Talk:Prayagraj: Difference between revisions

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Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

This article is written in Indian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, analysed, defence) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

	Prayagraj has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones Date Process Result August 5, 2012 Peer review Reviewed January 16, 2013 Good article nominee Not listed February 17, 2014 Good article nominee Not listed August 20, 2014 Good article nominee Listed Current status: Good article

This article is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Hinduism GA‑class High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Hinduism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Hinduism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HinduismWikipedia:WikiProject HinduismTemplate:WikiProject HinduismHinduism articles GA This article has been rated as GA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. India: Cities / Uttar Pradesh GA‑class High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject India, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of India-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.IndiaWikipedia:WikiProject IndiaTemplate:WikiProject IndiaIndia articles GA This article has been rated as GA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject Indian cities (assessed as Top-importance). This article is supported by WikiProject Uttar Pradesh (assessed as Top-importance). Cities GA‑class This article is within the scope of WikiProject Cities, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of cities, towns and various other settlements on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CitiesWikipedia:WikiProject CitiesTemplate:WikiProject CitiesWikiProject Cities articles GA This article has been rated as GA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.

The contents of the Allahabad Smart City Project page were merged into Prayagraj on 3 January 2018. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page.

This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Discussions: RM, Allahabad → Prayagraj, consensus not to move, 10 August 2020 RM, Allahabad → Prayagraj, NOT MOVED, 20 September 2021. An RfC immediately after the move request concluded that no further move requests should be made before 4 April 2023.

This is saddening. This is not the ethics of Wikipedia.

And there is no information on it. If so please explain 202.164.139.16 (talk) 12:28, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus is exactly "the ethics of Wikipedia" and the consensus is that the change can be discussed on/after 4 April 2023.
As for "there is no information on it" please read the archives which record the multiple, and very long, discussions previously held. - Arjayay (talk) 12:35, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why is it moved until 2023. I read it months ago. What is the reason, explain here 202.164.139.16 (talk) 12:43, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

my memory is right. I read it months ago and the discussion wasn't lengthy and there is no reason there ! None !

If so, please reply the reason 202.164.139.16 (talk) 12:45, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Here Dāsānudāsa (talk) 13:09, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also see discussions on the archives Talk:Allahabad/Archive_4, Talk:Allahabad/Archive 3, Talk:Allahabad/Archive 2. Ravensfire (talk) 17:07, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

thank you 👍👍✌️🥰 202.164.139.16 (talk) 20:49, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

thank you 202.164.139.16 (talk) 20:48, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Name change

Change the to Prayagraj.period 184.88.244.244 (talk) 13:02, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As stated above "An RfC .... concluded that no further move requests should be made before 4 April 2023". Please come back then. - Arjayay (talk) 13:10, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It’s past Apr 4 2023 and after reading yet another news article about Prayagraj, I came back here to see exactly what I expected. I went through the discussion and have yet to see one opposer of the move quantify what it means for “commonly used English name”. Though by any reasonable metric it would seem that Prayagraj usage outweighs Allahabad. Do better Wikipedia! 2600:1700:65A0:D2C0:8556:D666:2968:456F (talk) 14:34, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why name will not be changed till April 2023

Please tell the reason 103.208.69.8 (talk) 07:44, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Because when a change of the article name was discussed in August 2020, the balance of evidence was that Allahabad was the commonly-used English-language name (see Talk:Allahabad/Archive 2#Requested move 10 August 2020). This had also been the case in previous discussions. The move discussion in August 2020 also agreed that there should be a one-year moratorium on future move requests. This moratorium worked really well.

There was another change of the article name discussion in September-October 2021, which showed that the balance of evidence was that Allahabad remained the commonly-used English-language name (see Talk:Allahabad/Archive 3#Requested move 20 September 2021). Since the previous moratorium worked so well, it was agreed to have another moratorium until April 2023 (see Talk:Allahabad/Archive 3#Propose an 18-month moratorium on move discussions for this page).

It is pointless endlessly discussing the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over again. It is much better to revisit issues after there has been time for new evidence to accumulate.-- Toddy1 (talk) 08:22, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Toddy1 So according to your logic, Internet came 20 years ago and things started then. So Prayagraj should surpass the count of its word which can take 10 years. What a logic.! When the officially it's Prayagraj since almost 5 years i think. Rahil1610 (talk) 18:25, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

name change from allahabad to Prayagraj

Allahabad can be redirect to this page. it's available. Because Prayagraj is official name since last 5 years. name must be change to Prayagraj. Rahil1610 (talk) 18:31, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done - We use the Common names in English for our articles, not the "Official names", as changing the name breaks internal links to those articles, and is confusing to our readers: Bangalore was renamed Bengalūru, as the city's official name in 2006, but we still use Bangalore.
As a longer standing example, Wien has been the official name of the capital of Österreich (another official name) for hundreds of years, but we won't be changing either name in the foreseeable future - Arjayay (talk) 19:32, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

But then what about kiev? The name has been changed to Kyiv. As per Common name guidelines of Wikipedia, Kiev has been used for half a decade. 49.36.177.161 (talk) 12:45, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• More than half a century.

49.36.177.161 (talk) 12:45, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

When will the next discussion for consensus take place?

When I am right, it is about time.

When will it take place?

--Tecumseh*1301 (talk) Tecumseh*1301 (talk) 14:11, 1 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus about what? - Roxy the dog 14:14, 1 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is now a pretty clear consensus across all the various kinds of sources that they are now using Prayagraj as the name for the city that is the subject of the article. As per Wikipedia's policy on commonly used names, the sources that should be refered to are major international organizations, major English-language media outlets, quality encyclopedias, geographic name servers, major scientific bodies, and notable scientific journals.

Major International Organizations: Somewhat complicated, given that major organizations relatively rarely refer to the name of a city. Nonetheless, since the name change, the United Nations, the World Bank, UNESCOthe World Health Organization, and European Union have used Prayagraj in their reports or their datasets to refer to the city. That said, this is probably the most debatable category.

Major English-Language Media outlets: They have almost universally started using Prayagraj, regardless of whether they are based in the United States such as Reuters, New York Times, or Washington Post, the UK such as BBC or the Guardian, or in India such as the Indian Express or NDTV.

Quality Encyclopedia: Britannica Uses Prayagraj.

Geographic Name Servers: Google Maps, Bing Maps, and Apple Maps all use Prayagraj.

Major Science Bodies and Journals: Checking citations for Prayagraj vs Allahabad is complicated, because Allahabad is used as a name for a lot of things besides the city that is the subject of the article, such as other locations called Allahabad, a district court, a military hospital, a fort, a pillar, a kind of plant, and importantly multiple universites have Allahabad in their name. However, we can easily check which is more the common representation for the city that is the subject of this article by searching for "Prayagraj, Uttar Pradesh" vs "Allahabad,Uttar Pradesh". Since 2022, Prayagraj is far more common, with 1800 results for Prayagraj, Uttar Pradesh vs only 694 for Allahabad, Uttar Pradesh, which is pretty clear evidence that Prayagraj has become the common name in the scientific literature as well.

Waiting to change the name until the sources changes made sense, but now that they have, Wikipedia is going to seem ridiculously out of teach if we keep using the old name that is no longer the most commonly used one. 2601:1C0:6C00:2430:A510:5602:24D8:4F87 (talk) 00:53, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should continue to use the WP:COMMONNAME. The name is right there in the first sentence of the article anyway. - Roxy the dog 06:37, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Am I missing something? WP:COMMONNAME is where I read in determining the common name "it is useful to observe the usage of major international organizations, major English-language media outlets, quality encyclopedias, geographic name servers, major scientific bodies, and notable scientific journals", so I checked if those sources had switched to the new name. How else do we determine the common name except by checking the reliable sources? I'm a wikipedia newbie, so it is possible I missed something in the policy but I don't see it. It's not that we should take into account older sources, because WP:NAMECHANGES explicitly states "we give extra weight to independent, reliable English-language sources ("reliable sources") written after the name change". 2601:1C0:6C00:2430:A510:5602:24D8:4F87 (talk) 07:14, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You are missing various things. For example, you chose a Google Scholar search that happened to give the result you wanted. Here are some more. The only one that shows Prayagraj as more common was the one you mentioned; but the others are just as valid.

Google Scholar search results, since 2022
Scholar search term	Allahabad	Prayagraj
"Allahabad" "Prayagraj"	10,900	5,760
"Allahabad, Uttar Pradesh" "Prayagraj, Uttar Pradesh"	694	1,800
"Allahabad, India" "Prayagraj, India"	2,400	1,700
"Allahabad, Region" "Prayagraj, Region"	63	50
"Allahabad city" "Prayagraj city"	200	171
"Allahabad division" "Prayagraj division"	11	4
"Allahabad district" "Prayagraj district"	255	198

-- Toddy1 (talk) 08:49, 4 April 2023 (UTC) rows for division and district added 10:42 (UTC)[reply]

That's because searches for Allahabad, India and just Allahabad include sources include references to things with Allahabad in their name that are not the city that is the subject of this article. For Example, on the top page for Allahabad, India you include the paper "An efficient tasks scheduling algorithm for batch processing heterogeneous cloud environment" which comes up because the authors are located at according to the paper Motilal Nehru National Institute of Technology Allahabad, Prayagraj, 211004, Uttar Pradesh, India. Allahabad is part of the institute name, but the paper is calling the city that is of the subject of the article Prayagraj. Allahabad division and Allahahbad district refer to the district which is a separate article.

Region, City are better since they are usually clear references to the subject of the article, but adding up clear references to Allahahbad vs Prayagraj in "Uttar Pradesh", "City", and "Region", Prayagraj is still way more common.

And scientific results are just one of the categories of sources that we are supposed to consider according to the policy on Common Names. The biggest names like Reuters and Britannica have made the switch, which also should be given weight. 2601:1C0:6C00:2430:8454:CD65:F52C:9225 (talk) 14:38, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to exclude the other name in searches, you have to do it for both sides:

Google Scholar search results, since 2022
Scholar search term	Allahabad	Prayagraj
"Allahabad" -Prayagraj "Prayagraj" -Allahabad	8,350	2,880
"Allahabad, Uttar Pradesh" -Prayagraj "Prayagraj, Uttar Pradesh" -Allahabad	541	1,080
"Allahabad, India" -Prayagraj "Prayagraj, India" -Allahabad	2,160	622
"Allahabad, Region" -Prayagraj "Prayagraj, Region" -Allahabad	60	18
"Allahabad city" -Prayagraj "Prayagraj city" -Allahabad	155	124
"Allahabad division" -Prayagraj "Prayagraj division" -Allahabad	10	2
"Allahabad district" -Prayagraj "Prayagraj district" -Allahabad	208	75

-- Toddy1 (talk) 14:52, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think you may have misunderstood me. I don't want to exclude the other name. What would that do? I want to exclude references to things that have Allahabad in their name that are not the subject of this article. 2601:1C0:6C00:2430:8454:CD65:F52C:9225 (talk) 14:57, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

They have Allahabad in their name because it is the common name for this city.-- Toddy1 (talk) 15:05, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NAMECHANGES doesn't include anything about other organizations that had the old name as part of their name renaming themselves. We are supposed to be using reliable sources to determine whether they use the new name is used to refer to the subject of the article, which they do.

Going into whether institutes not changing their name reflects the common name of the city or a desire not to change the name of their institutes means looking to hearts of people, which I do think we as an online encyclopedia are in a position to do. WP:Verifiability, not Truth. 2601:1C0:6C00:2430:8454:CD65:F52C:9225 (talk) 15:27, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• do not think

2601:1C0:6C00:2430:8454:CD65:F52C:9225 (talk) 15:27, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Just removing Prayagraj from Allahabad search is not enough. There has to be multiple other exclusions like "Allahabad" -Prayagraj -"Allahabad Safeda" -"Allahabad University" -"University of Allahabad" -"MNNIT Allahabad" -"Allahabad High Court" -"Allahabad Bank" -"Allahabad Agricultural Institute" -"Motilal Nehru National Institute of Technology Allahabad" to name a few. With these exclusions the search count reduced to 6410 which is still not accurate. There are many citations of old articles/books containing word Allahabad and that also needs to be excluded. IIIT Allahabad also needs to be excluded which has 400+ pages. This reduces count to close to 5000. I am not able to add all these exclusions in single query on google webpage and I am not aware if there are any other ways to do it. This alone brings it to quite comparable counts approx 5000 for Allahabad and approx 2900 for Prayagraj. I am sure there will be multiple other instances which need exclusion like "Sam Higginbottom University of Agriculture, Technology and Sciences, Allahabad,". If I add similar exclusions for complete internet search, the count of Allahabad city specific search reduces by 40% (approx 9600 million lifetime pages). We can't really have similar exclusions from Prayagraj search (approx 5600 million lifetime pages) criteria.

Though I support article name change, but at the same time I find it almost impossible that we could come to an agreement purely basis google search result. RohitSaxena (talk) 04:30, 5 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I would like the 259 requests and comments over the course of almost 3 years pro a namechange to Prayagraj to be included in the discussion. I think, Wikipedia users should have a say as well.

And I would ask you this time, please don't rush the discussion like the last 2 times, which was very sus. Let everybody have a little time to get information and statistics on the topic or to prove them at least. --Tecumseh*1301 (talk) 16:39, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a newbie so I'm not sure what you are referring to happening the last couple times, but sure I'm happy to wait a bit for everyone to weigh in before starting a request for a move! 2601:1C0:6C00:2430:8454:CD65:F52C:9225 (talk) 17:02, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Change the name of Allahabad to Prayagraj

The city's name is Prayagraj not Allahabad,it was the original name of the city which was changed in Mughal period.The Government of Uttar Pradesh has reverted the name of the city to its original name, so you are misleading people by not allowing to change the name to Prayagraj.The official name is Prayagraj and if you don't allow to change it to its original name, it might result in mass outrage TheruralGuy (talk) 13:26, 12 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Read sections above. — kashmīrī ^TALK 13:59, 12 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Move page name to Prayagraj

It has been around 5 years since the name of the city has been officially changed from Allahabad to Prayagraj. Most billboards, signboards have the new name on them. Events taking place in the city also use the name Prayagraj. Most articles on the web, news reports, Google Maps are now using the name Prayagraj instead of Allahabad. It is also evident that people of the city use the name Prayagraj in day to day conversation while referring to the city. This indicates that Prayagraj has also become a commonly used English Language name. TheOneRiding (talk) 16:25, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Read sections above, and WP:COMMONNAME - Roxy the dog 17:47, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think people are disagreeing on whether we use should use WP:COMMONNAME, just on what the common name is. It might be easier to reach agreement if we would all share our sources. For example, what are some news sources that wikipedia views as generally reliable that exclusively use Allahabad these days. Then we can compare against the ones that use Prayagraj and then possibly agree on which to weigh more? That might be naive, but there is no way we are going to reach consensus without it. 2601:1C0:6C00:2430:816B:6F0:AE19:E05C (talk) 00:28, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Read the sections above.-- Toddy1 (talk) 07:10, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So the argument that Allahabad is the common name boils down to institutions that have Allahabad in their name have not renamed themselves, and that should override all the other categories of sources that WP:COMMONNAME says we should consider like reliable media sources? I'll accept it, but I'll need a link to a Wikipedia policy that says we should consider institutions own names as an indicator of the common name of a place. After all, it's not like we care that it's still IIT Madras or Madras High Court, as long as the sources refer to the city itself as Chennai. 2601:1C0:6C00:2430:65BB:48C8:E0E1:4389 (talk) 18:29, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If you need sources, here's an argument from another user.

Major International Organizations: Somewhat complicated, given that major organizations relatively rarely refer to the name of a city. Nonetheless, since the name change, the United Nations, the World Bank, UNESCOthe World Health Organization, and European Union have used Prayagraj in their reports or their datasets to refer to the city. That said, this is probably the most debatable category.

Major English-Language Media outlets: They have almost universally started using Prayagraj, regardless of whether they are based in the United States such as Reuters, New York Times, or Washington Post, the UK such as BBC or the Guardian, or in India such as the Indian Express or NDTV.

Quality Encyclopedia: Britannica Uses Prayagraj.

Geographic Name Servers: Google Maps, Bing Maps, and Apple Maps all use Prayagraj. TheOneRiding (talk) 09:36, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, he/she agrees with himself. It was from the same user.-- Toddy1 (talk) 12:33, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with your assesment. The article's name should be changed to Prayagraj as it's the predominant name being used in the media and also the official name.Paleothorn (talk) 07:54, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure someone has posted this already but here's the Google Ngram for both names. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 11:32, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As the name of this page has been moved to Prayagraj, so now the names of the pages like Allahabad Division and Allahabad District be also changed to Prayagraj Division and Prayagraj District respectively. In addition names of the other "OFFICIALY RENAMED" institutions located in Prayagraj should also be changed. TheOneRiding (talk) 08:27, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That appears a natural consequence of this rename here. I'll leave it to others to do it, though. — kashmīrī ^TALK 08:56, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I would support the renaming of Allahabad division and Allahabad district but we need to be very careful about renaming other articles. For example Allahabad High Court is still officially the High Court of Judicature at Allahabad, so should not be renamed. - Arjayay (talk) 09:20, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

=== Rename Allahabad district and Allahabad division ===

Prayagraj is the common and official name of this city. Prayagraj district and Prayagraj division is also common names. I guess you should change the name of Allahabad division and Allahabad district as Prayagraj division and Prayagraj district. Bikapur (talk) 10:04, 28 April 2023 (UTC) Tousif ❯❯❯ Talk 10:54, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]