Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Victor Stone (DC Extended Universe)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was withdrawn by nominator‎. This AfD discussion has been superseded by a series of merge requests on each of the challenged articles' talk pages, please see WT:FILM#Deletion of DCEU articles. (non-admin closure) InfiniteNexus (talk) 21:13, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Victor Stone (DC Extended Universe)

AfDs for this article:

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As per WP:NFILMCHAR. The only major appearance of the character is in Justice League (2017) and its editor's cut, and the character doesn't seem to be notable itself. Redjedi23 (talk) 13:27, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 14:49, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am also nominating the following related pages because none of these DCEU characters seems to be notable. Most of them made just one appearance, and many of the things reported in these pages concerns more the development of the film (e.g. Steppenwolf and Victor Stone):

*I'll toss in a few other DC film characters from outside the DCEU. Once again, some are obvious candidates to merge, while some others may be more debatable:

Merge all to their main articles. Non-notable incarnations of popular characters. Dronebogus (talk) 16:25, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Merge There are some with better claims to a standalone article than others, but none of them demonstrate where they need separate articles from their overall character articles. The reception of characters that would demonstrate they are significant standalone incarnations doesn't exist in the articles at present (CBR or Screenrant content) or are focused on the film itself (Leto's Joker performance) and the main articles aren't so long that size issues justify splits. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 17:44, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 17:57, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I'd hold off on Amanda Waller and Peacemaker, or at most draftify those, as Peacemaker is the main protagonist of his own television series, and he and Waller will appear extensively in upcoming DCU media. Lex Luthor has some good commentary, but I can probably see it merged with Lex Luthor (1978 film series character) into Lex Luthor in film or simply to the existing Lex Luthor in other media. The same can be said for Zod, which I'd say can be merged with General Zod (1978 film series character) to General Zod in film.

Victor Stone/Cyborg and Steppenwolf have material that can be merged to Production of Justice League (film), especially as their characters were the most affected by the reshoots and what happened with Cyborg caused notable controversy. Mera's article has stuff that is mostly covered in Depp v. Heard and Aquaman and the Lost Kingdom and can be simply merged to the main article.

Other than that I have no issue with merging, especially if we've defined what makes an incarnation of a character notable. Lois Lane should be merged to Lois Lane in other media and Joker can also be merged to Joker in other media.

In addition, there are a lot of Donnerverse and Burton/SchumacherVerse characters that could also be merged or deleted. --WuTang94 (talk) 19:21, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You're right, Waller and Peacemaker articles have potential. Maybe they can be put in the draft namespace, as you suggest. Redjedi23 (talk) 20:23, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Handle outside AfD You could call this "Speedy Keep per criterion 1b" but that's a bit passive-aggressive, and I empathize with what the nom is trying here. Basically, you're making a reasonable point, but 1) it's better served by individual discussions, and 2) when notability of a set of characters is discussed, it's inherently impossible to have a nuanced, data-driven discussion on more than, say, 2-3 characters at once. Draftification is a legitimate option, but results in something being a) lost from mainspace, and 2) missing from a search until someone does something, so a redirect with possibilities is clearly a better option. But this is all something better hashed out on individual talk pages. I am entirely sympathetic with the notion that fictional characters appearing in slightly different franchises/universes should generally be discussed together in one article per character unless they diverge as much as, say, Lieutenant Starbuck and Kara Thrace. This is just not the right tool for that job. Jclemens (talk) 01:02, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'd rather see them discussed one by one. On the surface, merge is reasonable, but I checked two entries and they both appear to have quite a lot about the actor and reception, which may be undue in the article about the comic book character. Better merge targets may be some relevant movies, and the case for those characters having stand-alone GNG is less far fetched than what I imagined at first.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:29, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you and Jclemens, there shouldn't be a one-size-fits-all solution for all of these at once, as I believe some articles merit keeping over others. Each article should be examined individually, but I do think that having a place to oversee discussion for all these articles would be good for management, and I'm guessing that's what Redjedi23 was aiming for when they decided to mass-nominate all the DCEU articles. However, I wouldn't be opposed to splitting this into individual talk pages. WuTang94 (talk) 07:19, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have no problem in splitting discussion. However, I think it's fine to talk in a single discussion about every Batman article that @WuTang94 added. Redjedi23 (talk) 09:35, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy close I agree with the nominator's sentiments, but unfortunately, this is a WP:TRAINWRECK. These articles should be re-nominated in smaller batches based on their shared attributes, for example, everyone who has only appeared once as a supporting/minor character, everyone who has only appeared once but as a major/lead character, etc. InfiniteNexus (talk) 18:05, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The initial batch was of only DCEU characters. Which DCEU characters would you list in a single batch? Redjedi23 (talk) 19:38, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'd renominate each one separately. See my comment below. WuTang94 (talk) 23:08, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Merge all of them. Kill 'em. These spinouts are completely unnecessary and pure fancruft. Take out the MCU ones while we're at it. JOE BRO ⁶⁴ 21:07, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You might want to review and challenge WP:MCUCHARACTERS and WP:NFILMCHAR, then. WuTang94 (talk) 23:05, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment These mass nominations seem like a bad idea.★Trekker (talk) 22:48, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Initially, it was a minor-DCEU character nomination, but Wutang94 added other articles. Redjedi23 (talk) 00:11, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Apologies if this is just piling, but I agree with the above concerns that these mass nominations are just not a good idea. It puts a lot of weight and expectations on editors to look through each article, do the research to fairly judge about if coverage exists or not, and make a decision. I do not have any opinion either way about this set of articles, but these kinds of mass nominations never seem productive to me. Aoba47 (talk) 02:11, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I removed the articel nominated by WuTang94 after the concern by the users. Is it fine now or we have to create another discussion? Redjedi23 (talk) 10:05, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I also would have individual discussions for the DCEU ones. Even if all but two of them seem to be merge-able [single tear rolling down my face as the author of pretty much all of these pages, but if it has to be done, it has to be done], the merge targets should be more specific, especially with Zod and Luthor.
I'll also renominate the non-DCEU articles separately. WuTang94 (talk) 23:03, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, just created merge requests for all articles listed above except for the ones in which I more strongly disagree on (Peacemaker, Amanda Waller, DCEU Lex Luthor). Redjedi23 if you want to make merge requests for those, you can follow my template on any of the other pages, or follow the guidelines of WP:Merging. WuTang94 (talk) 01:30, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This AfD and the merge requests should not be open at the same time. Either @Redjedi23 should withdraw this nomination or @WuTang94 should withdraw theirs.

For reference, the following are the pages that were tagged with merge requests:
Talk:Victor Stone (DC Extended Universe)#Merge request

Talk:Joker (DC Extended Universe)#Merge request

Talk:Zod (DC Extended Universe)#Merge request

Talk:Mera (DC Extended Universe)#Merge request

Talk:Steppenwolf (DC Extended Universe)#Merge request

Talk:Lois Lane (DC Extended Universe)#Merge request

Talk:Supergirl (1984 film character)#Merge request

Talk:Vicki Vale (1989 film series character)#Merge request

Talk:Oswald Cobblepot (Batman Returns)#Merge request

Talk:Harvey Dent (1989 film series character)#Merge request

Talk:Dick Grayson (1989 film series character)#Merge request

Talk:Edward Nygma (Batman Forever)#Merge request

Talk:Victor Fries (Batman & Robin)#Merge request

Talk:Pamela Isley (Batman & Robin)#Merge request

The following pages were not tagged:
Talk:Amanda Waller (DC Extended Universe)

Talk:Lex Luthor (DC Extended Universe)

Talk:Lex Luthor (1978 film series character)

Talk:Joker (Jack Napier)

– InfiniteNexus (talk) 18:11, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
With all due respect, I would close out the mass-AfD in favor of the separate merge requests as each article should be looked at separately. WuTang94 (talk) 23:02, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have no problem in close the AfD, but I would note that it is not a massive AfD because there are 8 DCEU related articles that have the same problem. Maybe Waller is the exception. Redjedi23 (talk) 13:20, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.