Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. The main point of disagreement was whether to continue using the single year 2022 or to use a range. This largely depended on how editors interpreted "invasion". Some arguments in favor of a move away from "2022" to a range were that the invasion is still ongoing, or at least that the fighting is ongoing and that "Russian invasion of Ukraine" is often used for the war even if the initial invasion is over. Some arguments against a move were that 2022 means when the invasion started even if the invasion is ongoing, or that invasion means the initial offensive(s) even if the article also includes resulting events, or that additional detail in the title is unnecessary. Participants also discussed examples of other wars and invasions as arguments for consistency or at least precedent. Overall, the discussion did not produce a consensus.

The support side included the original proposal of 2022–2023 Russian invasion of Ukraine and XTheBedrockX's proposal Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022–present). Between these two, there was a general preference in favor of the "present" option, for being less likely to need updating, and for not implying that it ended in 2023 already or will necessarily end later in 2023. Some editors also considered putting the years at the end to interact better with search.

Other options were raised, but attracted relatively less attention in this particular discussion. These options included Russian invasion of Ukraine (the subject of a recent RM before this), or a reorganization of content to make the "2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine" article focus on the initial invasion and to split or merge content about later parts of the war to some other location (also discussed below in #Article scope should be reduced to the invasion). Thanks to all participants in this well-attended RM for the civil discussion. (non-admin closure) Adumbrativus (talk) 09:31, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine → 2022–2023 Russian invasion of Ukraine – It is now 2023 in Ukraine. The invasion is still ongoing, so this page should be moved to a descriptive title that reflects the new timespan. HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith (talk) 22:41, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE: Per WP:GS/RUSUKR Remedy A., this discussion is open only to extended-confirmed editors. Comments made by other editors will be removed. signed, Rosguill talk 02:57, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Speedy move. Later, we can discuss if "invasion" is the right noun. But the year is obvious. I'd have just moved this. Red Slash 23:08, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  While the prior discussion was closed for procedural reasons, it received near-unanimous opposition. I don't think speed is appropriate here at all, and honestly would have advised against opening this discussion in the first place, not out of any personal preference for a given outcome, but simply on the basis that such a proposal seems unlikely to gain consensus at this time. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 23:40, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support As per the reasons given by the proposer. Compusolus (talk) 00:02, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Meh. The title "2022..." can reasonably be interpreted to mean "invasion starting in 2022" regardless of whether it is ongoing or not. As such, the proposed target seems unnecessarily less concise. But it's hard for me to drum up much of a strong opinion on it if everyone else thinks adding the "-2023" is important. VQuakr (talk) 00:11, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Per the reasons given by the proposer. Support XTheBedRockX's idea As it gets rid of the issues with constantly updating the title every year and is consistent with articles like War in Afghanistan (2001–2021). BlueShirtz (talk) 00:30, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak oppose for now per VQuakr. I mean, if the invasion keeps going on, we can't change the year every year... stay at just 2022 for now. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contribs)} 01:07, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Why can't we change the year every year? ~Awilley (talk) 17:53, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support Per the reasons given by the proposer Support User:XTheBedrockX's title to move the duration to the end of the article in parentheses. --Pithon314 (talk) 02:54, 1 January 2023 (UTC), edited 2 January 2023[reply]
• Speedy Move just do it. Great Mercian (talk) 03:20, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. War articles on wikipedia tend to have the years on the title. I don't see why this one shouldnt. But the war could go on to 2024.`~HelpingWorld~` ^(👽🛸) 05:25, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose It's the War of 1812, not the War of 1812-1815. And the alternate universe thinking here with the titles broken to begin with. History is going to remember the "Russo-Ukrainian War" as starting in February 2022, 2014 being a lead up. Ironmatic1 (talk) 07:08, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  User:Luxtaythe2nd mentioned below that the War of 1812 is the common name for that war which already existed in the referenced sources. This article title doesn't originate that way, it has 2022 to specify when this event occurred. So leaving it as just 2022 makes it sound as if the invasion has ended. There are example of wars that have their titles with the whole year range too such as Russo-Turkish War (1877–1878) and Greco-Turkish War (1919–1922) which would both support User:XTheBedrockX's alternative title suggestion. --Pithon314 (talk) 20:51, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose It is the 2022 invasion. They invaded in 2022, not in 2023, which has barely begun, but during which it will be war. At least one ought to wait until the end of the entire conflict before deciding this. kbrose (talk) 07:16, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  To do that would be to wait until the middle of 2025, by then someone would've already moved it. why are we even having this debate? we should've moved this the second UTC hit 2023. Great Mercian (talk) 08:39, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• support, however may need an WP:RFC to discuss all related articles. Lemonaka (talk) 07:23, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Support a move, but to Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022–present) instead, if only because the “Russia” part is probably what most people search for rather than the “2022” part XTheBedrockX (talk) 08:08, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  This probably makes more sense than my original proposal, and like others have said, it's consistent with articles like War in Afghanistan (2001–present). I'm behind this too. HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith (talk) 06:32, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per VQuakr and Ironmatic1. HandsomeFella (talk) 09:19, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per others, this is both unnecessary and inaccurate It is the 2022 invasion. They invaded in 2022, not in 2023, … during which it will be war.. Suggestion creates a cumbersome title which is less rather than more precise. Pincrete (talk) 10:54, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose I would rather we just create a new page for 2023, so as to not have a huge 10000000 line article. Slatersteven (talk) 11:11, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  That doesn't make sense—the invasion is ongoing; there aren't two separate invasions in 2022 and 2023. Compusolus (talk) 13:16, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Yes it does, as this is a phase in the wider war. So we split up the phases, the actual Russian invasion, and now the more bogged-down continuation phase. Slatersteven (talk) 13:18, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I understand your reasoning, but it's going to look very strange to have a '2023 Russian invasion of Ukraine' article. Such an article would imply an interlude between two different actions, which isn't the case. The invasion has been bogged down since the first few weeks, such that most of this article already is 'the continuation phase'. Indeed, the article is divided into three phases: opening/Russian advance (February-April) ; invasion stalled (April-September) ; Ukraine counter-attacks (September-present). Mr rnddude (talk) 13:32, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  In the same was as we have ww2 Normandy landings American airborne landings in Normandy Mission Chicago (all part of the same campaign/war). We break down large subjects into smaller bites to make them easier to navigate (as indeed we had to with the timeline article about this invasion). Slatersteven (talk) 13:39, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  The issue I am pointing out is not that child articles do not exist. It is that '2023 Russian invasion of Ukraine' is a false title because Russia did not invade Ukraine in 2023, which the title implies. If you have an appropriate title, feel free to propose creating a new article. Mr rnddude (talk) 17:42, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  And the issue I am poi9itng out is that this article is a child of Russo-Ukrainian War, it is not a new war, and we should not be implying it is. Slatersteven (talk) 13:10, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. Since the invasion is still ongoing. Super Ψ Dro 12:02, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Support, As the invasion still ongoing. Cactinites (talk) 12:36, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose as per the norm like [[War of 1812] ]Moxy- 15:27, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  "War of 1812" is a name that was widely used before Wikipedia made an article about it. "2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine" is a name invented by Wikipedia to be explicitly descriptive and adding a "–2023" wouldn't break some sort of ancient tradition of war naming. Luxtay the IInd (^{talketh to me}) 17:40, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Google Scholar Moxy- 22:58, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  And? 8/10 sources on page 1 do not use the name '2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine' – more common is 'Russian invasion of Ukraine' – and the 2/10 that do both post-date the Wikipedia article (as does practically every paper published since the article was created hours after the invasion began). Same story on page 2-5. Indeed, using quotation marks around the title cuts down the number of hits from 32,000 to... 1,500.[6] It's a tiny minority that use the same title that we do. Mr rnddude (talk) 05:45, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support, significant fighting has continued into 2023. Support XTheBedRockX's idea Definitely a better idea to just do "2022–present" in order to not change the title every single year. Luxtay the IInd (^{talketh to me}) 17:36, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. The arguement from the standpoint of the name of the War of 1812 is fairly compelling. ErnestKrause (talk) 18:02, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  The War of 1812 has a common name, and it is titled that way. As far as I know, the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine does not. The first is a proper name and the second is descriptive. They're not comparable. This stance would imply that 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine is a proper name. WP:OR. Super Ψ Dro 12:17, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per arguments already given. Invasion began in 2022. Walrasiad (talk) 18:21, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Use XTheBedrockX's idea Originally, I was completely on board with a move, but the invasion occurred in February and March 2022, and is, in fact, being repelled, as we enter 2023. XTheBedrockX's idea was for Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022–present), which I think is a very good idea: we don't have to repeat this discussion on one of our most-viewed pages every year, and it does not mislead as much as 2023 Russian invasion of Ukraine, which was suggested above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Heavy Water (talk • contribs) 19:21, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  If we move to the original proposed name and the invasion is still ongoing in 2024 (I pray it won't), changing it from 2022–2023 to 2022–2024 will not be controversial and so there will not have to be an annual discussion. --Pithon314 (talk) 20:28, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose the 2022 refers to when it began and not the duration (also if we make it 2022-23 it will look like it's already over) LICA98 (talk) 20:23, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per many above the 2022 refers to when it began and not the duration (also if we make it 2022-23 it will look like it's already over).  // Timothy :: talk  20:49, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose 2022 refers to the event which can continue into another year. Can revisit in the future. Andre🚐 21:46, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose agree with above. The 'invasion' happened last year. The war is now happening that continues into 2023. We'll have to figure out when to stop the coverage of this article and the solution isn't to extend into the new year.Yeoutie (talk) 22:37, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose as per the reasons already given. Let the name change once it ends and we can figure out how RS' are calling it.LordLoko (talk) 00:57, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per example of War of 1812, which officially ended upon Congressional ratification of Ghent treaty in 1815. GoodDay (talk) 01:42, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Support XTheBedrockX's proposal, that is, Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022–present). As others have pointed out, "War of 1812" was an accepted title long before Wikipedia came about, and therefore the WP:COMMONNAME. In this case, with no definitely established name, our priority should be instant ease of recognisability and clarity. This article is about the ongoing war that started in 2022, so in my opinion it makes sense for the title to make it clear the scope goes beyond 2022, as we usually do with current events spanning multiple years. While I understand the argument of those who think the current title is fine (2022 being when the invasion occurred), I agree with those who think this could potentially cause confusion for readers, as this article covers ongoing fighting. "Russian invasion of Ukraine" is a widely used name for the current war, not just the initial invasion. Adding the date range at the end makes it obvious the article is about the war up to now, and that the invasion started in 2022. We can always change it again later if a better title develops. Jr8825 • Talk 04:18, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Additionally, I think it's worth again bringing up the unclear distinction between the scope of this article and Russo-Ukrainian War, as it relates to the issues we're hitting here. The "Russo-Ukrainian War" article is about the conflict/hostility between Ukraine and Russia since 2014, including and beyond the War in Donbas. The invasion article (this one) is currently set out so as to be about the escalation of the conflict between Russian and Ukraine into all-out war since 2022. This is indicated by the {{about}} template at the top of Russo-Ukrainian War, the fact that the date in the infobox is "to present", and the article structure following developments in the fighting up to now (beyond the initial invasion). One possibility is to rename the article "Russo-Ukrainian War" to "conflict", and have "War" redirect here instead, as many news sources refer to the current fighting interchangeably as "Russian invasion of Ukraine" / "Russia–Ukraine war". There was previously resistance to this suggestion as a number of pre-2022 academic sources referred to the (Donbas) fighting as the "Russo-Ukrainian War", but I personally think events have moved on. An alternative option is to move a summary of the fighting since the summer over to "Russo-Ukrainian War", and have that article become the main article for the ongoing war (narrowing this article's scope to the initial invasion), although that would require quite a lot more work to both pages and consensus for major change. Jr8825 • Talk 04:55, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support XTheBedrockX's idea of Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022–present). We've taken this approach elsewhere, e.g. War in Afghanistan (2001–present) or Iraqi Civil War (2014–present), which now redirect to War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) and War in Iraq (2013–2017) now that those conflicts are deemed over. I concur with the idea that "War of 1812" is well-established as the WP:COMMONNAME, which is not yet the case with this ongoing conflict. I also agree with Jr8825 that we ultimately need to address the scope of this article vs Russo-Ukrainian War and what title should apply to what level of coverage. ECTran71 (talk) 05:20, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Support for XTheBedrockX: Renaming the article to Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022–present) is a far better idea. It eliminates the whole issue of the dates (since it is an ongoing conflict, as was the case with War in Afghanistan (2001–2021), which had the date span filled out following the Western coalition's withdrawal in August 2021). Also, considering that it is an ongoing conflict and a globally well-known one at that, it just makes sense to keep the title itself simpler (i.e., Russian invasion of Ukraine), since the overwhelming majority of searches are going to be related to the ongoing invasion and not any previous conflicts between the two nations. ➤ Zᴇᴇx.ʀɪᴄᴇ ✪ (ᴛᴀʟᴋ) 05:55, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Support XTheBedrockX's idea of Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022-present) - The WP:COMMONNAME of this subject is undoubtedly 'Russian invasion of Ukraine' by a factor of ~10:1 (according to both Google Scholar and Search, and that is with filtering out leakage from the 2014 invasion). The year is present in the title only to disambiguate against that invasion. ECTran71 raises several precedents that support a change of title. The argument from 'War of 1812' is misplaced as that is a proper name for the war (akin to Second World War or Vietnam War) whereas '2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine' is not. Mr rnddude (talk) 05:57, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Support for "XTheBedrockX"'s idea of Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022-present). Compusolus (talk) 09:30, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Support for XTheBedrockX: Renaming the article to Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022–present) per above. Ythlev (talk) 10:17, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Support for the same change to “Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022 - present)”. Whilst I understand the argument that the initial invasion was in early 2022, the article does not simply cover the days of the invasion (there are separate articles that do). Instead it covers the invasion and subsequent war. A more accurate but excessively lengthy title would be “Russian invasion in Ukraine and subsequent war in Ukraine (2022 - present)” but I feel this is unnecessary long and descriptive. Regardless, given the article covers events occurring in 2022 and subsequent periods the title should make it clear that it not solely an article on events in 2022. For the reasons given above I’m not convinced by the “War of 1812” as this is a proper name, would be no different than having to call something the “x years war” as there is a war named “The Hundred Years War” Tracland (talk) 12:05, 2 January 2023 (UTC) Tracland (talk) 12:05, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• I mean if the conflict is still happening in 2023, then it should be renamed as such. Quake1234 (talk) 12:19, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• The year to this article was always kept because "Russian invasion of Ukraine" was considered ambiguous. See List of invasions and occupations of Ukraine. "Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022–present)" is going to cause precisely this problem on other articles. I ask what would we do with for example Women in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. Do we rename it to Women in the Russian invasion of Ukraine? Which Russian invasion does it refer to? What do we do with Prelude to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine? Prelude to the Russian invasion of Ukraine? Which Russian invasion, the 1918 one, the 1941 one, an earlier one? Or do you propose Prelude to the Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022–present)? Super Ψ Dro 12:30, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  The purpose of this discussion is this article. Whilst I appreciate there is crossover to other subsidiary articles that shouldn’t impact the appropriateness of the name of this article.
  On the prelude point, I don’t really understand your point. This clearly doesn’t need to be changed ‘prelude to the 2022’ clearly shows that it’s events occurring prior to a date in 2022 so the time period for this article is clear from its title.
  If the article for Women in the… covers multiple years then I agree with updating it. Tracland (talk) 13:05, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Fair enough on the prelude point. Super Ψ Dro 13:21, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - other Per the rational that follows, I would support in order: Russian invasion of Ukraine (per WP:COMMONNAME, WP:NATURAL, WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:TITLEDAB), Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022) (unnecessary disambiguation and less concise), then Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022-present) (unnecessary disambiguation, less concise, unnecessarily precise).
  As Mr rnddude evidences, The WP:COMMONNAME of this subject is undoubtedly 'Russian invasion of Ukraine' by a factor of ~10:1 ... This is also the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. At the recent RM, it was argued that there were other invasions but beyond that, there was nothing in the way of evidence and little (virtually no) reference to WP:P&G. IMHO (and quoting from WP:NHC, most arguments offered were irrelevant and flatly contradict established policy - specifically WP:TITLEDAB at WP:AT (a policy), to which WP:PRIMARYTOPIC (a guideline) specifically defers. WP:TITLEDAB states: ... [a] title may have other meanings, and therefore may have been already used for other articles. According to the above-mentioned precision criterion, when a more detailed title is necessary to distinguish an article topic from another, use only as much additional detail as necessary. The policy is based on there being an actual and not a perceived or potential conflict in article titles. There is no actual conflict between Russian invasion of Ukraine and any other Russian invasion of Ukraine. Furthermore, we are specifically told to use only as much additional detail as necessary. Because there is no actual conflict in titles, preceding with year in the title (eg 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine) flatly contradict[s] established policy. Looking at the two other events listed under the Russo-Ukrainian War and the long term results from before the 2022 invasion: Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation has about 2,000 page views per day;[7] and, War in Donbas has about 2,500.[8] WP:RECENTISM was raised during the RM (in that the recent [2022] invasion is overshadowing earlier events). After a year, average daily page views at this article are tending to flatten at somewhere between 40,000-50,000. At an order of magnitude greater than the sum of the other two relatively recent events. That is a lot of recentism to overcome. Of the invasions/occupations listed at List of invasions and occupations of Ukraine immediately post the Russian revolution, average daily page views are less than 40 (and typically much less). The existence of other invasions does not preclude one from being the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC - that is intrinsically the point of the guidance therein. Simple citing WP:RECENTISM does not ipso facto preclude a recent event from being the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Given the magnitude of global reaction and of direct global ramifications (particularly economic) that demonstratively far exceed the other events (even if this is a somewhat qualitative metric), I submit it would be difficult to argue that this invasion, as the primary topic, will not survive the WP:10YT.
  A year modifier ahead of a key phrase may be natural but is a poor title wrt WPs quick search function, which searches from the head of the search term - ie 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine is a poor title for this reason.
  Re HelpingWorld, many war articles don't actually have years in the title! VQuakr observers, The title "2022..." can reasonably be interpreted to mean "invasion starting in 2022" ... Ironmatic1 observes, It's the War of 1812, not the War of 1812-1815. The Indo-Pakistani War of 1947–1948 is commonly referred to in sources by only the start year (see searches [9][10][11]). While WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS (eg War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) and War in Iraq (2013–2017)), WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS only supports such a format if this represents best practice IAW WP:P&G. But year ranges appears to be a Wikiism contrary to common usage in sources and WP:P&G. Cinderella157 (talk) 13:00, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  If we can support “Russian Invasion of Ukraine” as primary topic then I think that’s best. If not and it needs disambiguation then I don’t like starting with “2022” as that’s clearly not the main search term or use. I’d prefer if using date in bracket as a disambiguation that it covers the period of time covered by the article (“2022 - present”). I don’t agree that this is being unnecessarily precise (unlike my previous comment which I thought was to precise), but gives the information needed and only that information. Tracland (talk) 13:12, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Since I've been mentioned - not pinged, just mentioned - there is something you state here that I do agree with. We don't actually require the date in the title. This is simply because not a single other invasion of Ukraine by the Russian Federation, the Soviet Union, or the Tsardom of Russia is known by the name 'Russian invasion of Ukraine'. Indeed, the 1918 invasion that Super Dro mentioned above goes by the rather convoluted name of Group of forces in battle with the counterrevolution in the South of Russia. Typical of the Soviet's style. There is not a physical disambiguation required. Usually, if there are years, it's because an event has happened before, e.g.: Battle of Antioch (218) versus Battle of Antioch (145 BC) versus Battle of Antioch (1097) (and even 1098) for one that has a collection of disambiguating dates. It is editor desire to have the date so as to ensure the reader is aware that this is not the first time that 'Russia' has invaded Ukraine. Most relevantly to us, 2014 annexation of Crimea.

  Other than that, I caution that you have mixed WP:OTHERSTUFF (an AfD related essay) for WP:OTHERCONTENT (same premise, but regarding article content). Mr rnddude (talk) 13:17, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Once the war ends, the recentism argument will appear less appropriate. I think it is also easier (in lack of a better word) to say a war that is not ongoing anymore has a common name. A move to Russian invasion of Ukraine might be worth visiting after the end of the war. I personally might vote support then. Super Ψ Dro 13:28, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  At the current rate, the war will never end. Great Mercian (talk) 14:38, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• As in the RM closed a day before this one opened, Oppose per O'Dea, and per others in this new one above. The invasion happened in 2022, and there is no issue with the article also discussing the resulting war. There may be a better title, but it is not the one proposed. CMD (talk) 13:11, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Russia invaded Ukraine in 2022, and Russian troops are still within Ukraine. Therefore, this escalated stage of the Russo-Ukrainian War, the invasion that started on 24 February 2022, is still taking place. Russia is still invading Ukraine in 2023. I understand this interpretation but I don't think it's the only true one. Can an objective argument be made when other editors may intepret this differently? Super Ψ Dro 13:21, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  That's not how the word invasion is generally used. See for example 2003 invasion of Iraq. CMD (talk) 15:52, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Not sure this is a fair comparison given the invasion in this case started and finished in 2003. Yes, there remained an occupying force afterwards but the invasion element had started and finished in 2003. In contrast Russia’s invasion is ongoing as they’ve neither captured Ukraine or fully retreated by 31 Dec 22 and are still attempting to invade. Tracland (talk) 17:52, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Not following this attempted distinction. Russia is still there, the US was still there. Invasions don't have to result in the subjugation or an entire country or a full retreat. CMD (talk) 04:30, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  To add on to your point, I think @Super Dromaeosaurus is confusing the 2003 invasion of Iraq with the Iraq War. The latter covers the entire extent of military operations in Iraq from the initial invasion to the withdrawal of troops in 2011. The former just describes the aforementioned initial invasion. Knightoftheswords281 (talk) 00:42, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I did not even mention Iraq in my comments. Super Ψ Dro 12:19, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• For Russia, this is moving into the direction of the permanent annexation of the 4 oblasts, with Putin taking the position that any peace talks must keep the question of the permanent annexation of the 4 oblasts as being off the table. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:20, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Dictionary primary definition of invasion:The act of invading, especially the entrance of an armed force into a territory to conquer. You can't enter anything interminably, once you are inside (the foreign territory) you HAVE entered, whether you have successfully conquered/subjugated/annexed or not. As others say, invasion is being confused with conquest or war.Pincrete (talk) 11:03, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment I know this isn't much helpful but I just wanted to note how, while this should be only a superficial change and shouldn't be hard to decide what to do, the problem with articles like this one, is that they are about things very recent and for obvious reasons we can't know how it will be known in future, even a near one. To make myself clear, what I mean is that we can't possibly known if this war will be known as the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine or the 2022-2023 Russian invasion of Ukraine or even something else entirely. I mean, who knows, maybe in a couple years this war will actually be known and called something like "East European Post-Soviet war" (I know it's a very improbable name, but it's just to show the problem). And because of this we can't actually know for now certainly how it will be actually known in history until some time passes, maybe even a little, but enough that an actual clear name is used commonly. It's true that the War of 1812 just uses the first year, but we can use it certainly because we now know that it's this the common name and not something like American-British North American war or the Great North American war or whatever for example and indeed we can't be sure that this war will be called this way with time, I mean, by using years or even the names of the different sides and Countries and so indeed something else entirely indeed; like for example the First Punic War isn't called something like 264 BC Roman invasion of Carthage neither the 264 BC-241 BC Roman invasion of Carthage. Now, again, I know this doesn't help much, but considering this, I'd only suggest what it's normal used on Wikipedia in such cases and so following the usual procedure and normal precedent for such cases, whatever it is, to change the title to cover all the years, or not, and then wait until a clear name will come out. Only, I don't know what's normally done in such cases. 84.220.201.133 (talk) 13:23, 2 January 2023 (UTC) Striking comment by non-ECP user. Not deleting because it was replied to. Cinderella157 (talk) 04:38, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I think the answer here is that if the common name subsequently changes then we change the article name at that time. We don’t have a crystal ball.
  The question is what is the most appropriate name for the article as at the current date, based on the common name currently being used. Tracland (talk) 13:38, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support – as it's 2023 and the invasion is still ongoing, the name makes sense. HOWEVER, I think Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022–present) could also work, as the other may imply that the invasion ends this year. DecafPotato (talk) 18:20, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Support for XTheBedrockX: per many other articles (e.g, War in Afghanistan (2001–2021), War in Donbas (2014–2022), War in Iraq (2013–2017)) Knightoftheswords281 (talk) 19:13, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. I think it should be renamed to Russian invasion of Ukraine (currently a redirect to this page). My very best wishes (talk) 21:47, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Support move to “Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022-2023)” or “Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022-present)”. Invasions can last multiple years, and article titles about invasions tend to reflect this. See for example Swedish invasion of Brandenburg (1674–75), Philippines campaign (1941–1942), or Philippines campaign (1944–1945). --Katangais (talk) 02:42, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Although the article is titled Swedish invasion of Brandenburg (1674–75), within the article text makes the distinction between invading (forcibly entering territory) and occupying (holding conquered territory). Pincrete (talk) 13:06, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment This discussion is in chaos and no longer has any value other than a timesink. It should be closed because as it stands nothing productive can come from it continuing.  // Timothy :: talk  11:12, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per WP:CONCISE. The invasion started in 2022, and that is all that is needed in the title for disambiguation. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:54, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per nom similar title with 2022–2023 Peruvian political protests - Jjpachano (talk) 05:14, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose - Neither Title Works Best

I don't think there's a solution on how to define the various events since 2014 which would satisfy everybody. It is true that at no point between 2014 and 2022 did hostilities cease along the Donbass frontline for more than a few days, and annual deaths never dropped below several hundred, so it would be silly to consider the Donbass conflict up to February 2022 as anything besides a singular war. However, the enormous intensification that began on February 24th has fundamentally altered the manner and locations in which the war has been fought, crimes against humanity far more numerous and killing or injuring far more people, the economic and societal effects of the conflict for Ukrainians and Russians, and in its effects on global diplomacy and geopolitics. With all of that in mind, it is not unreasonable to say that February 2022 marks the beginning of a war distinct from the intense violence of 2014-2015 and the intermediate 7 years of occasional skirmishes or artillery strikes.

The way I see it, several changes should be made, but changing the title to either "2022-23 Russian Invasion of Ukraine" or "Russian Invasion of Ukraine (2022-present)" is a highly counterproductive one. At present the article is far too cluttered and far too long, and its title is highly misleading as to its actual contents. Nobody considers the Battles of Ypres to be part of the 'German Invasion of Belgium in WW1', or the Battle of Fallujah to be part of the 'Coalition Invasion of Iraq'. 'Invasion' is almost universally a term reserved for the initial offensive made by the aggressor at war's outbreak, not a war as a whole. So the article concerning all events that happened after February 24th 2022 ought not include 'invasion' in the title.

The current article name must be limited in scope to cover events up to April 7th, and the ramifications thereof. Its other contents should be split off into new articles or integrated into already existing articles as appropriate. The 'Russo-Ukrainian War' page, not the '2022 Russian Invasion of Ukraine' page, ought to serve as the central article which encompasses the whole conflict. If we believe there needs to be a single page covering all events since February 24th, it may be titled "Russo-Ukrainian War since the 2022 Russian invasion"

Thereppy (talk) 07:07, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support a rename to any suitable title that reflects that the invasion continued into 2023. Zcbeaton (talk) 09:42, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose I think Cinderella157 pretty much said it all. The current title is not ideal, but is preferred to the proposed change. Historians will give a name to this war, but until then, WP:CRITERIA governs. The proposed title is not concise (adding a year range is not necessary for people to identify this article), nor consistent (with other naming conventions), natural or recognizable. What if the war continues till 2024, 2025, or 2026? Do we have to change the title every year? HollerithPunchCard (talk) 18:48, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Noted on your first point.

  On the second, I think (ignoring for now the title of this change thread) the general view from the comments is that, if there is to be a change to cover a range, then “2022 - present” is generally preferred to “2022-23”. Though this is only my view from a brief scan of the comments above and, of course, there is also the option of no change being made. Tracland (talk) 19:01, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Fair point, Tracland. I'm thinking that if we follow this line of reasoning, we will still have to rename the title at one point. Because there will come a point where the war ends, and then 2022 - present will have to be changed to 2022 - 20xx. As per WP:Recentism, there should be "an aim toward a long-term, historical view". A name along the lines of 2022-present feels more like a journal entry, than an encyclopedia. HollerithPunchCard (talk) 19:34, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  True enough. The more I read this thread the more I’m not sure there is an answer. I don’t think the current name is correct, I certainly don’t like it starting with “2022”, but all the alternatives proposed also have flaws. A “- present” does have certain precedent - for example “Afghanistan conflict (1978–present)” and “Ethiopian civil conflict (2018–present)” but is ultimately not the ideal solution for the reasons you rightly raise. Tracland (talk) 20:17, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  If one considers actual evidence and what the pertinent WP:P&G actually says, what is wrong with Russian invasion of Ukraine? Cinderella157 (talk) 01:21, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  There are about eight Russian invasions of Ukraine listed at List of invasions and occupations of Ukraine, and the redirect with that title is currently under discussion at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 January 3#Russian invasion of Ukraine.  —Michael Z. 01:48, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I agree, if this can be supported as the primary use of this title then I think “Russian invasion of Ukraine” is the natural title as it’s the common name used in most sources. My understanding was that previous consensus had been reached to disambiguate from other Russian invasions of Ukraine and hence the inclusion of the date. Tracland (talk) 07:21, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I can see there is a separate discussion on this from the previous comment above. Maybe something will come from that but probably needs to be agreed there first. Tracland (talk) 07:26, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Mzajac, as Mr rnddude states: We don't actually require the date in the title. This is simply because not a single other invasion of Ukraine by the Russian Federation, the Soviet Union, or the Tsardom of Russia is known by the name 'Russian invasion of Ukraine'. Arguments that other Russian invasions necessitate additional precision flatly contradict established policy (per WP:TITLEDAB, part of a policy document). Cinderella157 (talk) 09:47, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Cheers, Tracland. Agree with Cinderella157. It is not as if there are numerous "Russian invasion of Ukraine" titles such that we need a precise [yy to yy] marking on this title to distinguish it from others. As Tracland rightly point out, it's difficult to pinpoint an ideal title for this historic event right now, because the event itself is undergoing changes and flux. Many have raised that what has started as an invasion is turning, or has already turned into a war. The dust has yet to settle. My take is that until the dust settles, we try to minimize changes to the title, unless there is a clear compelling alternative, which at this moment, there is not. Fair? HollerithPunchCard (talk) 14:00, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Well it depends on consensus, doesn’t it. We agree on a lot of things that “we don’t actually require.” Russian invasion of Ukraine is not a formal title but a descriptive name, which can be applied to a number of events, and good sense could lead us to not make it the primary name for only one of them.  —Michael Z. 14:33, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Michael Z, I'm not actually proposing to change title of this article to "Russian invasion of Ukraine". I'm proposing to maintain the status quo, i.e to maintain the current title name - 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, which title already has a date. Unless a more compelling alternative arises, which can be justified by WP:P&G and WP:Criteria. HollerithPunchCard (talk) 14:53, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I think we have a potential issue with Naturalness and Consistency. The Natural title is “Russian Invasion of Ukraine” as this is the common name used in most sources (without the 2022) and is therefore the most likely search criteria (I believe someone posted a stat above). If a date is required for disambiguation purposes (which is itself debatable based on the above thread) then for Consistency, the general presentation of articles disambiguated by date is for the date to be in brackets at the end of the title (not as the first word of the search unless the most natural search would be by date (e.g. a sports season or an election, being events with regular patterns of recurrence)) Tracland (talk) 19:39, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support for XTheBedrockX's proposal: Renaming the article to Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022–present) seems more reasonable per the above. --Magnatyrannus (talk | contribs) 02:29, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. As @Thereppy: and several others pointed out, the current Russian invasion of Ukraine consists of the initial large-scale offensives by the attacking side. While the war—or the current phase of the war—has continued, it isn't convention to include dates other than the year in which the invasion began in WP titles. Lightspecs (talk) 06:53, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I’d fully agree if the articles coverage was only the initial large-scale offensives. But the article coverage includes the subsequent phase of the war. There’s a separate discussion below on splitting the article such that it only covers the initial large-scale offensives. If, following that discussions, it’s agreed to split such that this article only covers the initial large-scale invasion then I’d agree that the existing title is appropriate. Tracland (talk) 07:31, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Tracland, I think splitting along the lines you proposed is something we have to do sooner or later. Until then, finding an appropriate title is perhaps impossible. I'm afraid there's no word in the English language that can appropriately describe an invasion and a war at the same time. If you name this event as an invasion, you fail to capture its later evolution into a war. If you name this event as a war, you fail to capture its initial nature of being an invasion. HollerithPunchCard (talk) 14:03, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I agree entirely that there’s no suitable word (at least that I know of) to describe invasion followed by war. I’m not necessarily adverse to splitting the article, but this would need to be a separate discussion (one I believe has been started below and which I’ve not really considered the arguments for in detail). Tracland (talk) 19:31, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Support It's 2023 already and the war is continuing. We should rename the title. We're eight days late! Taiwanexplorer36051 (talk) 11:04, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The problem may be this is not a new war, the war started in 2014, and this is the article covering it Russo-Ukrainian War. If anything this is an evolution, with Russia entering an already ongoing war officially (rather than unofficially). Slatersteven (talk) 14:19, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support renaming to Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022–present), per XTheBedrockX and other supporters of this alternative. This is a more accurate title which does not restrict the invasion to 2022, and shows that the invasion is still ongoing. It also makes for more natural searching. 1857a (talk) 22:46, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support XTheBedrockX's idea as it gets rid of the annoying chore to constantly change the title of the article as the war drags on. I suppose we could do the same for the Mahsa Amini and Peruvian protests, but I say to wait it out on those. --WellThisIsTheReaper ^Grim 01:32, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose the renaming, as per War in Afghanistan (2001-2021), the second year refers to the end date. For formatting dates, it is explained in MOS:YEARRANGE. In this case, if the renaming were to occur, the end year of the invasion would be 2023. Due to this, I also Support XTheBedrockX's idea We do not know when the war will end, and we cannot make predictions based off guesses, as in WP:CRYSTALBALL. QuicksmartTortoise513 (talk) 04:48, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support XTheBedrockX's idea as 2023 is not necessarily the end date. PhilKnight (talk) 14:15, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support XTheBedrockX's idea. —Legoless (talk) 16:24, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support XTheBedrockX's idea Thelisteninghand (talk) 17:11, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support XTheBedrockX's open ended "Russian Invasion of Ukraine (2022-present)" title Galebazz (talk) 18:02, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Should we conduct a poll as to how many people are in favor or in opposition to the idea, or are in favor of the alternative, which is XTheBedrockX's idea. QuicksmartTortoise513 (talk) 19:30, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No. WP:VOTE. Discussions are decided on the basis of the merits of arguments, not by majority vote. Policies and guidelines should inform our conclusion, not the sheer number of opinions (in complete disregard of their merits) in favour of a particular option. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 00:31, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agree (No). WP:VOTE. Nederlandse Leeuw, I also agree that the article title should conform with applicable WP:P&G. How then, do we reconcile that the year in the present title is clearly contrary to WP:TITLEDAB (part of a policy document) - ... [a] title may have other meanings, and therefore may have been already used for other articles. According to the above-mentioned precision criterion, when a more detailed title is necessary to distinguish an article topic from another, use only as much additional detail as necessary. Cinderella157 (talk) 04:24, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed a vote is not the basis for establishing consensus in Wikipedia. Tracland (talk) 06:34, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Cinderella157: '2022' indicates when the current large-scale invasion began, not for how long it lasted, thus 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine is an enduring title that will always remain correct. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 11:10, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Nederlandse Leeuw:, the question was whether WP policy permits adding '2022' or not? Cinderella157 (talk) 11:33, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean, 'adding'? '2022' has been in the title ever since start of this article, it wasn't 'added' later. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 11:40, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Adding "2022" to the root phrase "Russian invasion of Ukraine". Does policy permit this in this case? Cinderella157 (talk) 23:52, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose The 15 December 2022 move request was already decided against any of the proposed alternatives. Nothing has changed. '2022' indicates when the current large-scale invasion began, not for how long it lasted, thus 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine is an enduring title that will always remain correct. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 00:24, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  The 15 December 2022 was a discussion as to whether to move to “Russian Invasion of Ukraine” and was closed as don’t move. From a quick flick though I can’t see that conversation actually reached a consensus on other proposals.

  Is one of the issues that “Russian Invasion of Ukraine (2022 - present)” has never actually been formally proposed as a name change. From a read of the above it appears this is the title that is most likely to get support if consensus is reached for a change. The topic of this discussion is not that specific title. Does it need to be brought up as a separate proposal or can it be discussed in the round in this conversation (noting the actual title of this conversation would appear, on the whole, to have been opposed as an inappropriate title).

  Genuine question as I’m not sure what the policy on these things are. Tracland (talk) 06:46, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Both the current proposal and XTheBedrockX's alternative have been explicitly discussed and rejected just a week before the current move was requested. To quote myself:

  "A. The most important point is that the current name 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine is actually fine. '2022' indicates when the current invasion began, thereby neatly distinguishing it from the far more limited military operations in Crimea and Donbas since 2014 (which technically are/were also "invasions"). Even if the current invasion doesn't end before 2022 is over (which it almost certainly won't, sadly), '2022' remains the correct starting year, and it's useful to keep that the same.

  (...)

  D. I am open to the alternative suggestions above that we can rename it 2022–2023 Russian invasion of Ukraine and change the second year every time it enters a new year before it ends, or Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022–present), but that makes things a bit messy, especially for linking to the article from other pages. Reason A is more compelling to keep the current title than the relatively small advantage that these alternative names would bring.

  So on the whole, keeping the current name is best. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:49, 21 December 2022 (UTC)"[reply]

  Nothing has changed just because we have now entered a new year, because the identical proposals of the previous discussion took this into account. There is no need to redo the discussion that has been had already. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 11:28, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Absolutely fair comments, I wasn't personally involved in the previous discussion and only became aware of the proposed change once this discussion had been created. Whilst by view is a preference to change the title I can understand why there is frustration in rehashing arguments already made if the points have all recently been considered.

  My personal view would be for a change of name (as I think the alternative with (2023 - present) at the end is a more accurate reflection of the article contents) but if there is established consensus otherwise then I agree the overall consensus that has been established should be followed. Tracland (talk) 12:53, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Thanks for your response. To be clear, any frustration you might read in my previous comment wasn't directed at you. Your question is a relevant one and I was happy to answer it. :) Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:55, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Thanks, but there is a fair point that I should probably have looked back at previous discussions before assuming this was the first discussion on the point. Tracland (talk) 15:19, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Oh well, now you know. ;) Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:01, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Thanks Tracland (talk) 00:23, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose WP:CRYSTAL the war will end in 2023. Ribbet32 (talk) 00:59, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Sorry, can you expand? Are you saying that the proposed title would violate WP:Crystal as would imply the invasion finished in 2023? Tracland (talk) 06:48, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I tend to agree with this argument. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 02:47, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I think Ribbet32 is saying that by including the year '2023' as the last year, it implies the war will end (or has ended, quod non) in 2023, which is something we do not know, therefore in violation of WP:CRYSTAL. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 10:26, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Ok, thanks for the clarification, I agree that any inclusion of “-2023” could result in the article being perceived as ending in 2023 and, largely for this reason, don’t support a “-2023 title” (I’d much prefer “-present”, on which view are expressed elsewhere in this chat). Thanks for clarifying. Tracland (talk) 13:04, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong oppose. "2022-2023" just makes the title way wordier than it needs to be, and as has already been mentioned above, the invasion started in 2022. I think that in the long term, most of the content on this conflict will be under Russo-Ukrainian War, and this article will be related to that article the same way Invasion of Poland is related to World War II. Mover of molehills^{move me} 02:10, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Noted on the first point regarding the wordiness of the original proposal made.

  I appreciate the long term view and, if and when, the significant editing to achieve this is agreed and done then I agree with you. However, as it currently stands the events from 2022 onwards only make up c.5% of the Russo-Ukrainian War article. Predicting the future is hard and the article needs to reflect its current use even if this might subsequently change. Tracland (talk) 06:56, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support XTheBedrockX's idea as it removes the need to consistently update the title should the subject drag on for longer. TimTheDragonRider (talk) 15:02, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. If we are going to use the word "invasion", it's the 2022 invasion, because that's when the invasion was. If we want a broader title then it's "2022-2023 special military operation" or whatever. In either case, the proposed alternative doesn't work. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:52, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak support for XTheBedrockX's proposal as it seems the most reasonable title, but the current title is acceptable. In any case, I oppose the original proposal. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 02:59, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose I seriously doubt that such a move will make the article easier to find. People searching are most likely to simply search "Russian Invasion of Ukraine" which will return either article equally well. And if not for access, why change it? A change like this will necessitate changing the title on a yearly basis. When the invasion is effectively over, I could support a change to "Russian Invasion of Ukraine (2022-end-year)" but until then I don't see a particular benefit for the move. It can't really be claimed that the is more accurate, as the argument of whether to title by start or time span is semantic. --Lenny Marks (talk) 09:04, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Hi Lenny Marks, given your comment and the policy link WP:TITLEDAB, which tells us not to use unnecessary precision (ie 2022 in the title), do you have a view on the present title with respect to that policy? Cinderella157 (talk) 10:03, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Hi @Cinderella157.

  From what I understood (and correct me if I'm wrong), you're asking if WP:TITLEDAB instructs us to remove 2022 from the title, leaving "Russian Invasion of Ukraine," as 2022 is unnecessarily imprecise. As I read it, WP:TITLEDAB is suggesting that the least amount of extra text necessary to distinguish an article topic be used. More specifically:

  As a general rule, when a topic's preferred title can also refer to other topics covered in Wikipedia:

  1. If the article is about the primary topic to which the ambiguous name refers, then that name can be its title without modification, provided it follows all other applicable policies.
  2. If the article is not about the primary topic for the ambiguous name, the title must be disambiguated.

Personally, I believe that "Russian Invasion of Ukraine" is ambiguous because it may be confused with the Russo-Ukrainian War at large, and it is of unclear primacy. I therefore do not believe it satisfies part one, and we must disambiguate per part two. I suppose that the current title could be revised, however, from "2022 Russian Invasion of Ukraine" to "Russian Invasion of Ukraine (2022)," but this seems semantic. In any case, that's how I read the policy there.
-- Lenny Marks (talk) 18:08, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

To read WP:TITLEDAB more fully: ... [a] title may have other meanings, and therefore may have been already used for other articles. According to the above-mentioned precision criterion, when a more detailed title is necessary to distinguish an article topic from another, use only as much additional detail as necessary. It deals with actual conflicts in title names, not perceived conflicts. Having "2022" in the title appears to be unnecessary precision. I was asking because of your observation: People searching are most likely to simply search "Russian Invasion of Ukraine" ... Cinderella157 (talk) 00:02, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose Move to Russian invasion of Ukraine since it already redirects to the page and is a more search-friendly name, with the current note about previous invasions at the top of the page modified to reflect this change. D4R1U5 (talk) 09:26, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose We should wait until the invasion is over and then move it when we find out what reliable sources call it. Also when the invasion ends nobody will think of the Russo-Ukrainian War as starting in 2014 they will think of the part starting in 2022. So perhaps we would name this article "Russo-Ukrainian War" and the 2014-15 article something else and then the protracted frozen conflict article from 2015-2022 something else as well. PilotSheng (talk) 16:19, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose Titling it with a date range suggests it is over (that it ended in 2023). It should either stay at the current title or be moved to 2022–present Russian invasion of Ukraine. 25stargeneral (talk) 03:47, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]