomatic relations with Taiwan (ROC)). However, the article about Belize doesn't start off by saying "Belize is claimed by Guatemala but it's ruled by Belize". Jargo Nautilus (talk) 19:00, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

The first sentence of the article calls Taiwan(ROC) a country and that would mean that the PRC claiming Taiwan as a part of its territory would come later as i suggested that the 4th paragraph should become the second paragraph.Finn.reports (talk) 19:36, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

As I said, the information about the PRC's claim to Taiwan should be included in the introduction to the article, but the core information about Taiwan as a country should come first. The way you phrased it earlier, "Taiwan is claimed by the People's Republic of China but governed and controlled by the Republic of China." came across as problematic to me, for the reasons that I explained. If it were to be rephrased whilst still conveying similar information, it might be more acceptable. The specific phrase "is controlled by the Republic of China" came across as conveying the non-neutral notion that Taiwan's sovereignty (under the name Republic of China) is illegitimate. The more neutral way to phrase this information would be something like: "Taiwan (Republic of China) is a country... China (People's Republic of China) maintains a territorial claim to the entire country of Taiwan." [Subsequent references to Taiwan and China needn't reference the ROC/PRC official names.] Jargo Nautilus (talk) 20:05, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

I get that "Taiwan is claimed by the PRC but governed and controlled by the ROC." might have not come across as neutral after you made that comment that is why i said after it that it should be more clear that the PRC claims Taiwan and i think the easiest and maybe the best way to do that is to make the 4th paragraph the second paragraph as i said earlier.Finn.reports (talk) 20:32, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Honestly, there's not a huge difference between having the paragraph about Taiwan's political status placed as the fourth paragraph versus as the second paragraph. The introduction of a Wikipedia article is supposed to be a summary of points that are elaborated on in the body of the article. The introduction is not really supposed to be an "advertisement" or political statement. In fact, looking at the actual contents of the body of the article, the segment on Taiwan's history is clearly placed higher up than the segment on Taiwan's political status. If you were to rearrange the introduction as you've suggested, you would have to rearrange the body segments as well. Frankly, I think that's a pointless exercise, though you have every right to attempt to convince other editors that it's a good idea that will be productive and give additional substance to the article as a whole. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 20:45, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Taiwan and the ROC are not the same. The same thing would not have different histories (History of Taiwan vs History of the Republic of China). Currently, "Taiwan" is just an expedient common name of the ROC; end of story. They are actually two different entities. --Matt Smith (talk) 02:35, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

The Republic of China was a different entity pre-1949 when compared to post-1949. On Wikipedia, this is actually the current consensus since there's clearly an article titled "Republic of China (1912–1949)". Taiwan (Republic of China) and the People's Republic of China were both successor states of the Republic of China (1912–1949); the country having effectively been split into two post-1949. The original Republic of China government fled in exile to Taiwan and took over the administration of that territory, though that doesn't necessarily indicate that Taiwan (Republic of China) is a direct continuation of the Republic of China (1912–1949). Nominally, it is, but realistically, it isn't, and it hasn't been for decades. The boundary between the Republic of China and the modern Taiwanese republic (that is nominally still called the "Republic of China") is very vague, though one could consider the country to have changed regimes in 1996 when the first direct presidential election was held (often, it is considered to have changed a few years earlier, back in 1987, when Martial Law was lifted by the dictator Chiang Ching-kuo). EDIT: Actually, the descriptor "original Republic of China government" is somewhat misleading. One cannot deny that Chiang Kai-shek's KMT-led ROC regime on Taiwan came under heavy scrutiny, especially from former politicians of the ROC who remained in PRC-ruled mainland China, with regard to exactly how "legitimate" it was, and whether it represented the country of China as a whole, or was merely a "clique" of a failed dictator more interested in preserving his own power than serving the people. EDIT2: Here's the first sentence of that article that I linked: "The Republic of China (ROC), commonly known as China is a historical sovereign state in East Asia that was based in mainland China between 1912 and 1949, prior to the relocation of its government to the island of Taiwan." EDIT3: Here's an older version of that first sentence, since I noticed that it had been recently changed: "The Republic of China (ROC) was a sovereign state based in mainland China between 1912 and 1949, prior to the relocation of its government to the island of Taiwan." Jargo Nautilus (talk) 18:28, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Yes, the ROC fled to Taiwan in 1949. But Taiwan and the ROC are still two different entities, and that's why each has its own history. --Matt Smith (talk) 07:10, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

There's some truth to your point here, but there are different definitions as to what "Taiwan" is. Taiwan is a single island, it's an archipelago (the main island plus minor surrounding islands) and it's a country. Those are the three main definitions of Taiwan here on Wikipedia. So, true, Taiwan the island is not the same thing as Taiwan the country... But Taiwan the country... is a country. "Taiwan" is an alternative name for the Republic of China. By that logic, Taiwan is the same thing as the Republic of China. Even if "Taiwan" is not the official name of the country which is known as the Republic of China, it's still a very commonly used name for the country, and even government officials and administrative bodies within Taiwan refer to the country with that name (alongside the official name). For Christ's sake, the Republic of China passport has "TAIWAN" smack bang in the middle of it. So, your argument is not that Taiwan and the Republic of China are different things... Instead, you are arguing that the already well-established practice of referring to the Republic of China as "Taiwan" was wrong from the beginning, should have never gained traction and should be done away with immediately. Unfortunately, there's a fat chance of that ever happening, since the majority of people around the world know the Republic of China as "Taiwan" these days. When people do come across the name "Republic of China", they often mistake this for the official name of mainland China's government; even Donald Trump made this mistake, I recall. So yeah... The Republic of China is Taiwan simply because that's what international society as a whole believes. So, you're not gonna win this argument. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 17:05, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Says the guy who failed to make clear his definition of "Taiwan" before making the "one and the same" assertion. --Matt Smith (talk) 06:26, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

I've removed "and is the most populous country and largest economy that is not a member of the United Nations (UN)" per the general agreement here. I don't see much agreement for any other particular changes. CMD (talk) 16:05, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Taiwan is a country!

The latest change is extremely confusing, and is only and obviously made to reflect the views of the CCP, which banned wikipedia in china, so there's really no point in kowtowing to this government! Tysonbanana4554 (talk) 12:19, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

@Tysonbanana4554: It's not just mainland China, it's most other nations. Just one example: "Australian Government does not recognise the ROC as a sovereign state and does not regard the authorities in Taiwan as having the status of a national government."^[1]

The preceding comment was seemingly left by Irtapil. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Taiwan&diff=next&oldid=990702941 Jargo Nautilus (talk) 14:36, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

The most recent few edits were contrary to longstanding community consensus and I have reverted them. Thanks for highlighting it. Île flottante (talk) 13:11, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

I think there is a double standard on Wikipedian geography. There are many other regions on Wikipedia that are called anything BUT a country (de facto state, break away state etc) even though those regions self-declare themselves a country but are not de jure status, and basically only 15 or less countries recognize them as a country. I see that a news article was more credible than UN, are news sources really what Wikipedia deem more credible than actual organizations that deal with politics? --XiaoSiWoLe (talk) 11:22, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

I think the point you might be missing is that only one thing can be true at a time “de facto” but there may be infinite "de jure" truths at the same time. Thats the brilliant thing about law (especially international law), multiple contradictory things can be true at the same time. De jure Taiwan is *simultaneously* an independent country (Republic of China), an independent country (Republic of China, Taiwan), an independent country (Taiwan), a mere body politic, a rump state, a transitionary postcolonial state, a separate customs territory, and a province of China (there are a few more but today I’m giving explaining this on a wikipedia page not giving a polisci lecture). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:15, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

The issue here is that the ROC no longer has "de jure" sovereignty, as the majority of the UN recognizes the PRC as the successor to the ROC. The ROC has lost de jure sovereignty, and so is not a country. Just like Kosovo, the SADR or Abkhazia, the ROC should be called a de facto state. StrangeSponge (talk) 22:58, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Thats not what de jure sovereignty means. Also welcome to Wikipedia! I see that this is your first post. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:23, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

I see your point now. Since the ROC is a legitimate government of China, I think Taiwan should be called something along the lines of "partially-recognized country".StrangeSponge (talk) 15:17, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

How did you get the take-away from what I said that "the ROC is a legitimate government of China”? I never even mentioned legitimacy which is a different concept so far undiscussed here.Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:45, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Sorry for any misunderstanding, but my comment was just a clarification about my stance on the topic. StrangeSponge (talk) 16:36, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

XiaoSiWoLe Using the UN as a source to how we define a country introduces a poltiical bias though. The United Nations is a political organization, they take sides on political matters. Think of it like a private golf club; if a private golf course tells you that you are not a member and therefore not a golfer. Does that really make your not a golfer even if you are indeed a golfer? Eclipsed830 (talk) 08:58, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Bravo to Horse Eye's explanation! Finally someone explained the Taiwan question perfectly. The ROC should be de jure ruler of all China but what can be considered by a lot of people as 'de facto' is in reality de jure Mtonna257 (talk) 15:23, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Well, to actually say, an edit I made on my country's wiki was reverted. Don't know why! Citing the Constitution was deemed as false info and vandalism!! Mtonna257 (talk) 11:34, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Merci! Let's brace for more controversies Tysonbanana4554 (talk) 13:22, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, it’s better to stick to the own Wikipedia guidelines and keep actual information which states Taiwan Island a “de facto” State and not a “country” which is not since it lacks “de jure” status. Keeping facts neutral is the best way to go whether you fancy CPC or not.

Have a nice day Tyson! Junxin02 (talk) 18:42, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

It might be helpful for you to stop using “de jure” and “de facto” since you don’t know what the terms mean. A state exists de jure when three conditions are met: a determined population on a determined territory with an effective independent government. Whether other states recognise said state has no bearing. Consequently, a State exists when three conditions of fact are met which means that a de jure state and a de facto state are perfect synonyms. Using Latin expressions you don’t understand doesn’t lend your argument the credibility you might mistakenly think it does. Île flottante (talk) 13:46, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

No, those conditions would make it a de facto state. It would be a de jure state if it actually governed the territory and population that its constitution says it does. TFD (talk) 15:17, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

No, again your use of the term of de jure is incorrect. The conditions for statehood are never determined by the internal constitutional order of a state. The de jure conditions of statehood are posed by international customary law and they are not affected by whether a state controls the entirety of its claimed territory. By your own logic, any state which has a territorial dispute over land it does not effectively administer would not exist de jure but simply de facto. Were your assertion correct, India would only be a de facto state (part of its claimed territory is administered by China), as would many other major states. The term distinction between de facto and de jure states is one that is wholly alien to the law and only used by those who do not understand the elementary principles of public international law. Île flottante (talk) 15:31, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Since 1991 the Constitution has defined Free area of the Republic of China to mean the same thing wikipedia mean by Taiwan. The current constitution does not claim to govern the mainland or its population. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:36, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

TFD As others have stated, the Taiwanese government limited their effective jurisdiction and the areas for which ROC constitutional law applies to during democratic reforms in the early 1990's. Here is the official "national" administrative division map of the ROC at all levels ("國家各級行政區域圖"), directly from the ROC Department of Land Management. Eclipsed830 (talk) 03:16, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

The government of the the Republic of China only governs Taiwan Territory and makes no serious claim to the mainland. However, de jure (under the "Constitution of the "Republic of China (Taiwan)" which is the supreme law, it claims the mainland. Laws in any constitution can only be changed under the procedures set out in the constitution. "Effectively," which you used, means "actually but not officially or explicitly" (OED) or de facto rather than de jure.

Île flottante, we would say that de jure the Republic of India includes all the territory claimed in its constitution, while de facto it governs only a small area. So if it were reduced to a small territory and the world recognized an other regime that effectively controlled the rest of India, we would no longer call it the de jure government of India. TFD (talk) 06:52, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

TFD (talk) 06:52, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

TFD I'm not sure if you missed a ":" and were replying to my comment or not- but which article of the ROC Constitution specifically "claims" the "Mainland"? Also to be clear, the ROC Constitution itself does not change, but constitutional law can be amended through the Additional Articles of the ROC Constitution. Many parts of the ROC Constitution no longer apply, as there isn't even a National Assembly anymore. Eclipsed830 (talk) 14:22, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Eclipsed830 "Article 4 The territory of the Republic of China according to its existing national boundaries shall not be altered except by resolution of the National Assembly." Since the National Assembly no longer exists, Article 12 of the Additional Articles of the Constitution of the Republic of China provides a new method to amend the constitution: it must receive a 3/4ths vote in the Legislative Yuan followed by a vote over 50% in a referendum "in the free area of the Republic of China." TFD (talk) 15:44, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

I don’t understand your point, both "existing national boundaries” and "free area of the Republic of China” are synonyms for what we on Wikipedia call Taiwan. In no way is that passage claiming sovereignty over the PRC/the mainland. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:50, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

TFD Exactly, the Free Area of the ROC is the territory that the ROC Constitution applies within. Article 1 of the Additional Articles also canceled out Article 4 of the Constitution: "The provisions of Article 4 and Article 174 of the Constitution shall not apply." Furthermore, the ROC Supreme Court was asked with Interpretation 328 in 1993 if Article 4 defined the ROC territory, for which they essentially stated Article 4 merely established instructions for changing the territory, and that defining "existing national boundaries" would be a political question that could be solved through the political process detailed in Article 4, but not by the current constitutional law or the judiciary branch (effectively abstaining from defining "existing national boundaries"). Eclipsed830 (talk) 16:14, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Article 1 of the Additional Articles does not cancel out the territory of the ROC, it cancels out the original amending formula, which it replaces. And the "existing national boundaries" should mean those in existence or claimed when the constitution was written in 1947 in mainland China. I can't follow the Judicial Court document. Do you have an reliable secondary sources that say it means that the ROC no longer claims mainland China? TFD (talk) 16:54, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

TFD I think my wording is a bit confusing as I didn't want to turn this into a discussion forum, but I was specifically talking about the ROC claims with respect to the Constitution. My point is that the ROC Constitution isn't specific in defining its own territory. You are saying "existing national boundaries" refers to those boundaries in existence when the Constitution was written in 1947, but by 1947 the KMT already lost much of the north, the south was still controlled by Cliques and Mongolia was already recognized as an independent country by the ROC. Some people will make the argument that "existing national boundaries" refers to the territory of the ROC on 1 January 1912 after the Xinhai Revolution, but then "existing national boundaries" wouldn't include the island of Taiwan since the Qing signed it away to Japan with the Treaty of Shimonoseki. Here is an opinion piece in that mentions Interpretation 328, but honestly there aren't many articles on this issue in English. Eclipsed830 (talk) 04:54, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for providing that link. I notice that the author says that most experts interpret the existing national boundaries as I would have. The CP in 1947 considered itself to be within the ROC, it's dispute was with the KMT. The PRP isn't a country that broke away from the ROC, it considers itself the successor state. IOW the CP took control of the ROC except for Taiwan and renamed the country the PRP. But the KMT refused to recognize the new government, claiming they were the rightful government. While the ROC would probably recognize the PRP as the lawful governemnt of mainland China, China will not recognize the ROC as the legitimate government of Taiwan. if Taiwan recognizes the PRP it would mean either that they had surrendered to CP rule or that they had declared independence, which would anger the PRP. So they remain in a largely unrecognized government in exile that continues to control a small part of China.

Therefore, Taiwan operates as an independent state with limited official recognition, but with a lot of unofficial recognition.

TFD (talk) 19:35, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

This also isnt your first edit, your account has been active since 2016 and your first edit was at Drishadvati river[33]. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:06, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Come on, that's just adding an internal link. You know what I mean. --In wkpd (talk) 15:04, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Maybe Taiwan(ROC) should be called a de facto country as that is what the situation is and as other countries with limited recognition on wikipedia also are being stated as de facto. Or other countries who are stated as de facto should be listed as countries.Finn.reports (talk) 19:47, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Your second suggestion should be implemented. All states with limited recognition, as they are listed on Wikipedia, should be described in their respective articles as "countries". In their blurb/intro, an explanation of disputes relating to their political status can be provided. EDIT: Each country's situation is different. The way that Taiwan is described on its own Wiki page should have no bearing on the ways that other countries are described on their own Wiki pages, and vice versa. Taiwan's current description as a "country" has been the result of months of community discussion and consensus that has specifically been about this one page. The discussions on this page about Taiwan should not affect the discussions about other countries on other pages, at least not directly. Personally, I do think Kosovo, Somaliland and Artsakh should be described as countries, but it's not within my power to change their descriptions within their respective Wikipedia articles without first establishing a community consensus with other editors within their own articles. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 19:56, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Taiwan should be listed as a de facto country or a country with limited recognition as that is the current situation. Of course every country that is disputed or has limited recognition has a different situation but one thing they have in common is that they are all countries with limited recognition or disputed, which makes them comparable in that way.Finn.reports (talk) 20:24, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

That's not the point. What I was saying was that, regardless of what you personally believe, each article on Wikipedia is independent from every other article. Whatever we do and say here, on Taiwan, has no bearing on what is done and said on other articles on Wikipedia. So, really, discussions about whether to call Taiwan a "country" or "de facto country" should have no bearing on similar discussions about other countries (whether they are members of the United Nations or not) and vice versa. On that note, there's no real authority being used to determine whether these ten "de facto countries" (as listed on List of states with limited recognition) are countries or de facto countries, aside from the list of United Nations member states. However, UN membership actually isn't the definitive word on whether or not a country qualifies as a real country. Switzerland, for example, joined the UN in 2002, but I'm sure you'd agree that it was a country even before it joined the UN. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 20:30, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

I never said that only UN member states are countries. But Taiwan(ROC) is a country with limited recognition at the moment but it is still a country as it operates as a country and has sovereignty over a territory the only thing that it doesn't has is wide spread recognition that is why i think it might not be a bad idea to refer Taiwan(ROC) as a country with limited recognisition or a de facto country (which is a country with limited recognisition)EDIT: Which is the most neutral as it describes the current situation.Finn.reports (talk) 20:40, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

In that vein of thinking, China is also a "state with limited recognition", since 16 member states or observer states of the United Nations explicitly do not have official diplomatic relations with China; those countries are Taiwan's 14 UN allies, the Holy See (a UN observer, which has relations with Taiwan) and Bhutan (which has relations with neither China nor Taiwan). China does have widespread recognition, sure, but it's certainly not recognised by 100% of countries around the world or even by 100% of UN member states. So, in fact, if you want to be EXTRA neutral, you should go over to China's Wiki page and change its description in its intro to "China is a country with limited recognition". Jargo Nautilus (talk) 20:55, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

China doesn't have limited recognition but has wide spread recognition as most countries recognise it. Taiwan is a country with limited recognition and that is just the current situation. It seems like you don't want to be neutral which is what wikipedia should be.Finn.reports (talk) 12:49, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Just on a purely technical note China is a state with limited recognition and there is no disagreement on that point within the Political Science literature. Arguing otherwise is like arguing that the sky is green. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:40, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Sorry to interrupt your conversation. I have a question (not an argument): Why is Palestine, recognised by 138 UN member countries and already an observer member of the UN considered a "de jure" sovereign "state", "claiming" the West Bank and the Gaza strip (it's constituents), but Taiwan, not a UN member of any kind and recognised by 14 very small countries (mainly small islands) considered a "country"? The double standard is unbearable.

I repeat that I'm just questioning, and I'm mainly concerned that Palestine is not considered a country, but that could be tolerated if there was some kind of standard. Nicxjo (talk) 09:04, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Because Taiwan has at one time (as the Republic of China) been a member of the UN and a fully sovereign state. Palestine has never been either of those.Slatersteven (talk) 17:06, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Because Palestine can't even enforce sovereignty within its own internationally-recognised borders. Israeli tanks drive around Palestinian soil on the West Bank daily, Israeli soldiers shoot Palestinian citizens on Palestinian soil regularly, and the West Bank is full of Israeli settlements where the Palestinian government holds zero control. If you look at this map, this is the actual control that the Palestinian government holds within its own borders. In reality, they control less than 30% of their own land. This is absolutely not comparable to the situation in Taiwan. --benlisquare_T•C•E 09:08, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Why saying "Taiwan is a country." as the first sentence is very wrong and misleading

Taiwan officially the Republic of China (ROC), is a country in East Asia. Neighbouring countries include the People's Republic of China (PRC) to the northwest, ...

Taiwan, an island in East Asia, is legally a part of China (the PRC), but also broadly considered a de facto state.[note 1] 

"Imagine a staff making a PPT that will include a map of China, and he sees the Google result on the right. He may choose a map of China without Taiwan, and cause trouble to his company." You honestly think this is a thing that happens? That's bloody fantastic, if true. In any case, why should I care whether some buffoon makes a PowerPoint and ends up losing his China job as a result? If he's that stupid to make such a blunder like that, then that's totally on him. Personally, I prefer not to do business with totalitarian states. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 11:14, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

I must say, initially, I thought you were genuinely concerned with improving the contents of this Wikipedia article. Now, I know you're just salty because you lost your China job over some PowerPoint that you threw together in half an hour. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 11:25, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Your formatting is bloody annoying. With that aside, I'd like to point out that Taiwan is not legally part of the PRC and never has been. I will respond to the rest of your points in a moment. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 23:01, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Right, so, first off, Taiwan has never been part of the PRC. The PRC claims Taiwan, and very few countries officially recognise Taiwan as a country, sure. But in reality, these are actually two separate issues, although they are related. It's not a zero-sum game. When countries don't recognise Taiwan, that doesn't automatically mean that they recognise Taiwan as part of the PRC. For example, the United States doesn't recognise Taiwan as part of the PRC, despite having official diplomatic relations with the PRC. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 23:06, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

There is another point that is important to highlight. The United Nations does not have the capacity to recognise the sovereignty of states. Only states can recognise other states. { https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQ0Lfe8jVBI }. The United Nations has a list of member states, which is commonly seen as a measure of sovereignty, but this doesn't technically amount to recognition. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 23:18, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

It's true that international law does not recognise Taiwan as a country, technically speaking. More accurately, Taiwan is politically a proto-state, i.e. an emerging country. That's actually a more suitable way to describe it. However, unlike most other proto-states, Taiwan has all of the trappings of a fully-developed sovereign state, giving the impression that it actually is a proper country even though it isn't. The reason Taiwan has so much infrastructure already in existence is that it is effectively the successor state to the Republic of China on Taiwan, which was effectively a rump state of the Republic of China (1912–1949). There is an ongoing debate in international and domestic (Taiwanese/ROC) law about whether Taiwan (Republic of China) is the successor state of the Republic of China (1912–1949) or is a completely new country. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 23:23, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

What must be said, however, is that Taiwan is a proto-state that is occupying territory that, as of yet, is actually not under the sovereignty of any official country in the world. Taiwan is not under China's sovereignty, though it also isn't under the sovereignty of Japan or the United States, two other countries that are strongly legally tied to Taiwan, nor is Taiwan under Taiwan's own sovereignty. However, Taiwan also isn't terra nullius since it also clearly has a defined population. More accurately, Taiwan is a non-self-governing territory whose status has not been resolved ever since Japan relinquished sovereignty over Taiwan in 1951 with the Treaty of San Francisco. The most similar political entity to Taiwan in the present day is probably Western Sahara, a former colony of Spain that never truly gained its independence. Spain relinquished sovereignty over Western Sahara but Mali and Morocco annexed Western Sahara shortly afterward. Mali later withdrew from the territory. Meanwhile, a localist pro-independence militia, the Polisario Front, took control of part of the territory and declared a Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic, which became a proto-state. In Taiwan's case, it was relinquished by Japan in 1951. However, China annexed Taiwan a few years earlier, in 1945, and Taiwan was shortly after disputed between the ROC and PRC regimes of China as a consequence of the Chinese Civil War. Taiwan's political status was never properly resolved due to the dispute over which government of China was legitimate. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 23:34, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

I agree with most of the paragraph above and would just like to add that, the US and the UK did not agree with China's unilateral action of annexing Taiwan and stated that the transfer of the territorial sovereignty of Taiwan needs to be settled in a peace treaty (which it was not in the later-concluded San Francisco Peace Treaty). --Matt Smith (talk) 02:41, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Yep. At the time that the ROC annexed Taiwan, few major world powers recognised this completely. The United States tacitly "allowed" the ROC to occupy Taiwan but never officially recognised the ROC's decision to fully integrate Taiwan into the ROC. Meanwhile, the UK switched diplomatic recognition from the ROC to the PRC very early on but still didn't recognise the ROC's unilateral annexation of Taiwan (I'm not sure whether the UK recognises Taiwan as "part of the PRC" nowadays, though). In the present day, there certainly are countries that recognise Taiwan as part of China (the PRC). This seemingly includes countries like Burma and Cambodia, both of which are dictatorships in Southeast Asia. However, there are also a number of countries that maintain diplomatic relations with the PRC but are also simultaneously ambiguous regarding their recognition of Taiwan as part of China. This includes the United States, Canada and Australia, to my knowledge. There are probably many other examples. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 05:18, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

The ROC was responsible for occupying Taiwan and that was part of the Allies' arrangements of the post-war military occupation just like the US was responsible for occupying the Japan proper. In fact, it was the US which used its navy ship to ship Chinese occupation forces onto Taiwan because the ROC did not have usable navy ships at that time.

As for the UK's current position of Taiwan's status, from the sources I've seen so far:

• The UK "acknowledged" the position of the government of the PRC that Taiwan was a province of the PRC and "recognised" the PRC Government as the sole legal Government of China.
• The UK does not recognize Taiwan as a state.

--Matt Smith (talk) 07:40, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Obviously, Taiwan's equivalent of the Polisario Front is the Democratic Progressive Party, which took control of Taiwan in 2000–2008, and again from 2016–present. Additionally, Lee Teng-hui a Kuomintang politician, was secretly working for the independence movement in order to undermine the ROC's authority over Taiwan; he was the president of the ROC from 1988–2000. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 23:36, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

The major difference between the Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) of Taiwan and the Polisario Front of Western Sahara is that the DPP usurped the Kuomintang/ROC rump state in Taiwan through legal, democratic means rather than violent warfare. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 23:40, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

In conclusion, Taiwan's political status is extremely complex. It's not a country per se, though it's also not legally part of the PRC either. I'm not totally against the rewording of Taiwan's description as a "country" in the introduction, since it's certainly not a proper country, as I've pointed out here. However, I am vehemently opposed to any notion that Taiwan is legally part of the PRC. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 23:44, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

I don't care if most countries don't officially recognize Taiwan as a sovereign country. It's doublespeak. Sure, they don't "officially" recognize it as a country, but de facto, they are dealing with Taiwan just like a country via "unofficial" channels. What matters the most here is how the media sees Taiwan, and most of them say Taiwan is a country. pandakekok9 (talk) Junk the Philippine anti-terror law! 04:19, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Firstly, WP:CONFLICTING is an essay, and not a Wikipedia policy, so it bears no substance when formulating policy-based decisions. When there is a content dispute, the article content follows the established community consensus, and based on past discussion, the consensus was that Wikipedia should use the phrasing "country" when referring to Taiwan. Editors who disagree with community consensus have no excuse to engage in edit warring and other such forms of disruptive editing, as seen from 21 November onwards; while it's certainly true that consensus can change at any time, this requires editors who challenge the status quo to initiate a community discussion to change the consensus first. Plus, contrary to the allegations brought forth by Nathan Rich's video, Wikipedia consensus is not a democratic vote, but rather is based on the validity of arguments from the perspective of policy, so the claim that the current consensus was brought forth by a majority of stupid editors picking on an oppressed minority of valiant editors through sheer numbers is completely inane and nonsensical.

Now, while I'd certainly welcome a new formal RFC discussion to gauge new consensus over this issue if editors are clamouring for one so much, I do have to address a few points that have been raised by proponents who have recently called for Taiwan to be rephrased as "legally part of the PRC" instead:

• Nathan Rich's video does an extremely poor job at directly addressing the points raised by the earlier RFC that established the consensus that Wikipedia should refer to Taiwan as a country, since he frames his desired talking point first, and then builds the scene around that. He makes no effort to address the Montevideo Convention, Taiwan's de facto foreign policy, or any of the theories of statehood. He desperately clings to "the UN says this, the UN says that", as if the UN is the sole arbitrator on determining what is and isn't a country (despite that countries have existed before the UN was formed in 1945, and that countries such as San Marino did not join the UN until very late into the game).
• There is excessive focus on how other limited-recognition entities such as Palestine are described in their article lead paragraphs. However, Wikipedia does not revolve around precedent, nor is uniformity between articles stipulated by policy. There is no policy-based argument for multiple different articles to follow any semblance of consistency.
• User:In wkpd's argument that Wikipedia's phrasing harms readers and companies because they might accidentally omit Taiwan from a map of China is dubious at best, because Wikipedia does not exist to fix injustices or pursue noble causes. Per Wikipedia:General disclaimer, readers may only use Wikipedia at their own risk. If somebody is shot and killed because of one of my edits to Wikipedia, it's not my fault, nor is it Wikipedia's fault.
• The ROC no longer has de jure claim over the entirety of mainland China, the Republic of Mongolia, and Tannu Tuva as of 2005, and anyone that claims otherwise is intentionally twisting the spirit of the law with intent to deceive. Taiwan and Mongolia established country-to-country relations in 2002, so anyone who makes the argument that mainland China is "constitutionally" territory of the ROC is conveniently ignoring the case with Mongolia. Furthermore, prior to 2002, Chinese diaspora with ancestry from Tianjin, Hubei, Jiangsu, Fujian, or any other Chinese province could apply for an ROC passport with special status that did not grant right of abode in Taiwan; now, they cannot, further cementing the fact that now that Kuomintang dictatorship rule has ended, Chinese citizens are no longer ROC citizens, in the eyes of ROC law.
• Per the dogma of self-determination, a country is a country when it considers itself one. The Kuomintang is no longer in power, and the present-day official position of the Tsai Ing-wen administration of the ROC government is that "there is no need for Taiwan to declare independence, because it is already independent, and its name is the Republic of China on Taiwan". Until the Kuomintang comes back to power (and it seems more and more unlikely with each passing day, based on two-party preferred opinion polling), the Democratic Progressive Party's interpretation of the statehood of the ROC will remain the official interpretation of the ROC government. On the other hand, the PRC has never placed boots on the ground in Taiwan at any point in history, and it is the PRC that declared its own secessionist state from the ROC in 1949, and not the other way around. With this in mind, any suggestion that the PRC somehow holds enforceable sovereignty over Taiwan based on the succession of states theory is making a claim based on pure fantasy. To argue that Wikipedia's neutrality policy requires us to also give equal representation to this fantasy is a pure farce, because the neutrality policy makes it very clear that fringe viewpoints do not deserve "equal footing".

This discussion has already gotten quite messy, with it splitting into multiple talk page sections for no apparently useful purpose; it'd be much appreciated if we can have the discussion take place in a single location for the sake of comprehensibility. --benlisquare_T•C•E 09:00, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

I totally agree with pretty much everything you've written here. I just want to point out that In wkpd has declared lower down on this page that he only joined Wikipedia a few days ago. Furthermore, he has no prior knowledge about Taiwan, China, the ROC, the PRC, or literally anything relevant to this Wikipedia article. He's far from an expert on this topic... The topic literally has nothing to do with him. He claims that he decided to join Wikipedia and start assaulting this article on its claim "Taiwan is a country" after initially watching Nathan Rich's YouTube video "Taiwan is not a Country (even if you wish really hard)", which was only released a couple of days ago as well. I honestly have no clue what this guy's schtick is... It's just bizarre, to be honest. Like... why is he putting so much effort into defaming and denouncing Taiwan even though he literally didn't give two hoots about this issue only like a week ago? It's seriously confusing, concerning and comical. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 12:40, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Lets not comment on users here, if you have an issue raise it as wp:ani.Slatersteven (talk) 12:43, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether you're replying to me. However, I will say, I literally only just regurgitated information that In wkpd already laid out in another comment on this same talk page. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 13:13, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

It was not a reply to any one user, hence why I did not indent it as one. It is a general notice to stop doing it.Slatersteven (talk) 13:15, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

That makes sense. I will say, I'm generally quite concerned about the fact that Nathan Rich's video was cited in this talk page (twice!!) without any background being provided about Nathan Rich's political motives and academic background. The statements that he made in his video were taken completely at face value by numerous Wikipedians in this talk page, and an absurd and furious debate was sparked and has been raging on for days. Again and again, I've questioned the entire foundation of this debate... Why are Wikipedians here refusing to question the veracity of the source? Several Wikipedians have claimed that "the source is irrelevant and is just a conversation starter". This argument is doubtful... Why should we permit a conversation to be started when the very basis of that conversation cannot be verified and when certain Wikipedians are actively trying to prevent other Wikipedians from even attempting to verify this basis? In my opinion, this entire situation is an attempt at gaslighting by malign actors. It is potentially even a brigade that is being sponsored by Nathan Rich himself. He has a history of doing that (he wrote his own Wikipedia article and tried to promote his business ventures there; however, he was eventually shut down by admins/moderators). Jargo Nautilus (talk) 13:35, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

In the space of one week, 15,000 words have been exchanged throughout this debate. Even if Nathan Rich doesn't win this battle, he will still have gained for himself a significant platform that he certainly does not deserve in any capacity. This entire situation is a publicity stunt on the behalf of Nathan Rich. No matter what happens, he will still make big bucks in the end. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 13:53, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Neither of your points matters. Whether other countries recognize Taiwan or whether international law recognizes it is irrelevant to Taiwan itself. A country is a country whether anyone else recognizes it or even knows it exists. --Khajidha (talk) 15:01, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Not true, I (for example) an not a country even if I now say "I am the country of Steve".Slatersteven (talk) 15:03, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

I never said that a person who called themselves a country was a country, so I'm not sure what your point here is. --Khajidha (talk) 15:35, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

True, so what does " A country is a country whether anyone else recognizes it or even knows it exists" even mean? I took it to mean "it it calls itself a country" is that not the case? So is Principality of Sealand a country, or Principality of Freedonia what about Grand Fenwick?Slatersteven (talk) 16:37, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

The first sentences doesnt say that Taiwan is a country but that the ROC is a country which it is often reffered as. I do think that the first sentence should be improved by saying for example "Taiwan officially the Republic of China is a partially recognised country/country with limited recognition/de facto country in east Asia." one of those three options would be the best in my opinion and the most factually correct and the most neutral.Finn.reports (talk) 15:19, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Why specifically single out Taiwan then? Why not do the same for China, North Korea, South Korea and Israel, all "partially recognised" countries? The consistent and repetitive focus on Palestine and Abkhazia within this discussion is cherry-picking. --benlisquare_T•C•E 16:43, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Because those countries are widely recognized and Taiwan(ROC) is not. You dont single out Taiwan(ROC)in that way it is just the current situation.Finn.reports (talk) 17:02, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Unrecognised in terms of reality, or unrecognised merely in terms of bureaucratic doublespeak with the aim of saving face? Can Taiwan purchase F-16V jets and M1 Abrams tanks? Does United States federal law prohibit the sales of advanced jets and tanks to non-state actors? Just like any interaction between human adults, what someone says at face value isn't necessarily reflective of their true intentions, and we should not pretend that the official statements of countries represent any form of reality, and instead look at the real-world behaviours of countries instead. Third-party reliable sources are certainly capable of distinguishing between de facto government policy and diplomatic circus, so there's no reason why Wikipedia cannot do the same. Governments say one thing, and do another; governments claim that they acknowledge the one-China policy, while treating Taiwan as a country in reality. --benlisquare_T•C•E 17:18, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

The current situation is that Taiwan(ROC) is officialy recognised by 15 countries. So the best terms to describe Taiwan(ROC) would be a country with limited recognition/a partially recognised country/ a de facto country. Taiwan(ROC) is a sovereign country but it is just a sovereign country with limited recognition as most countries dont officialy recognise it and most countries dont have any official or unoffical diplomatic relationships with Taiwan(ROC).Finn.reports (talk) 18:28, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

The term "de facto country" is redundant. It just means "objectively, based on the reality of the situation, a country". Describing Taiwan as just a "country" carries the exact same meaning. Now, what you could say is that Taiwan is a country, although many countries believe its existence to be illegitimate and a violation of Chinese sovereignty. However, objectively, many countries actually do recognise that Taiwan exists, regardless of whether they consider it to be legitimate. This is evident since many countries conduct trade with Taiwan and have "representative offices" in Taiwan. EDIT: Taiwan is basically like the black market or the deep web of the international community, especially with regard to consumer products, manufacturing and tech. EDIT2: Here in Australia, you can go to a Costco and purchase Taiwanese beef jerky that is clearly labelled "made in Taiwan". To me, that amounts to recognition. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 02:18, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Most countries don't have any diplomatic relations with Taiwan(ROC). If a label of "made in Taiwan" is your indication of something calling a country with widespread recognition. Than do you consider Hong Kong a country too? As things that are manufactured in Hong Kong are also labelled "made in Hong Kong" except by The U.S. since August.Finn.reports (talk) 14:24, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Its interesting that you choose to focus on diplomatic relations rather than economic, educational, law enforcement, military and intelligence relations. Most theorists consider diplomatic relations to be the least important of the bunch. I’m not aware of a major power that doesn't have relations with Taiwan, are you? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:16, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

I said any diplomatic relationships which means no unofficial or official diplomatic relationships. Major powers dont decide which countries have widespread recognition and no major power has official relationships with Taiwan(ROC). Most countries dont have any relationships with taiwan official or unofficial which means that Taiwan(ROC) is a country with limited recognition/partially recognised or a de facto country.Finn.reports (talk) 12:07, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

No. Your opinion here is ridiculously POV. Moreover your claims regarding international law are simply wrong as Taiwan meets all the conditions of international law for statehood. Taiwan is both a de facto and a de jure state (even though such designations are not technical legal terms as they are synonymous). Île flottante (talk) 09:26, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

There are opinions that Taiwan does not meet all the conditions of international law for statehood because the PRC's claim of sovereignty over the island of Taiwan has been recognized by most states in the world. Therefore, "Taiwan is both a de facto and a de jure state" is a POV, too. --Matt Smith (talk) 11:23, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

For a guy claiming to understand international law you’ve just stuck your foot in your mouth... "Taiwan is both a de facto and a de jure state” is a completely unobjectionable statement and in no way negates the statement "Taiwan is both a de facto state and a de jure province of China” because multiple de jure truths exist at the very same time... Especially in international law. If South Korea made a law saying that Taiwan was South Korea’s official butt plug emporium then de jure Taiwan would be a South Korean butt plug emporium along with an independent country and province of China. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:16, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

And has any polity made a law saying that Taiwan is a state? None. --Matt Smith (talk) 07:56, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

You mean besides Taiwan itself right? Just take a look at 22 USC §3303 posted by Benlisquare below. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:42, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

That law still does not say Taiwan is a state. It just says that, to the US, the notions of country, state, etc, apply to Taiwan as well. In my opinion, the purpose of that law is to make up for the lack of diplomatic relations between the two, which is mentioned at the beginning of the law.

Here is a more straightforward quote:

--Matt Smith (talk) 04:32, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Thats not a law, and in context that doesn't mean what you’re trying to say it does. You’re also dodging the point of Taiwanese law, which is all we’ve ever needed. Remember you said "And has any polity made a law saying that Taiwan is a state? None.” which we have established is false. I’m not sure why you phrased it that way, even taking the Chinese line Taiwan is a polity. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:47, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

I was referring to other polities, not the ROC. The ROC of course can say whatever it likes in its own law. --Matt Smith (talk) 15:07, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

You should have said that then, there was no way to get that from what you said. Do you accept that as written your statement was incorrect? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:12, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Which statement of mine are you referring to? And why is it incorrect? --Matt Smith (talk) 16:15, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

"And has any polity made a law saying that Taiwan is a state? None.” You’ve agreed its incorrect, you said that you meant polity besides Taiwan.Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:37, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

I meant polities besides the ROC. If you think the US defined Taiwan as a state, I had explained that I think you're misunderstanding its law. And if you really know about the US's policy toward Taiwan, you would have clearly known that the US has always regarded Taiwan's status as unsettled since 1952. It's a general knowledge in the diplomatic circles when it comes to Taiwan-US relationship. --Matt Smith (talk) 03:05, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Don’t try to change the subject. It might be what you meant but its not what you wrote. What you wrote was wrong and you need to own that right now. You’ve read 22 USC §3303 below so you know that under US law Taiwan is to be treated the same as other "countries, nations, states, governments, or similar entities.” now you haven't actually presented any law for us to interpret, have you? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:58, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

I didn't and don't want to change the subject. I was just providing a side evidence that the US does not regard Taiwan as a state.

You can't deny the fact that the "22 USC §3303" does not explicitly define Taiwan as a state. You misinterpreted the law.

If the US really regards Taiwan as a state, the law never needs to use such an ambiguous wording saying the terms of countries, nations, states, governments, or similar entities shall apply with respect to Taiwan. In stead, the law can be straightforward and simply say "The United States recognizes Taiwan as a state." Plain and simple. --Matt Smith (talk) 09:38, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

"The United States has irrefutable evidence that Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction." --benlisquare_T•C•E 11:14, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

What is side evidence? I’ve never encountered that term before. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:48, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Well, I thought "side evidence" is an English phrase, and it looks like my memory didn't serve correctly. I'm not sure how you native English speakers call it, but I meant "evidence from a different angle". --Matt Smith (talk) 16:31, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Let's not lose track of the elephant in the room here. The point of all this discussion is that governments tell lies as naturally as they breathe, and if you still don't understand this elementary concept, then you have no business "schooling us" on international geopolitics. The United States has no obligation to be straightforward, because it is the very nature of geopolitics to read between the lines, however that does not change what the United States' real world actions have been over the past half century. If you are insistent that we make judgements over the words of governments rather than their actions, then there's no resolution to this, and we'll be in perpetual disagreement. --benlisquare_T•C•E 22:18, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Would you mind sharing with us your conclusion? --Matt Smith (talk) 10:20, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Taiwan(ROC) is a country with limited or a partially recognised country which is often refered to as de facto. Taiwan is at the moment not a de jure country as it has not widespread recognition.^[1]Finn.reports (talk) 14:24, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Taiwan is de jure a country, but its also de jure a province of China. Multiple de jure truths can exist at the same time, only one de facto truth can exist at the same time. You can’t keep making this claim when you don’t understand the term you’re using. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:16, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Taiwan(ROC) is not de jure country as explained by this sentence from cambridge dictionary: "The country has de facto independence now, and it will soon be recognized de jure by the world's governments." ^[2]Taiwan(ROC) is not widely recognized so it is not a de jure country.Finn.reports (talk) 12:07, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

You still seem to be quite convinced that "because a country says so, then it is so", and don't believe in roundabout diplomatic doublespeaks. How about I give you an example of monkey-patching legalese that'll nip it in the bud? I present to you, United States Code, 22 USC §3303:

Put into simple words, you can't refer to Taiwan as a country because the United States "recognises" (lol) the one-China policy, so instead, the US has redefined the term "country" to mean "country, or Taiwan". The English language has essentially been monkey-patched by lawyers, just so America can pretend that it "respects" the one-China policy. Can we please stop pretending that countries actually mean what they say? It's clear as day that reality does not work that way. If the US did not recognise Taiwan (while trying to give China face at the same time), then there would be no need to go to such great lengths to jump through all these legalese hoops. The United States and its allies, in practice, recognise Taiwan as a country, while pretending otherwise, end of story. Taiwan has global recognition in practice, end of story. --benlisquare_T•C•E 16:57, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

We use dictionaries for their definitions, not to cherry pick example sentences from. Even by your argument Taiwan is widely recognized, we’re arguing about different types of recognition not an absolute lack of recognition. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:11, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Taiwan(ROC) is not a widely recognised country only 66 countries have a relationship with Taiwan(ROC) with most of them unofficial.Finn.reports (talk) 17:50, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

That doesn't sound right... What is your source for such a specific statement? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:55, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

The wikipedia page of foreign relationships Taiwan^[3]Finn.reports (talk) 18:07, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a reliable source and I don’t see that number in any of the sources there. Which one did you see it in? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:14, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

I made i mistake i meant to say 73 but i only looked at the representative offices in Taiwan. That number is in the lead of the article of you add the official relationships with the unofficial relationships.EDIT: I only looked at the representatives in Taiwan with the first number which is 66.Finn.reports (talk) 18:18, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

The list on the wikipedia page isn't meant to be exhaustive and one of the numbers in the lead is unsourced and doesn't appear in the body. We cant use that to make an assertion about how many states have relations with Taiwan. We need a WP:RS. Also just a point of order but the lead gives either 14 or 15 and 57 as the number of states... So the number you would be arguing would be 71 or 72. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:23, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Here is an other source although the official relationships is higher in this sources as it has dropped the last few years.^[4]Finn.reports (talk) 18:27, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

www.worldatlas.com is not a reliable source. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:37, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Jocstech (talk) 17:02, 2 December 2020 (UTC) TAIWAN IS NOT A COUNTRY, PLEASE RESPECT CHINA.

I agree. Please respect the Republic of China. Begone, communist shill! Jargo Nautilus (talk) 01:20, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Maybe if the PRC stop pretending that they are socialist, stop pretending that they respect human rights, and stop harassing our fishermen in the West Philippine Sea, I'd consider respecting them. pandakekok9 (talk) Junk the Philippine anti-terror law! 03:59, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Notes

To Whom it May Concern: Nathan Rich on "Taiwan"

There is a new YouTube video that has just come out on Taiwan, entitled Wikipedia Takes Political Stance, Calls Taiwan a "Country". Will be helpful if Wikipedia contributors to this article will review this most-recent take on Taiwan by an American ex-pat who lives in China, and give their opinion on some of his arguments. Be well.Davidbena (talk) 17:03, 25 November 2020 (UTC)<be>

Did anyone actually end up reviewing Nathan Rich's video point-for-point? It seems that we just ended up descended into a pointless general discussion about Taiwan's sovereignty, with very little specific references to Nathan Rich's video. In any case, I've found this reaction video which could be of note. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvcCQPhbBmM Jargo Nautilus (talk) 00:43, 1 December 2020 (UTC)