Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2018 November 26

Joseph Forbes (educator) – Speedy deletion overturned. Sandstein 17:33, 5 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.

After a deletion nomination, the page was restored to a draft which I edited. The new draft was approved by an editor who has since been blocked. Afterwards, the page was speedily deleted under G4. The page has more sources compared to its original deletion discussion. During the time the page was speedily deleted, I made a DYK nomination for it, and there is also some discussion at its DYK nomination. The admin who speedily deleted the page has restored it to two drafts, the one I edited and linked above, and one from before I started editing. I believe the subject is notable and that the page should exist. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 17:16, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The two new sources (clipping, BYU article) seem enough to overcome a G4. So overturn speedy and someone can list at AfD again if they wish. I'll !vote to keep based on the three solid sources we have (the book appears to be published by a reputable publisher at the time, if I'm wrong and that is a vanity press the case is weaker). Hobit (talk) 17:58, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It looks to me like the page is now at User:Thmazing/Joseph Forbes (educator). --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:18, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

09:58, 15 November 2018 Shirt58 (talk · contribs) deleted page Joseph Forbes (educator) (G4: Recreation of a page that was deleted per a deletion discussion (CSDH))

User:Shirt58, where is the deletion discussion? Why do G4 deletion logs not link to the deletion discussion? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:21, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion is at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Joseph Barlow Forbes. Found it via the history at the "before I started editing" link. Hobit (talk) 00:13, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi all. Thank you Hobit (talk · contribs) for identifying the deletion discussion. I have slightly refactored your edit to show the link in standard formatting.

As already mentioned, the text of the first version of the article deleted as a result of that AfD is now here - User:Thmazing/Joseph Forbes (educator)
The text of WP:G4'd second version of the article is now here - User:Thmazing/Joseph Barlow Forbes

As for now visible the second version, it was a short article that basically reiterated the assertions in the first version, without reliable third party references and with the addition of references sourced from this writer.

OK, we've identified the problems. Now let's look for solutions. Pete AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 11:28, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You're describing it backwards. I edited this version, which you stated was the second version but was actually the first. That version was deleted after a deletion discussion and restored to a draft. After I editing the page to this version, the page was speedily deleted. I think User:Shirt58 made them two different pages when he restored them to differentiate the versions? Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 17:38, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t think the draft overcomes the reasons for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Joseph Barlow Forbes. With all sources seeming to be from grandchildren, JBF lacks independent coverage. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:49, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi SmokeyJoe, I found a news article about one of the high schools named after him, an entry in a biographical collection about Mormon pioneers, and mention in an academic article about Mormons in the civil war--none of which were authored by his grandchildren. They are cited on the draft I edited. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 17:33, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Overturn speedy The recereated version was not substantially identical to the deleted version per G4 criteria. No current opinion about how I might !vote at a hypothetical AfD Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 17:51, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn with the rationale just given by Barkeep49. DGG ( talk ) 19:25, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
My brain hurts. We seem to have *four* distinct copies of this, with overlapping timelines, but distinct histories:
- Joseph Forbes (educator) (currently a redlink)
- Joseph Barlow Forbes (currently a redlink)
- User:Thmazing/Joseph Forbes (educator)
- User:User:Thmazing/Joseph Forbes (educator) (currently a redlink with an invalid namespace)

At this point, I'm not even sure what's being requested. I think what the nom wants is for User:Thmazing/Joseph Forbes (educator) to be moved back to mainspace. Is that correct?

And, please people, don't make multiple copies of the same page. Leaving aside any issues of proper attribution, it makes it really difficult to sort out the history. -- RoySmith (talk) 20:20, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that's correct. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 21:15, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Overturn. If I've unraveled all the uber-complex history, we're talking about:

WP:G4 says, sufficiently identical copies. The two versions are clearly not completely identical, so the question is whether they're sufficiently identical. There's been some textual changes, but the overall text is mostly the same. More importantly, there have been some added sources. Personally, I think the added sources are extremely low quality, and I very much doubt they would stand up at another AfD, but AfD is where the quality of sources gets determined. -- RoySmith (talk) 02:06, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Meta-context explanation: "my brain hurts" is a catchphrase from the Gumbys skits in the British television series Monty Python's Flying Circus. Pete AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 11:08, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is also, apparently, a punk rock album. -- RoySmith (talk) 15:08, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Overturn speedy and send to AfD. I consider the expanded version to be sufficiently different for G4 to be inappropriate. However, I also agree that notability for this article is borderline. Note: I prompted the article creator at Template:Did you know nominations/Joseph Forbes (educator) to start a discussion here. feminist (talk) 06:00, 4 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.

Suhai Aziz Talpur – Moot. Article has been restored already, so nothing left to do here. I do note, however, that this DRV was opened 12 minutes after leaving the initial query on the closing admin's talk page. That's not a reasonable amount of time to wait for a response. -- RoySmith (talk) 11:45, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.

This is a marginal delete with three delete votes vs. two keep, after a first AfD which resulted in unanimous keep. She has recently received significant worldwide coverage for her heroics during the 2018 Karachi Chinese consulate attack, see Google News results. I believe she now meets WP:GNG. I posted a message on the deleting admin's talk page, but then noticed that they had not been active recently. Zanhe (talk) 04:51, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse deletion- I don't see much wrong with the deletion, given that it was relisted to gain better consensus and consensus was clear from that point on. If this person has become notable since May I would have no problem with the article being re-created. Reyk _YO! 08:30, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep She meets GNG now. Reuters account^[1] is being widely mined for other news stories. Apparently she is also a social media heroine in China.^[2] We should expect wider coverage of this feel-good story, and have a decent article where people can learn more about her.HouseOfChange (talk) 09:32, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Hassan, Syed Raza (November 25, 2018). "Pakistani woman police commander led defense of Chinese mission". Reuters. Retrieved November 26, 2018. Pakistani policewoman Suhai Aziz Talpur heard of the attack on the Chinese consulate in Karachi while driving to work. She rushed to the scene to find two of her colleagues dead, and a trio of insurgents attempting to blow their way into the building. Her fast response and actions during the nearly two-hour assault on the diplomatic mission in the southern port city have been praised for saving countless lives, turning 30-year-old Talpur into an instant celebrity - and potential feminist icon - in Pakistan, where female police officers remain rare.
^ "Chinese social media falls in love with SP Suhai Talpur, literally". The Express Tribune. November 25, 2018. Retrieved November 26, 2018. IG Sindh Kaleem Imam has asked for Talpur to be conferred with the Quaid-e-Azam Police medal. She is the first female officer whose name has been recommended for the award. Since the attack a picture of Talpur holding her pistol, flanked by commandos, has gone viral on social media in Pakistan. Her bravery has also earned her a nomination for the country's highest award for police officers.

Closing admin I've restored it, as honestly I think this is pretty uncontroversial, and would have happily done so without a DRV. As can be seen from the AfD, the article was a little borderline in terms of notability but was deleted as some of the coverage was a bit of a stretch to demonstrate notability, while the overall claim as to why she was notable was also a bit thin. With even a few new reliable sources (which HouseOfChange (talk · contribs) seems to have already located) the article is in a perfectly okay state to be updated. No issue with Zanhe (talk · contribs) taking this to DRV given I hadn't edited in a few weeks, but in actual fact i'm around! I'll leave it to someone else to close the DRV if appropriate (just in case there are objections I haven't foreseen), but this should be resolved assuming the article actually does get updated now. ~ mazca ^talk 09:47, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.

[Reuters-1] Hassan, Syed Raza (November 25, 2018). "Pakistani woman police commander led defense of Chinese mission". Reuters. Retrieved November 26, 2018. Pakistani policewoman Suhai Aziz Talpur heard of the attack on the Chinese consulate in Karachi while driving to work. She rushed to the scene to find two of her colleagues dead, and a trio of insurgents attempting to blow their way into the building. Her fast response and actions during the nearly two-hour assault on the diplomatic mission in the southern port city have been praised for saving countless lives, turning 30-year-old Talpur into an instant celebrity - and potential feminist icon - in Pakistan, where female police officers remain rare.

[SocMed-2] "Chinese social media falls in love with SP Suhai Talpur, literally". The Express Tribune. November 25, 2018. Retrieved November 26, 2018. IG Sindh Kaleem Imam has asked for Talpur to be conferred with the Quaid-e-Azam Police medal. She is the first female officer whose name has been recommended for the award. Since the attack a picture of Talpur holding her pistol, flanked by commandos, has gone viral on social media in Pakistan. Her bravery has also earned her a nomination for the country's highest award for police officers.

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