Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Neil Graham

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. -- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 02:27, 14 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Neil Graham

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Had a prod removed with the comment that they were the head coach in a professional league. However, the league they are a head coach of even the players aren't considered notable, nevermind the coaches. Fails to meet WP:GNG after a search, nothing but passing mentions or routine coverage and also fails to meet WP:NHOCKEY as either a player or a coach. DJSasso (talk) 11:13, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. DJSasso (talk) 11:14, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ice hockey-related deletion discussions. DJSasso (talk) 11:14, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Head coaches of sports teams are often more likely to be notable than their players. For instance, head coaches of Division I college basketball and football teams are generally notable, and hockey coaches at that level usually are as well, even though most players on those teams aren't unless they go pro. So I don't necessarily agree with the logic that if the players on the team aren't notable, the head coach isn't either. Of course, that doesn't mean he is notable either. I'm withholding my !vote until I look into this a bit more, but I wanted to get that out there. Smartyllama (talk) 14:32, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That is definitely the case in some sports I agree, but not generally in the minor leagues of hockey. This league is a few steps down from the NHL and is mostly in markets that don't have much hockey coverage period, let alone in depth articles about the coach. All that being said I couldn't find any sources, but if some can be found that is great. -DJSasso (talk) 16:11, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I removed the PROD. I am seeing multiple published news sources about the subject being named to the position, being nominated as one of the top five coaches in the league, and having his contract extended. I leave it for the hockey people to determine whether this is sufficient for inclusion; I will say that this notability question should be discussed at AfD rather than through PROD, for sure. Carrite (talk) 13:17, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah we typically consider that type of coverage routine. Surprised no one has come to comment yet as we usually have a number comment on these hockey deletions, other than maybe they don't see it as controversial so haven't commented. -DJSasso (talk) 15:45, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: I have held off my conclusions until now and have searched for sources because I sort of assumed they would exist for him. But in the end, I found hundreds of mentions in primary sources and lots of routine coverage (ie "Graham named coach", "Graham signs extension", "Graham named Director", etc). I went through about dozen pages of results for "Neil Graham" hockey and I am just not seeing any articles about Mr. Graham himself. I would happily retract my !vote if someone proves otherwise. Yosemiter (talk) 16:12, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete After reviewing common practices for minor league coaches, both in hockey and other sports, it appears most of them aren't considered notable unless they pass some other criteria - such as having previously played at the highest professional level in their sport. So I agree we shouldn't be granting minor league hockey coaches (or minor league baseball managers, or G-League basketball coaches) the same sort of presumptive, albeit uncodified, notability we grant to Division I college coaches in major sports. As such, since Graham doesn't meet any other criterion of WP:NHOCKEY (never played in the NHL or anything else that would qualify him, as far as I can tell) we have to look to WP:GNG, and I couldn't find anything non-routine. Smartyllama (talk) 17:19, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: That minor-league hockey should not be considered under the same rules and procedures as NCAA Division I basketball or football (I note, for instance, that no one made any comparison to the inherent notability of NCAA Division I lacrosse or track coaches, by way of example) is common sense of the sort that led to the wise decision to unbundle NATHLETE into discrete sports. Division I basketball and football are gigantic deals. Their matches are attended by tens of thousands of fans, broadcast over national networks, dominate regional media. Their coaches are media stars that, when they coach public universities, are often the highest paid public employees in their states. Probably no coaches generate as much press short of those from the top European soccer leagues. By contrast, the subject of this AfD doesn't even toil in the top minor league, and I doubt that any ECHL coach generates as many GNG-qualifying cites in an average season than the coach of Penn State or Alabama will generate this coming weekend. At his level, I'm willing to (charitably) concede presumptive notability for a Coach of the Year citation, and nothing short. Ravenswing 20:30, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.