Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Robbie Gibbons

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was nomination withdrawn Sir Sputnik (talk) 00:52, 23 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Robbie Gibbons

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Contested PROD. Concern was Article about a footballer who fails WP:GNG and who has not played in a fully pro league. PROD was contested on the incorrect grounds that the Cypriot First League is fully pro. According to sourcing at WP:FPL it is not. Sir Sputnik (talk) 19:34, 13 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Sir Sputnik (talk) 19:36, 13 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. Sir Sputnik (talk) 19:36, 13 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Sir Sputnik (talk) 19:39, 13 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - fails both WP:NFOOTBALL and WP:GNG. Giant Snowman 21:16, 13 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - new evidence has come to light that the Cypriot league is fully-pro, meaning he meets WP:NFOOTBALL. Giant Snowman 20:55, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Do Not Delete - Gibbons was a member of the first team squad at Nottingham Forest in this season's Championship. He was given a first team squad number 42 in a completely professional football club. In order to receive a first team number, a player must be recognised and deemed eligible by both the English Football Association (The F.A.) and by the Professional Footballers' Association (P.F.A. - the association for professional footballers in England and Wales. It is the world's oldest professional sportspersons' association and has 4,000 members). In registering the player as a first team squad member he would become an automatic member of both associations. It seems harsh for Wikipedia to deem the player as not being a professional football player, when these two great associations consider him to be both a professional and a member of their ranks. Fanfootnffc Fanfootnffc 18:50, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

For a footballer to be notable for being professional, he must actually play for a professional club. Gibbons never actually played a single minute for Nottingham. Sir Sputnik (talk) 19:19, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies. I did not realise that this was the problem. So it is the issue of notability that is in question and not the issue of whether or not he is a professioanal footballer? What happens if he gets minutes with his new club in Cyprus, because he was on the bench in the last two games? I have noticed that the Cypriot league is not considered fully professional by Wikipedia standards, but I am aware that Gibbons is on a professional contract over there and that Alki Larnaca is a professional club. Fanfootnffc 20:06, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The guideline governing notability for notability for footballers is WP:NFOOTBALL which requires not only the club but the league to be fully professional, in order for the appearance do grant notability. The members of the WikiProject football have compiled a useful list of fully pro league, which lists the Cypriot First Division as a non-fully-pro league, so even if he plays in Cyprus he still would not be notable. Besides, that's speculation and not relevant unless he actually plays. Sir Sputnik (talk) 22:44, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Are you by any chance aware of how they came about compiling this list as the Cypriot First Division is a fully professional league. All fourteen teams in the division pay their players and train five days a week like any other full time professional clubs, so what is it that prevents the league from gaining the status of professionalism? Also, looking at the "List of fully professional leagues" listed on the link you posted, I have noticed that a lot of them are of a lesser standard than the football played in Cyprus. This is not just my opinion, but based on the official UEFA Association coefficient ("League coefficient") ranking table, where the Cypriot League lies 20th.[[1]] (See "Association coefficient ("League coefficient")" As for the speculation issue, I am sure you can appreciate that if a player has been on the bench in the first two games he is eligible to play in, it is only a matter of time before he will make an appearance. Perhaps he has not played yet, but it seems futile to delete an article that will be relevant, true and notable in a the next week or two. Fanfootnffc 14:24, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

WP:FPL is based on available sources on the pro status of the league. The source listed for the Cypriot league states APOEL F.C. are one of the few fully pro clubs in the league, meaning that most of the clubs are not. If you can source your claims of professionalism I'd be inclined to say that the league is fully pro, but in the mean time, we have to go with the sources we've got. As for your comment concerning the UEFA-coefficients, it is completely irrelevant. It is professionalism and not the quality of football that determines notability. Finally, the claim that he will play at some point is speculation in violation of WP:CRYSTAL and therefore not grounds for notability. Sir Sputnik (talk) 15:40, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your help and your comments Sir Sputnik, much appreciated. Fanfootnffc 17:14, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The last time I commented on this discussion, there were two outstanding issues regarding the player being considered worthy of notability to have a page on Wikipedia. One was that the Cypriot First Division was not considered a fully professional league by Wikipedia, where as I contested that it was. The other was that Gibbons had not played any minutes for a first team that are part of a fully professioanal league, which I felt was only a matter of time before it happened, mentioning that he had been on the bench in the first two games he was eligible to play in after he became registered in Cyprus. As for the professional status of the Cypriot First Division, I have come across two articles that might help clear up this issue. The first is an article from The Economist called 'Foreigners account for a third of players in Europe's top football leagues'[[2]], which states that "Proportionally, teams in Cyprus are the biggest importers (of foreign players): more than 70% of players in the Cypriot first division are foreign, according to a report from the Professional Football Players Observatory". If a league is made up by 70% foreign professionals, one could assume that all fourteen clubs in that division are professional clubs in order to pay these players. The second article I found, is a report in The Sport Journal on the 'Important Parameters of the Football Industry in Cyprus'[[3]] and it backs the previous point up even more by clearly stating that "Interviews were conducted with the presidents or secretaries general of all 14 footballs clubs in the first division of the national league, the professional clubs in Cyprus". Hopefully this is enough detail to shift opinion to that of the Cypriot First Division being a fully professional league and changes being made accordingly. As for the second matter mentioned, that of Gibbons not having played any minutes for a team that are part of a fully professional league, as of the 16th February 2011 this is not the case as he came on for the first team and had some playing time. I am unsure if this is enough to overcome this stipulation as the game was a cup game, not a league game, but was still a competitive first team match and he did appear for a team who do play in a fully professional league. Perhaps you could clear this issue up for me. Thanks. Fanfootnffc 10:30, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It certainly looks like the Cypriot League is fully pro. However, I'm uncomfortable making that decision unilaterally, so I've brought it up for discussion, with the sources you provided, here in order to get some input from other editors. As for your question on domestic cup games, the general consensus is that they confer notability if both teams play in a fully pro league. Sir Sputnik (talk) 14:34, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that Sir Sputnik. I understand that it is only fair to properly discuss the issue of the pro status of the league. Both teams do play in the Cypriot First Division, so I guess both issues depend on what comes of that discussion. Much obliged for your efforts and thoroughness. Fanfootnffc 15:26, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - as nominator. Based the sources provided above, the subject now passes WP:NSPORT. Sir Sputnik (talk) 18:40, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:01, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep latest information provided above shows he has played at a notable (professional) level. Eldumpo (talk) 11:09, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.