Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Third Battle of Brega

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Nomination withdrawn by User:EkoGraf. (non-admin closure) Terrillja _talk 20:45, 2 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Third Battle of Brega

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Simply put, there was no battle. Loyalist forces simply retreated from Brega even before the rebels arrived. And if there were any clashes, but nobody is reporting there were any, than they were only minor firefights between forward rebel units and rear-guard loyalist troops. No sources exist that confirm some kind of battle occured for the town. EkoGraf (talk) 19:40, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete article, but merge whatever salvageable content there is regarding the recapture of the town to Second Battle of Brega. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 21:48, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Redirect to Late March 2011 Libyan rebel offensive. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:28, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, per EkoGraf. Info has already been included in Second Battle of Brega and Timeline of the 2011 Libyan uprising. 140.247.147.229 (talk) 21:53, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, Delete. BGManofID (talk) 01:06, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Merge with Timeline of the 2011 Libyan uprising as there are no reports about actuall battle. --EllsworthSK (talk) 01:43, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete and rewrite the "battle" as an endnote at Battle of Ajdabiya. 65.93.12.101 (talk) 05:00, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete and cite as an epilogue for the Ajdabiya battle. "...heading to Ras Lanuf encountering no resistance". Hegmn (talk) 05:25, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

~~Or rather, Brega. 140.247.145.184 (talk) 13:52, 27 March 2011 (UTC)~~ My apologies, all read up on my news now! 140.247.145.184 (talk) 14:11, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete seeing as there was no actual battle. A sentence in relevant articles can cover this. Totnesmartin (talk) 09:37, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete From the BBC's website, 27 March (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12873434): 'Libyan rebels are advancing westwards after re-taking the port of Ajdabiya from Muammar Gaddafi's forces. They have captured the coastal town of Brega without a fight and say they are moving towards the heartland of Col Gaddafi's support.' QED. Ynyrhesolaf (talk) 10:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete AJE reporter says remaining Gaddafi fighters surrendered immediately ScepticMatt (talk) 13:30, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete or melt into 2nd battle of Brega, mentionning a second phase. Kormin (talk) 13:53, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Source saying yet again that this was "not a battle" but rather a "withdrawal and a surrender of Gaddafi's forces" (2:51 time slot). (AJE) 140.247.145.184 (talk) 14:11, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - at least for the time being. Its title ("3rd battle of Brega" fits well with the others (1st & 2nd battles), although in time the whole network of articles may be restructured. This is OK for now. Any change will create confusion (e.g. why is one called "Battle of Brega" while the other is just an adjunct to the Battle of Ajdebaya - which anyhow is about 200km away!)

Aa42john (talk) 15:03, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What? Problem wasn't with title but rather the issue that there was no battle to speak of. In fact, I think I smell consensus...? 140.247.146.66 (talk) 18:03, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think you smell right. :) EkoGraf (talk) 19:09, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, I don't recall a Third Battle of Brega... Cowik (talk) 20:09, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment There wasn't specifically a 'Third Battle of Brega' but there was a specific offensive which has ended up with the rebels in control of Brega and Ras Lanuf. It would be a mistake, I think, to mess up the concise 2nd battle of Brega, or ignore this crucial military push. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.97.142.152 (talk) 22:12, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This information is already included in relevant articles (the timeline, the Battle of Ajdabiya, previous battles of Brega). Perhaps a Conquest of Brega, Ra's Lanuf, and Bin Jawad or something? Or has the media given a name to it, say, 26 March Offensive or something? Consequences of the Battle of Ajdabiya? Or should we just leave it as is with the information on those other pages? 140.247.147.170 (talk) 00:33, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There was no "offensive" and using the term "conquest" would have bad connotations, it was a recapture of a territory after a strategic retreat by pro-Gaddafi forces. Nothing less, nothing more.Ihosama (talk) 10:09, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. Buckshot06 (talk) 23:15, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as there was no battle. But by all means mention it somewhere with the refs - perhaps at Marsa Brega article itself, and/or the article for the second battle and/or the timeline article. Herostratus (talk) 01:38, 28 March 2011 (UTC)Merge this and Third Battle of Brega into Late March 2011 Libyan rebel offensive per later discussion. Herostratus (talk) 18:44, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Change change it from 3rd Battle of Brega to something like Retaking of Brega or Counteroffensive of Libyan Rebels or possibly Brega Skirmishes (March 26-27) or something like that —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.251.112.178 (talk) 01:47, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, this is an interesting proposal. If we can find the sources to support it, a unified article describing this latest rebel offensive would be quite useful. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 09:24, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Merge.VR _talk 04:05, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delete and merge usable citations into the Battle of Ajdabiya article as the recapture of Brega was its direct consequence/continuation.Ihosama (talk) 10:09, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep and re-purpose The "Third" battle of Brega seems to be taking place right about now.Ihosama (talk) 18:01, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So... if there's consensus, should this be deleted now? 140.247.144.74 (talk) 17:39, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, there is consensus, anybody got a delete button? EkoGraf (talk) 19:35, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 18:41, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Middle East-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 18:41, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of News-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 18:42, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, as there is no other smooth article transition from pro-Gadhafi control to anti-Gadhafi control. Such a transition cannot be considered a part of the Second Batle of Brega, and it's not a smooth transition if the numbering is done away with. This is the best way to handle the three battles of Brega. --Delta1989 (talk/contributions) 23:47, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You can't just invent a battle that didn't exist for the sake of "a smooth transition". However, I'd be more than happy to see a Late March 2011 Rebel Offensive or Sirte Offensive or especially a Battle of An Nawfaliyah per the AJE live blog and other sources. Maybe both a Recapture of Brega and Ra's Lanuf article for the easy takeover of those towns and other coastal towns and a separate Battle of An Nawfaliyah article for the fighting going on in that area? We can't invent a Third Battle of Brega out of convenience. 140.247.147.221 (talk) 02:23, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

as they were all part of one operation, perhaps Second rebel advance on Sirte or something like that? Totnesmartin (talk) 21:54, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's an idea. What I don't understand is why this article still exists.... 140.247.244.161 (talk) 02:34, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have been thinking that maybe Late March 2011 Libyan Rebel Offensive wouldn't be such a bad idea. Not Sirte Offensive or Battle of An Nawfaliyah, but Late March 2011 Libyan Rebel Offensive might just be a good idea. However by all accounts it's coming to an end very soon since loyalists are at the gates of Ajdabiya again. EkoGraf (talk) 16:15, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Late March 2011 Libyan Rebel Offensive would be great. I understand the thing with all battles being a series of skirmishes, but this was one fluid military action covering hundreds of kilometers. And yeah, we might have to tack on a Late March 2011 Libyan Loyalist Counteroffensive at the rate things are going.... Is there an overarching Eastern Front (Libya) article possibility to gather these kind of things together? 140.247.145.77 (talk) 17:45, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What about: First Libyan Rebel Coastal Offensive (of March 2011) - First Libyan Loyalist Coastal Offensive (of March 2011) - Second Libyan Rebel Coastal Offensive (of March 2011) - Second Libyan Loyalist Coastal Offensive (of March 2011).

And keep separate articles regarding specific battles where justified. I would suggest to avoid the use of Early March, Late March for that would lead to a Mid March Loyalist offensive. Also using "counteroffensive" shall be avoided as it has an embedded meaning who is the attacker so it could be considered as biased.Ihosama (talk) 18:01, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Merge all Brega articles into one Battles of Brega. There may end up being ten or so by the end. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scottbp (talk • contribs) 20:31, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. There is now an article Fourth Battle of Brega created today (apparently the battle is ongoing as I write this). Whichever side wins, a fifth battle (at least) seems likely. So rather than just deleting this article (which would leave Fourth Battle of Brega intact barring a separate deletion discussion, ditto Fifth Battle of Brega if/when created), can this be sorted out in some other way? Also, one question I have is: are there reliable sources using the term "Third Battle of Brega" or is this just made up by us? That's allowed, but still. Closing admin will have a difficult task... Herostratus (talk) 21:14, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No one calling Third Battle of Brega a Third Battle of Brega. Also, this fourth battle looks like it's jst like this third one. A small clash between forward loyalist units and rearguard rebel units. No real battle. However I think I have found a solution. A creation of an article named Late March 2011 Libyan rebel offensive or March-April 2011 Libyan rebel offensive if it continues into April. We would merge both the Second battle of Bin Jawad and these so-called third and fourth battles of Brega into this one article. Any objections to this proposal? EkoGraf (talk) 22:02, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

MergeI was the one who created the 'fourth battle of brega' page, simply due to what i was reading on the news site I go on. I was expecting some consensus to be reached that the 'third battle' was really a battle and articles to be renamed/deleted accordingly. However, I seen the merged article, think that works better, seeing as the so-called 'fourth battle' didn't appear to be much of a battle either and given whats happened so far in the conflict, the battle numbers could realistically get ridiculous. KP-TheSpectre (talk) 23:31, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Strongly support, and it might still be a good idea to have an additional Eastern Front (2011 Libyan Civil War) summary article. 140.247.144.98 (talk) 02:46, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support Keep up the good work EkoGraf! Ihosama (talk) 22:51, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment this article has been replaced by the new article Late March 2011 Libyan rebel offensive in the usual set of articles for the Libyan civil war. 65.93.12.101 (talk) 09:17, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, there is NO good reason to delete this article. It's brevity over information, this page should be kept Swalgal (talk) 19:07, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Re-address considering that the rebels retook the town, quickly lost it again and now have returned and are fighting for control of it again with Gaddafi Loyalists, I think the so-called 'third battle' would be what is happening now KP-TheSpectre (talk) 19:12, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In the case that the current fighting at Brega doesn't stop by tomorrow should we maybe consider calling the current fighting there the third battle of Brega? As it is the loyalists retook the town on March 30, the rebels attempted a counter-attack on March 31 and were beaten back, they are attempting another counter-attack today. If the situation doesn't change by tomorrow we leave it as it is, however if there are changes on the frontline by tomorrow we should maybe rewritte this article so it fits with this new third battle of brega that started on March 30 or 31 however you see it. EkoGraf (talk) 21:39, 1 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It seems fighting around Brega is continuing, with Al Jazeera reporting that rebels now control much of the town (see http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-april-2). I think it would be better the delete the current contents of the article and replace them with the details of what is going on currently, as this amount to more of a 'Third battle of Brega'. KP-TheSpectre (talk) 15:08, 2 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Info can be found without much difficulty on major news sources... that there are few sources is the fault of editor laziness and not of the topic itself. [also, one should note that there has been a fourth battle of Brega, in which the regime retook the city from the rebels, and then a fifth, where the rebels counterattacked a few days after; the fifth is still ongoing.]--Yalens (talk) 16:29, 2 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What you are referring to as the 'Third' and 'Fourth' battles were not really battles, the rebels took the city in the 'third battle' without firing a shot, as did the loyalists a few days later. these have now been merge into the late march rebel offensive. what you call the 'fifth battle', is really more the third KP-TheSpectre (talk) 16:48, 2 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ok we do the following. In essence the Late March rebel offensive ended when they were pushed back to Brega. Than started the Third battle of Brega. The content on the Third battle of Brega from the rebel offensive article will be moved to this article and be rewritten. The rebel offensive ended in their defeat. We will see now how this battle of Brega ends. EkoGraf (talk) 18:12, 2 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I the nominator for deletion of this article am changing my vote to keep since there is now a real Third Battle of Brega, unlike what happened a week ago. EkoGraf (talk) 18:35, 2 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.