Wikipedia:Main Page/Errors
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Errors in the summary of the featured article
Errors with "In the news"
Errors in "Did you know ..."
- ... that the ancient Greek game polis is one of the world's oldest strategy games?
@Piotrus, Generalissima, AirshipJungleman29, and TheSandDoctor: the Royal Game of Ur is 2,000 years older. One of the oldest is only true because so few survive, not because it was chronologicallmy close to the origin of these games. Fram (talk) 14:11, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Fram: would "...one of the world's oldest surviving strategy games" work better? TheSandDoctor Talk 14:15, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- I went with "oldest known", which matches what's stated in the article. I'm not saying this solves the issues, but it's at least an incremental improvement. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:18, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Fram, the source makes it clear that race games, such as the Game of Ur, are not wholly strategy games, instead falling into the category of "race games", which combine luck and strategy. By contrast, games such as polis were entirely strategy driven. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:22, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- The article on Ur calls it a strategy game, and our article on strategy games also includes things like Warhammer, which are also partially decided by dice, or Contract bridge, which starts with dealing cards randomly. The entirely strategy driven section (things like chess and checkers) seems to be a very small part of the much larger group of strategy games as usually (and by us) described, and the correctness of a hook shouldn't depend on the definition given in one source but contradicted by others (and e.g. our articles). Fram (talk) 14:29, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- The source cited at Royal Game of Ur classifies games into categories like "racing" and "strategy", and classifies the Royal Game of Ur as a "racing" game (Botermans 2008, p. 713). "strategy" could be made more specific as "pure strategy", but the hook doesn't appear incorrect. Rjjiii (talk) 15:03, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Exactly. I looked into it when writing the article. Sources that call Ur strategy are usually not very reliable. That aside, "one of the world oldest" is confirmed by sources and I don't see how one can see that claim as problematic. Indeed, polis claim to fame is that it is one of the world olest, if not the oldest, pure strategy game (as in, ones that did not involve luck through random generators like dice or cards). As for "so few survive", you may be right, but there are no sources for that, and certainly not any discussion of stuff that might have existed but did not survived. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:59, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- PS. We should also give weight to reliable sources, not often iffy and undersourced or unreliable classifications or typologies or claims in our articles. And here we have an expert (Thierry Depaulis) saying - as cited and quoted in the article - that "The two earliest attested games of 'strategy', Greek polis and Chinese weiqi (go) appear between 450 BCE and 300 BCE." Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:02, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- The article on Ur calls it a strategy game, and our article on strategy games also includes things like Warhammer, which are also partially decided by dice, or Contract bridge, which starts with dealing cards randomly. The entirely strategy driven section (things like chess and checkers) seems to be a very small part of the much larger group of strategy games as usually (and by us) described, and the correctness of a hook shouldn't depend on the definition given in one source but contradicted by others (and e.g. our articles). Fram (talk) 14:29, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
"Oldest" is a superlative and so, unless there's a tie, there can only be one. The phrase "one of the oldest" is therefore weaseling and so is not a "definite fact" as required by DYK. The hook can be simplified without loss of information:
- ... that polis is an ancient Greek strategy game?
To make it a bit more interesting, I suggest:
- ... that polis is an ancient Greek strategy game which resembles checkers?
- ... that dance teacher Mary Ann Wells, despite being in the "I AM" movement, did not enforce rigid technical standards on her students?
@Xoak, SL93, and AirshipJungleman29: I have read the I AM article, and the bolded article, but I don't see this juxtaposition as being meaningful. "Despite her association with the I AM Temple, which held to strict vegetarian practices, Wells focused on cultivating her students' passion for dance rather than enforcing rigid technical standards." What has a religion or vegetarianism to do with rigid technical dance standards? Fram (talk) 09:18, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- The source says "Despite her mysticism, further reinforced by membership in the I AM temple, whose tenets included strict vegetarianism, Wells’s teaching was not in any way cultish. She was an inspirer rather than a stickler for technical finesse. Most important, she instilled in her students a deep love for dance in all its forms." The hook (and the article) have shortened this in a way that makes the "despite" misleading. —Kusma (talk) 09:34, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- I did not promote this hook, so I cannot speak for its merits. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:11, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- @AirshipJungleman29: I don't follow your comment here... you've said "I did not promote this hook" with a link that appears to show that you did indeed promote it?! — Amakuru (talk) 12:18, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Amakuru, I promoted the hook " ... that Mary Ann Wells, considered the most influential ballet teacher of the Pacific Northwest, mentored numerous talented dancers, including Gerald Arpino, who went on to co-found the Joffrey Ballet?", as can be seen from the diff I provided, not the hook that is currently in the queue. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:22, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, apologies, I didn't read carefully enough. It seems that Theleekycauldron swapped the hook for another one at the admin checks phase, following discussion at WT:DYK. I'd suggest we pull this one and reopen the nom page as it appears the current hook is WP:SYNTH. — Amakuru (talk) 12:28, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Amakuru For the original promoted hook, the theleekycauldron raised an issue about if the source could be used for the word "influential" in any form. I suggest going with the original hook and cutting that part out to say "... that Mary Ann Wells mentored numerous talented dancers, including Gerald Arpino, who went on to co-found the Joffrey Ballet?" SL93 (talk) 13:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that the hook is better without "influential", but Arpino's co-founding of the Joffrey Ballet is not mentioned in the article or supported by the source. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:22, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- I could have sworn I saw it, but now I see that it was said in Arpino's article. I'm going to add it to the article with a source now. SL93 (talk) 13:34, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Firefangledfeathers Now done. SL93 (talk) 13:39, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that the hook is better without "influential", but Arpino's co-founding of the Joffrey Ballet is not mentioned in the article or supported by the source. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:22, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Amakuru For the original promoted hook, the theleekycauldron raised an issue about if the source could be used for the word "influential" in any form. I suggest going with the original hook and cutting that part out to say "... that Mary Ann Wells mentored numerous talented dancers, including Gerald Arpino, who went on to co-found the Joffrey Ballet?" SL93 (talk) 13:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, apologies, I didn't read carefully enough. It seems that Theleekycauldron swapped the hook for another one at the admin checks phase, following discussion at WT:DYK. I'd suggest we pull this one and reopen the nom page as it appears the current hook is WP:SYNTH. — Amakuru (talk) 12:28, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Amakuru, I promoted the hook " ... that Mary Ann Wells, considered the most influential ballet teacher of the Pacific Northwest, mentored numerous talented dancers, including Gerald Arpino, who went on to co-found the Joffrey Ballet?", as can be seen from the diff I provided, not the hook that is currently in the queue. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:22, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- @AirshipJungleman29: I don't follow your comment here... you've said "I did not promote this hook" with a link that appears to show that you did indeed promote it?! — Amakuru (talk) 12:18, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Unrelated, but I was wondering why the next DYK set only has 6 hooks. SL93 (talk) 13:42, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- three had to be pulled on sourcing issues; i was experimenting with not replacing them, seeing if that leads to better results on accuracy. unfortunately, didn't push hard enough on this hook... theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 15:12, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if we should have an experiment like that without prior discussion. I see that I'm the only one who has brought it up so far, so maybe I'm in the wrong. SL93 (talk) 15:20, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Theleekycauldron: I think this is too controversial to be done boldly. I'm a bit too frazzled at the moment to do anything substantial in terms of reviewing, but some later hooks should be swapped in.--Launchballer 18:40, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- That's not something I could action before this queue goes live, because I'm very swamped today, but I'll keep that in mind. But honestly, if 4/9ths of the hooks in a set merit a pull, that means I'm looking at doing 13+ full reviews before a queue goes live. That's really a lot of work for each queue, and I don't know if it's productive. Maybe we say that there should be enough hooks to maintain MP balance, instead of requiring one-for-one replacement. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 18:49, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Theleekycauldron: I think this is too controversial to be done boldly. I'm a bit too frazzled at the moment to do anything substantial in terms of reviewing, but some later hooks should be swapped in.--Launchballer 18:40, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- You can't do that, Leeky. Wikipedia:Main Page/Tomorrow shows that the main page is unbalanced, with a serious amount of whitespace. Please promote some hooks into this set to restore balance. Schwede66 18:48, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Gah. I thought the balance would pan out a bit better; bad luck on the TFA and the setlength. I have a final exam today, though, so I don't think I really have the capacity to make any more promotions before the queue goes live. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 18:50, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- swapped in a bunch from queue 2, so now it should look okay. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 18:54, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Good. Thanks! Now turn Wikipedia off and concentrate on your exam. Others can sort out remaining issues. Schwede66 19:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Just as a point of order, I don't necessarily agree with the "you can't do that" comment, Schwede66... Yes, leaving the set with too few hooks is not a change in process that should be undertaken unilaterally by one editor, but on the other hand if Leaky really doesn't have the time to do the reviews for the new hooks swapped in, then firstly we can't force her to do that, and secondly it's certainly the lesser of two evils to just leave the remainder of the set unfilled rather than risk bringing in further hooks that might be problematic. Or you can even go back a year and pluck some hooks that already ran to fill the gaps... (this is what I do when a replacement is needed intraday, and I believe that's a process that exists). — Amakuru (talk) 19:22, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- I'll adjust the remain unbalance myself now. I agree that it's not Leeky's responsibility alone. Schwede66 19:28, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- There are currently eight hooks in that set, is this okay or should a ninth go in?--Launchballer 20:43, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- I'll adjust the remain unbalance myself now. I agree that it's not Leeky's responsibility alone. Schwede66 19:28, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Just as a point of order, I don't necessarily agree with the "you can't do that" comment, Schwede66... Yes, leaving the set with too few hooks is not a change in process that should be undertaken unilaterally by one editor, but on the other hand if Leaky really doesn't have the time to do the reviews for the new hooks swapped in, then firstly we can't force her to do that, and secondly it's certainly the lesser of two evils to just leave the remainder of the set unfilled rather than risk bringing in further hooks that might be problematic. Or you can even go back a year and pluck some hooks that already ran to fill the gaps... (this is what I do when a replacement is needed intraday, and I believe that's a process that exists). — Amakuru (talk) 19:22, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Good. Thanks! Now turn Wikipedia off and concentrate on your exam. Others can sort out remaining issues. Schwede66 19:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- swapped in a bunch from queue 2, so now it should look okay. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 18:54, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Gah. I thought the balance would pan out a bit better; bad luck on the TFA and the setlength. I have a final exam today, though, so I don't think I really have the capacity to make any more promotions before the queue goes live. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 18:50, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if we should have an experiment like that without prior discussion. I see that I'm the only one who has brought it up so far, so maybe I'm in the wrong. SL93 (talk) 15:20, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- three had to be pulled on sourcing issues; i was experimenting with not replacing them, seeing if that leads to better results on accuracy. unfortunately, didn't push hard enough on this hook... theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 15:12, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- i had the same issue, but thought i was being too picky/out of step :) for what it's worth, i don't think the proposed replacement is very interesting, not that the current hook makes much sense. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 15:09, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- It does have an interestingness problem. From a non-knowledgeable reader's perspective: "Dance teacher taught a dance student who went on to found a dance company." Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:16, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- I suggest to reopen it for a better hook. I feel like there has to be something, even if it isn't currently in the article. SL93 (talk) 15:19, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- pulled :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 18:54, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
Errors in "On this day"
Errors in the summary of the featured list
Errors in the summary of the featured picture
- 10 June - at "is a shock wave that, unlike a normal shock, is inclined" the two links are the same.
- Could perhaps pipe a link to "supersonic" ie Supersonic speed? JennyOz (talk) 15:00, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
- Duplicate link removed. I'm neutral on the supersonic link. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:04, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
Any other Main Page errors
Please report any such problems or suggestions for improvement at the General discussion section of Talk:Main Page.