Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yugoslav Youth Football Cup

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Fenix down (talk) 08:30, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yugoslav Youth Football Cup (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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Has been PRODed before but was removed without giving a reason. Does not give any results when you type "Yugoslav Youth Football Cup" into Google News. Since this appears to fail WP:GNG and youth football competitions are not inherently notable, I see no option but to delete. Spiderone 18:29, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 18:30, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 18:30, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Serbia-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 18:30, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Montenegro-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 18:31, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bosnia and Herzegovina-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 18:31, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Croatia-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 18:31, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of North Macedonia-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 18:32, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Spiderone 18:33, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 18:53, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• @Spiderone: You seriously expected results to come up when you typed "Yugoslav Youth Football Cup" into Google News? Are you doing any sort of actual before search for all of the AfDs you're doing other than Google News? This article is a single-sentence stub that could be deleted without prejudice of recreation, especially considering we have an adequate Croatian-language page for the cup (which includes a reliable source) but I'm now very concerned that you're not doing adequate before searches for the AfDs that you've been nominating, even if some/all of them are technically correct. This is a translated name - it's probably never been called the "Yugoslav Youth Football Cup" until it became a Wikipedia article - and the competition dissolved with the country, many years before Google started searching the web. SportingFlyer T·C 19:50, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Croatian-language article refers to page 103-104 which, unfortunately, we don't have access to. I'm not sure two pages on a sports almanac would necessarily give enough coverage but, anyway, we won't know. Further digging gives this Bosnian article, this Croatian article and this list of winners but still not enough for WP:GNG in my view Spiderone 20:55, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is really frustrating for me as stranice 103-104 are clearly in that issue, you have to look at the page numbers, not the issue numbers as the pages were scanned two at a time. Both of the articles you mentioned are Bosnian blogs. This competition would have absolutely been notable in the former Yugoslavia. You have other retrospectives such as [1], [2], stories like [3] where winning the youth cup is part of the obituary. There's no reason why this article couldn't be developed into a list of winners per the other languages. As noted, I have no problem with removing it as it stands now. SportingFlyer T·C 21:46, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - no significant coverage, no indication of notability. GiantSnowman 21:15, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Conditional keep if it's expanded to a sourced list of winners. Per SportingFlyer's evidence, the competition was a rather big thing in the country that does not exist for 30 years, so online evidence is scarce. The reference from hr.wiki (Almanah Tempo YU-Fudbal 90-91.) is reliable and I can access it on issuu and confirm the pages are there (it's an open issue whether a scanned copy of a 1991 magazine is kosher to link, but well, I cannot unsee it). No such user (talk) 14:00, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Looks like it's been copied over from hr-wiki, so would support a keep. SportingFlyer T·C 15:43, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Indeed, so stricken-through. No such user (talk) 13:27, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong keep For WP:SYSTEMIC, never saw a proposal for FA Youth Cup or others to be deleted. Ludost Mlačani (talk) 15:32, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per above sources, and there should be TONS of coverage in Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian national newspapers. Even in Slovenian newspapers (which I have access to) the final was always covered, for example the 1989–90 final is covered in Delo (newspaper), issue 21 May 1990, page 11, not to mention that the final matches had usual attendances of ~20,000 people and were sometimes even broadcast live (and this is not 2020 when every farmer leauge is streamed, only very important matches were broadcast live back then). Snowflake91 (talk) 10:15, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - perhaps people could add the sources to the article and expand/improve it rather than just saying 'there are sources it's notable lol'??? Please ping me once done. GiantSnowman 18:41, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

But there must be sources! Spiderone 20:23, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As long as the article have at least one source it cannot be deleted for not having sources, WP:NEXIST, and AfD is to demonstrate notability (which was demonstraed), so you can add sources by yourself if you want. Web-based sources that demonstrate media coverage even 30+ years after the competition ceased are 1 (NOT a blog, its an official news website and is registered in the Bosnian media/press registry), 2 (a little bit less reliable website, but its still not a blog), (3) a reunion of the team that has won the cup in 1982 with match report, and then you have all winners listed in the almanac, a reliable source written by several notable journalists and sports statisticians, including Vasilije Stojković, and a newspaper coverage which I provided above, and if you give me a dates of the final matches, I can find Slovenian newspaper coverage for pretty much all matches since 1970 in Večer and Delo. Not everything is on the web you know, if you seriously think that those matches were not covered in the biggest Serbian, Croatian, Slovenian and Bosnian daily newspapers you must be foolish, its like saying that the Daily Express, The Sun, The Guardian etc. did not cover FA Youth Cup in the 1960s and 1970s just because you cant find it on the web. Remember that to pass notability, the sources does NOT need to be in Enligsh, and does NOT need to be on the web...and the fact that you tried to find sources by typing "Yugoslav Youth Football Cup", an English-name that was invented by Wikipedia, in the google news, is just wow. Find someone who is Serbian and has an access to Večernje novosti and DSL Sport archives, and you will get extensive coverage. So, you have at least three news articles on the web, an alumni with all the winners, and proven coverage in the local newspaper, so this is enough to pass WP:GNG. "Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material", so solely those 3 web articles are enough to prove at least some notability, not even counting almanac or printed newspaper coverage. If the English 15th level leagues (!) can have an articles because there is one site covering it with routine match reports (not enough per your own rules btw), if the English 10th level clubs can have articles because they played one 1st round FA cup game a zillion years ago, and if two 4th division teams can have an article about their rivalry just because there is one newspaper article that called it "a derby", and if English stadium with a few hundred seats can have an article because apparently it just exists and thats enough, then Yugoslav Youth Cup can also have an article, and dont bring that WP:OTHERSTUFF bullshit, it just a systematic WP:BIAS as someone already mentioned above to delete everything that isnt England-related unless there are 100 articles to provide notability, and even then you will find something to delete it. Snowflake91 (talk) 21:00, 23 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I looked through newspaper archives in Varaždin and it didn't mention the cup final for the two years in which I looked, but it also wasn't daily and focused largely on the clubs in the area. Otherwise completely agree. SportingFlyer T·C 21:05, 23 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Local newspapers wont cover it unless NK Varaždin would make the finals, for Croatia, there is simply no way that Slobodna Dalmacija and Večernji list wont cover the matches, especially in the years when CRO club was in the final. Snowflake91 (talk) 21:30, 23 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. That was the only Yugoslavian-era periodical I could quickly gain historical access to, showing the level of difficulty. I don't know where to find old copies of Slobodna/Večernji list without going back to Croatia. SportingFlyer T·C 21:36, 23 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.