Talk:Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present)

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On 26 October 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to October 2023 Israel–Lebanon border clashes. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

On 22 November 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from 2023 Israel–Lebanon border clashes to 2023 Israel–Lebanon border conflict. The result of the discussion was moved.

Post-move discussion

Now that it has been moved to "2023 Israel-Hezbollah conflict", we should probably remove conflict that doesn't strictly relate to Hezbollah, such as Israeli airstrikes on Iranian and Syrian military targets. Will we also limit this article to 2023, and not include any 2024 events? VR _talk 05:40, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"The IDF fired warning shots and used riot dispersal means at 18 people, including journalists and parliamentarians that crossed the border from Lebanon and walked 80 meters into Israeli territory.[42]" — as the cited article says, they walked into israeli-occupied disputed territory, not unambiguously israeli territory 130.180.88.101 (talk) 00:02, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request to 2023 Israel–Lebanon border conflict has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In the latest hezbollah infographic on November 23, they claimed 354 israel soldiers wounded/killed on the border. 185.118.220.5 (talk) 10:39, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. RetroCosmos (talk) 17:30, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request to 2023 Israel–Lebanon border conflict has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Per Hezbollah: 120 killed/wounded Should be 354 killed/wounded 185.118.220.5 (talk) 10:41, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Borgenland (talk) 17:34, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hezbollah confirmed launching 62 rockets towards an israeli air command center in mount meron.

Add that info and correct the mistakes made, also correct the fact that this is an initial response, as stated by Hezbollah.

The people who have rights to edit this article should 1rst and foremost look at Hezbollah's statements if they write about their operations, all info necessary will be found there. 80.220.74.143 (talk) 14:40, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add afwaj mokawama lobnaniya amal for the military units involved and the commander nabih berri since everyday includes a lot of rocket firing from them to israel Moudb (talk) 19:50, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think this should be removed because the claim is exaggerated. Any party can assert any amount of unattributed claims against their opponents. Ecrusized (talk) 19:47, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with editor @Genabab:'s comments here [5]. NBC is considered an RS. And as long as the claim is properly attributed to Hezbollah for the reader to understand there is no reason to remove it. EkoGraf (talk) 20:07, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't doubt the reliability of NBC News..... I doubt that Hezbollah is a reliable source. Ecrusized (talk) 21:06, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As Genabab said himself, it is most likely not true. However, we still include claims of all belligerents in a conflict for the sake of NPOV balance, presenting all sides POV. Like we have included over in the main Israel-Hamas conflict article the mention of Israel's claim they killed 1,000 militants in those first days within Israel, or like we include both Ukraine's and Russia's claims of their enemies losses over at the Russia-Ukraine war article (all figures that are more than likely inflated for the sake of propaganda), EkoGraf (talk) 21:26, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree that its probably not true, but deciding that, is not Wikipedia's job. Really, as long as NBC (a rs) is saying "Hezbollah claimed this" that's reason enough to include it. But only if we do say 'claimed by' Hezbollah. since other groups like the IDF are denying it. Genabab (talk) 20:09, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://mobile.mako.co.il/news-military/2024_q1/Article-963b7a378480d81026.htm?sCh=31750a2610f26110&pId=173113802 2.55.167.54 (talk) 17:20, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It has been proposed in this section that Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present) be renamed and moved to Israel–Hezbollah War (2023–present). A bot will list this discussion on requested moves' current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present) → Israel–Hezbollah War (2023–present) – If the 2,000 casualties per Hezbollah is true should this be moved to Israel–Hezbollah War (2023–present) because that would be enough deaths to be considered a war and I think we should discuss this. HuntersHistory (talk) 22:01, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose (for now) - If reliable sources start calling it a war, then we can change it, as per WP:COMMONNAME. At the moment, I haven't seen sources calling it a war. EkoGraf (talk) 23:46, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Not described as a war by RS. Ecrusized (talk) 15:50, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose current name meets WP:COMMON and is more WP:PRECISE than any alternative.  // Timothy :: talk  21:28, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support I respect the points raised, but I'd like to offer a different perspective. Even if some sources hesitate to use the term "war", the conflict's characteristics (casualties, sustained military engagement, regional implications) arguably align more closely with traditional definitions of war than a lower-intensity conflict. We should consider these tangible factors, in addition to labels, when assessing the conflict's nature. Media outlets, particularly in the West, can sometimes be slow to adopt terms like "war" due to legal and political sensitivities. This reluctance shouldn't prevent us from using the most accurate descriptor as the situation develops. While "conflict" is technically accurate, it risks downplaying the severity of the situation. "War", while carrying its own connotations, offers a more precise and informative title. Detsom (talk) 23:48, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So far, we have been unable to come up with an effective solution for where, in the casualties section, to place the two Hezbollah-linked dead search-and-rescuers. I, provisionally, put them apart from Hezbollah casualties, but they were then merged with the Hezbollah casualties. The issue is that RS do not merge these counts, making our total Hezbollah death count 2 higher than those in RS. Because of this, they were removed recently from the Hezbollah death toll, but are now simply absent entirely. This needs to be fixed, as the lack of these two deaths means that our conflict-total is off by two. What should be done about this issue? TheAwesomeAtom (talk) 19:42, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Search-and-rescuers are civilians, not combatants, and should be counted as civilians. EkoGraf (talk) 02:43, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aight, fair enough. TheAwesomeAtom (talk) 17:38, 29 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/bk5ryxqca 2A00:A041:1CE0:0:E139:30F8:BF3:D3FE (talk) 23:38, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

https://www.alnour.com.lb/news/ordinary/75020/%D9%81%D8%B6%D9%84-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%84%D9%87-%D9%86%D8%AA%D8%B9%D8%A7%D9%8A%D8%B4-%D9%85%D8%B9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%87%D9%88%D8%AF-%D9%88%D9%86%D8%B1%D9%81%D8%B6-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B8%D9%84%D9%85-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A5%D8%B3%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%A6%D9%8A%D9%84%D9%8A

See link above that contradicts the text in quotation currently present in this article, I quote Hezbollah not only opposes the government and policies of the State of Israel, but also each and every Jewish civilian who lives in Israel.

FadlAllah and other religious leaders have always stated that there is no animosity to jews , but that they oppose Zionism, you can read it in the link I've attached above, and you can find other examples. The manifesto mentioned in the wikipedia article and the personality being quoted, is not a media relation director as mentioned in link 36 . Also most of the links are not from Hezbollah or neutral sources, but sources who are in conflict with the movement, I would hence encourage links that are neutral, and if this is not available then at least add a counter link that can contradict the opposing link. Accusation such as Hezbollah or other movements oppose Jews in general are serious. You should take example on your Hezbollah article in the arabic language that has a whole section dedicated on how Hezbollah view jews see below https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%A3%D9%8A%D8%AF%D9%8A%D9%88%D9%84%D9%88%D8%AC%D9%8A%D8%A7_%D8%AD%D8%B2%D8%A8_%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%84%D9%87 Abysmalwinger (talk) 23:42, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: I've modified that line to specify the time frame, but I'm not clear on how the person in the source is related to Hezbollah, as it doesn't mention Hezbollah in the source. The Arabic Wikipedia article you linked to seems to be a translation of our article on the same topic at Ideology of Hezbollah. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 18:26, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]