Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nicole Gurny
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. MBisanz talk 06:16, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Nicole Gurny (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)
Non-notable figure skater, fails WP:V. At age 16, she's never even competed in senior nationals, which means she fails the WP:ATHLETE criterion of competing at the "highest level of amateur sport." With only 106 unique G-hits [1], almost exclusively Wiki mirrors and figure skating websites, there are no reliable sources evident that would fulfill the general notability criteria. Prod removed by creator without comment. RGTraynor 14:12, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. -- the wub "?!" 14:25, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete per RG. Fails WP:ATHLETE. -Djsasso (talk) 19:01, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep has competed on the ISU Junior Grand Prix, which are ISU competitions for Junior skaters, and will compete at Senior nationals this season. Kolindigo (talk) 20:35, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. We don't keep articles on something that might happen. Even if she is at the Junior Grand Prix, that is not the highest level of amateur competition and still wouldn't meet the expectations of WP:ATHLETE. As far as figure skating goes, the highest level of competition would be competitors in the Olympics or the World Championships. Also in general "junior" anything is not considered notable because the competition is not the highest level available, the highest level available always has no restrictions on age beyond a minimum age.-Djsasso (talk) 21:24, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 00:01, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Stifle (talk) 08:50, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- keep Yeah, I know... Crystal Ball... but to me, she's close enough and the specialists of the topic view her as a significant up-and-comer... I'm willing to give a little latitude on this one and see what collaboration comes up with.--Paul McDonald (talk) 15:39, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Reply: WP:CRYSTAL isn't optional; that's like saying "well, they say Soandso, who's been redshirted, is going to play quarterback for Notre Dame Real Soon Now, so he should have an article even if he hasn't actually appeared and there's no guarantee he ever will." That is exactly the situation WP:CRYSTAL is about. Until she's done it, she hasn't done it. When she's done it, if she does it, then an article is appropriate. RGTraynor 18:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Respectfully, WP:CRYSTAL states that wikipeida is not a "collection of unverifiable speculation" -- this is verifiable speculation and I see that as different enough.--Paul McDonald (talk) 18:32, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- There's nothing "verifiable" about it. Nothing catastrophic actually needs to happen; all she does is pull a groin in the wrong week and poof! no senior nationals. No senior nationals, no senior international competition ... and poof! there's another year flushed at an age in the career of a figure skater where those who haven't proven themselves among the elite drop by the wayside. You're not unfamiliar with sports; that sort of thing happens all the time. For every Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen out there, there are a half dozen kids who looked like cocks of the walk in the junior ranks and never actually made it out of them. RGTraynor 19:09, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It's verifiable that she's a competior, that she's good at what she does, and is expected to compete well at the upcoming level. It's unverifiable that she'll "pull a groin in the wrong week" -- Crystal Ball goes both ways. Anyway, I'm still good with it. There's no harm, there's no violation of any policy that I can see, true it's borderline at the moment but that's where I'm at.--Paul McDonald (talk) 19:19, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No violation? Interestingly enough, WP:CRYSTAL touches on this very point: "Avoid predicted sports team line-ups, which are inherently unverifiable and speculative." RGTraynor 21:58, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yep, no violation. The only "prediction" in the entire article is "She is due to make her Senior debut at the 2009 German Figure Skating Championships in Oberstdorf." That is actually a true statement that is verifiable. The rest of the article highlights her numerous and impressive international competition achievments.--Paul McDonald (talk) 22:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Except she hasn't made that appearance yet, which is what violates WP:CRYSTAL. Those impressive achievements as you put them unfortunately are not impressive enough to meet WP:ATHLETE, without meeting WP:ATHLETE it doesn't matter if she is or isn't going to be at those championships because she needs to meet WP:ATHLETE now not sometime next year. Trying to keep the article based on what she might be doing in 2009 is a clear violation of WP:CRYSTAL. If she had other things to make her meet WP:ATHLETE this would be a non-issue but she does not. -Djsasso (talk) 00:54, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Exactly. The local T-ball league highlights the equally impressive (by comparison) achievements of its players, and as far as WP:ATHLETE is concerned, a kiddie T-ball league and novice and junior figure skating competitions have the exact same non-notable import when it comes to qualifying their competitors for articles. Until she competes in senior nationals, and only if she competes in senior nationals, she does not qualify for an article barring passing the general notability criterion of WP:BIO. RGTraynor 14:56, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Normally I'd agree. If this were a local t-ball league (or equivalent) that would end it. But I don't see it that way--this would compare to be more of the world t-ball champion (or perhaps Little League World Series). But beyond that, there's plenty of news and media coverage outside WP:ATHLETE that she, in my opinion, meets WP:BIO general qualifications.--Paul McDonald (talk) 15:11, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- And Little League World Series players are just as non-notable. That being said, if you've found substantial articles about her from sources that are reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject, feel free to post the links. RGTraynor 16:15, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Normally I'd agree. If this were a local t-ball league (or equivalent) that would end it. But I don't see it that way--this would compare to be more of the world t-ball champion (or perhaps Little League World Series). But beyond that, there's plenty of news and media coverage outside WP:ATHLETE that she, in my opinion, meets WP:BIO general qualifications.--Paul McDonald (talk) 15:11, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Exactly. The local T-ball league highlights the equally impressive (by comparison) achievements of its players, and as far as WP:ATHLETE is concerned, a kiddie T-ball league and novice and junior figure skating competitions have the exact same non-notable import when it comes to qualifying their competitors for articles. Until she competes in senior nationals, and only if she competes in senior nationals, she does not qualify for an article barring passing the general notability criterion of WP:BIO. RGTraynor 14:56, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Except she hasn't made that appearance yet, which is what violates WP:CRYSTAL. Those impressive achievements as you put them unfortunately are not impressive enough to meet WP:ATHLETE, without meeting WP:ATHLETE it doesn't matter if she is or isn't going to be at those championships because she needs to meet WP:ATHLETE now not sometime next year. Trying to keep the article based on what she might be doing in 2009 is a clear violation of WP:CRYSTAL. If she had other things to make her meet WP:ATHLETE this would be a non-issue but she does not. -Djsasso (talk) 00:54, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yep, no violation. The only "prediction" in the entire article is "She is due to make her Senior debut at the 2009 German Figure Skating Championships in Oberstdorf." That is actually a true statement that is verifiable. The rest of the article highlights her numerous and impressive international competition achievments.--Paul McDonald (talk) 22:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No violation? Interestingly enough, WP:CRYSTAL touches on this very point: "Avoid predicted sports team line-ups, which are inherently unverifiable and speculative." RGTraynor 21:58, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It's verifiable that she's a competior, that she's good at what she does, and is expected to compete well at the upcoming level. It's unverifiable that she'll "pull a groin in the wrong week" -- Crystal Ball goes both ways. Anyway, I'm still good with it. There's no harm, there's no violation of any policy that I can see, true it's borderline at the moment but that's where I'm at.--Paul McDonald (talk) 19:19, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- There's nothing "verifiable" about it. Nothing catastrophic actually needs to happen; all she does is pull a groin in the wrong week and poof! no senior nationals. No senior nationals, no senior international competition ... and poof! there's another year flushed at an age in the career of a figure skater where those who haven't proven themselves among the elite drop by the wayside. You're not unfamiliar with sports; that sort of thing happens all the time. For every Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen out there, there are a half dozen kids who looked like cocks of the walk in the junior ranks and never actually made it out of them. RGTraynor 19:09, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete, Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. Stifle (talk) 20:41, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.