Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Smokescreen (Transformers) (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge‎ to List of The Transformers (TV series) characters#Autobot Cars. There's a consensus below (between the delete, merge and redirect opinions) that the article shouldn't be retained. Closing as merge as an AtD that was extensively discussed and I saw no significant opposition to. Daniel (talk) 20:31, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Smokescreen (Transformers) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Found only toys from my WP:BEFORE; has toys =/= notable 2605:B40:1303:900:DD62:A1B6:17A:9D75 (talk) 13:35, 31 October 2023 (UTC) clerked by Mach61 (talk) 03:43, 1 November 2023 (UTC) [reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements, Comics and animation, and Toys. Mach61 (talk) 03:43, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Didn't we do this with the sockpuppet guy the other day? BoomboxTestarossa (talk) 08:20, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Yes, but I still didn't find anything substantial from my WP:BEFORE 2605:B40:1303:900:DD62:A1B6:17A:9D75 (talk) 14:30, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  What was your Before? BoomboxTestarossa (talk) 18:36, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  And is there a reason you're interested in AfDs and won't sign up for an account? Forgive me if that sounds rude, but considering the previous nominator was blocked, renominated AfDs that didn't go their way and seemed interested in evading their block I feel it is a question worth asking. BoomboxTestarossa (talk) 18:43, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete covered by zero RS's. InfiniteNexus (talk) 18:32, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Speedy keep. this nomination is most likely by a sock of the previous nominator, and as such would fall under bad faith. DrowssapSMM (talk) (contributions) 21:19, 1 November 2023 (UTC) striking original vote per Ferret. DrowssapSMM (talk) (contributions) 22:07, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Procedural keep. Nomination was made by the request of a WP:SPA ip at Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion#AfD request for Smokescreen (Transformers) (2nd nomination). Given that the original nominator at the first AFD, Grandmaster Huon, is indefinitely blocked for WP:SOCKPUPPETRY, it is a high probability that this nomination was made as an end around a permanent block by that user.4meter4 (talk) 21:37, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Where is the evidence that this IP is a sock of the blocked user? I mean, I'm not denying the possibility that they are a sock, but suggesting a connection between the two without evidence doesn't seem to be assuming good faith. Perhaps a CU can assist us. InfiniteNexus (talk) 21:44, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment by CU/blocking admin of Grandmaster Huon I see no connection between this IPv6 editor and Grandmaster Huon, who is not blocked for sockpuppetry but for CIR issues. No comment on the AFD itself, clearing the air on the socking allegation. -- ferret (talk) 22:01, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  @DrowssapSMM and 4meter4: Be aware that your !votes are essentially invalid as a result, and likely to be ignored by the closer. You may want to evaluate the topic and give a policy based reason for keep as a result. -- ferret (talk) 22:03, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  @Ferret My mistake on the sock. I mistook your mention of "multiple accounts" in the block as a sock report. I mainly commented here because I saw the note by Drowssap and agreed a nomination likely made by a blocked user shouldn't stand.4meter4 (talk) 22:07, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  (edit conflict) Thanks, Ferret. As I wrote in above, the allegations were made irresponsibly and without evidence. WP:DUCK is generally good advice, but this is just not assuming good faith. InfiniteNexus (talk) 22:08, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  @InfiniteNexus and you are now not assuming good faith of us and are also violating WP:AGF. We are all want to keep the encyclopedia a safe place that is functioning well. Mistakes happen. Be gracious.4meter4 (talk) 22:13, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I did not imply that your action (making an accusation without evidence) was done in bad faith. I said it was irresponsible, meaning you should have done things differently. Assuming good faith doesn't mean one cannot call out another user for a poor decision, even if it was done with good intentions. To be clear, I have no doubt that you meant no malice with the accusation. InfiniteNexus (talk) 22:20, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Personally I would still like to hear from the nominator; while there is likely a reasonable explanation it is a striking coincidence and IMHO a highly unusual choice of a first edit for a passing unregistered user. That said, I am not sure my word has any weight as I have decided to take a hiatus from editing due to the recent spate of shitty nominations based on entirely Google-based BEFORE making me highly wary of sinking further time into creating content that might get taken out by driveby trolls and the usual mob of axe-grinders. BoomboxTestarossa (talk) 01:15, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• (it is also relevant I feel that the blocked first nominator made attempts to get other users to make nominations by proxy) BoomboxTestarossa (talk) 01:18, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@BoomboxTestarossa An misunderstanding of how IPv6 works is why this has blown up. IPv6 editors frequently change IPs within (generally) a tight range assigned by their ISP. This is completely outside their control. This IPv6 editor has been editing for months and has requested other AFDs in the past. See Special:Contributions/2605:B40:1303:900::/64. This is all one individual, across the different IPs their ISP has assigned them. This is essentially the very first step any sysop takes when reviewing an IPv6 editor. -- ferret (talk) 01:21, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Leaning Keep. As with many of the early Transfomers toys, Bellomo's Transformers: Identification and Price Guide has SIGCOV. There's some SIGCOV in Stuart Webb's Transformation: A Personal Journey Through the British Transformers Comic Volume 2: 1987-1989. I am pretty sure this subject this will pass GNG. As is the case with many Transformers characters, there are so many incarnations through toys, comics, TV, movies, games, etc. —siroχo 05:08, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  As I said, has toys =/= notable; I didn't find anything for his incarnations either 2605:B40:1303:900:DD62:A1B6:17A:9D75 (talk) 13:46, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Can you explain what you mean by "has toys =/= notable"? —siroχo 18:21, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Smokescreen has lots of toys, but that isn't enough to constitute SIGCOV 2605:B40:1303:900:DD62:A1B6:17A:9D75 (talk) 22:17, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  The toys themselves aren't the SIGCOV. SIGCOV about the toys is. —siroχo 02:45, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  It's really just reviews though, not anything substantial 2605:B40:1303:900:DD62:A1B6:17A:9D75 (talk) 13:28, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Also, the Identification and Price Guide contains only brief descriptions of toys 2605:B40:1303:900:DD62:A1B6:17A:9D75 (talk) 22:07, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep per the arguments put forth by Siroxo, or at worst merge to List of The Transformers (TV series) characters per WP:ATD. BOZ (talk) 02:18, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. Per nomination. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.239.156.253 (talk) 20:37, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  There's really no RS's to speak of though. 2605:B40:1303:900:DD62:A1B6:17A:9D75 (talk) 20:12, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hi random IP person, as you seem to have no problem jumping in on some votes but seem to have missed a direct question, may I again ask what your Before was? I'm guessing by how vociferously you're referencing it that it's not just a Google search and it involved reliable specialist sources that not just any muppet with a browser and a search engine can find, so before I try to squeeze some actual research on the subject into a busy work week it would be handy to know which sources aren't worth checking. BoomboxTestarossa (talk) 10:15, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    I performed a search on Google, Google Books, and Google News. All I found that was, in fact, about this specific character was either from toy sites or Transformers fansites.

    Admittedly, I should have been more specific. 2605:B40:1303:900:B914:3BD0:A72B:38ED (talk) 23:06, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    So... you've done a Google search? Yikes... fair play for the candour at least. Will see if I can juggle some stuff around and do actual Before at some point in the next few days. BoomboxTestarossa (talk) 14:21, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Also, I don't see anyone providing RS's 2605:B40:1303:900:B914:3BD0:A72B:38ED (talk) 14:40, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    And I don't see good Before. We're all full of useful observations today. BoomboxTestarossa (talk) 17:18, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  ❓ If it's "per nomination" your !vote should be "delete". InfiniteNexus (talk) 19:28, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:51, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. Smokescreen doesn't appear to be notable separately from the franchise/subfranchises as a whole. Cortador (talk) 22:46, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect to the list of Transformers. Article is still just a pure plot summary with no analysis/reception, and what I see above are hopefull wishes that WP:THEREMUSTBESOURCES. Sigh. This is pure WP:FANCRUFT. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:29, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I appreciate your vote, but there is no List of Transformers article (perhaps for good reason) 2605:B40:1303:900:314F:5A6F:E30D:81A7 (talk) 00:34, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  There are List of Transformers film series cast and characters, List of Transformers comics characters, List of The Transformers (TV series) characters, and List of Beast Wars characters. InfiniteNexus (talk) 00:46, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Never mind, my apologies 2605:B40:1303:900:314F:5A6F:E30D:81A7 (talk) 01:01, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• I Abstain form voting, but a suggestion that I would like to make is that perhaps someone could make a combined article with Autobots Bluestreak, Prowl, and Smokescreen since they are all the same design. Davidgoodheart (talk) 23:29, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting. This AFD discussion went astray with speculation on the nominator so let's focus on notability and sources. If you are proposing a Redirect, please specify the target article.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 08:06, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete: This article has no inline citations and very poor sourcing. I don't see which are RS and which aren't and I'm not going to re-write the article using the sources given. Oaktree b (talk) 15:15, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete No reliable sources, pure plot summary and WP:FANCRUFT.The arguments made are without a doubt some of the most atrocious examples of WP:But there must be sources! I've seen in the short time I've been editing here. There have been no compelling arguments made, and "your before sucks, therefore this must be notable! No I'm not providing sources, I'm too busy!" drives me absolutely batty.

  Industrial Insect (talk) 18:40, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • • Don't think I or anyone else said shit Before means notable, just that shit Before means shit Before. Maybe stop trying to drag AFDs into sub-fanboard fallacies to make your case, eh? FWIW I'm not crazy about my work schedule either but being a freelancer in a cost of living crisis means going through issues of Toyfare sometimes has to wait. Sorry you seem to have taken that personally. BoomboxTestarossa (talk) 20:41, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

      I for one appreciate what you can do, when you can do it. :) (I think you knew that already, though.) BOZ (talk) 20:47, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist for this trainwreck of a nomination. Before closing this as No consensus, let's give it a few more days. Maybe the eyes of a different AFD closer can see a rough consensus where I just see chaos.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:52, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge to List of The Transformers (TV series) characters#Autobot Cars, The book Transformation: A Personal Journey Through the British Transformers Comic Volume 2: 1987-1989 seems to be the only reference that is WP:SIGCOV. Not enough to pass WP:GNG. --Mika1h (talk) 15:07, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - After several weeks, there still not evidence of enough significant coverage in reliable sources to pass the WP:GNG. At best, it can be used as a Redirect to List of The Transformers (TV series) characters#Autobot Cars, where an entry and description of the character already exists. Rorshacma (talk) 18:23, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge or delete There is a consensus that this hasn't passed the WP:SIGCOV bar for its own article. Nearly all the !votes here describe either deletion or merger, particularly if we ignore socks and IP editors. The best compromise would be a merge per WP:ATD, allowing editors to work out the appropriate material to WP:PRESERVE (or clean-up) through the editing process. Shooterwalker (talk) 15:21, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.