Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mallory Haldeman
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. Spartaz Humbug! 05:53, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
- Mallory Haldeman (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Article is just an industry profile: some stats, competition history, and a long quote. Sourcing is sparse and, unsurprisingly, consists of just some stats, competition history, and quotes - no real coverage. Mbinebri talk ← 00:48, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. NickGibson3900 Talk 00:51, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bodybuilding-related deletion discussions. NickGibson3900 Talk 00:51, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
- Keep As original editor of this article, I have since added a new section on Media coverage of the subject person as well as added additional content and references.
In creation of the article, I used the following already existing articles as reference points from two other competitors to ensure uniformity in the topic area.
I believe after review of these accepted articles in comparison, you'll find the article I created (and have continued to expand on since first created) far exceeds that standards of these two accepted articles. My intent is to continue to expand the references and content as time permits and as is the desire of the project, create something worthwhile for others to edit as well. As such, I would respectfully request you remove your proposal to delete. (Surtom (talk) 02:02, 14 September 2014 (UTC))
- You would have been better off choosing different articles as templates: both are poorly-sourced, while the second article is just poor all around. That said, I looked over your added references and most of it is trivial. The only reliable independent source offering significant coverage is a Flex piece commemorating her winning the magazine's own "Rookie of the Year" title, which seems a bit self-serving. But that brings me to a problem I should have originally mentioned: Haldeman has not won anything notable. Hendershott, for example, has won two notable international competitions to claim notability. Haldeman has nothing comparable, thus failing WP:ANYBIO in addition to WP:BASIC. She's a run-of-the-mill competitor. Mbinebri talk ← 14:46, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Health and fitness-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:07, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:07, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
- Keep - Some of the sources aren't reliable but some are, and I think that there is enough news reports and other reliable, independent, secondary sourcing to establish notability. -- NickGibson3900 Talk 05:45, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
- Personally, I think the coverage is the routine/trivial kind from the (at best borderline?) sources that bodybuilders get as a byproduct of just being on the professional circuit and does not establish notability. Mbinebri talk ← 14:46, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
- I wouldn't disagree that the sport and it's athletes do not receiving the same level of online or news coverage that other sports such as American Football, Baseball, Basketball or Soccer receive, but it is a sport that does have a fully vetted amateur and professional league with bylaws now referenced in the article. I also don't disagree that using the two templates I began with, in comparing them to other professional athletes, leaves a lot to be desired. But I think you can also see, I have taken the time and made the effort to continually improve it over time. That would be my intent going forward with it as well. Finally, as for not winning anything "notable". She has won 3 major shows (2102 Junior Nationals overall and back to back wins in 2013 in Tampa and Tahoe) as well as placing top 5 in the IFBB's premier event at the Olympia 2 years running, while only having competed for 3 years total (only 2 years as a professional) says a lot for her potential as a new star in the sport. Hendershott didn't win a 2nd time, after winning her first show in 1999, for another 6 years. My bottom line with the article is, she is a notable person within her sport and as such, deserves an article as much as any other listed under List of female fitness & figure competitors and much more so than many of them. I also am committed to improving the article over time and as it does, I'm sure others interested will also add their edits to it as well. (70.196.3.140 (talk) 02:48, 15 September 2014 (UTC))
- Further research on the basis of being notable under the guidelines referenced also point to the following facts. Under WP:ATHLETE, there is no notability criteria listed for the sport of bodybuilding specifically (maybe there should be), but in looking at all other sports, a recurring point is noted again and again - “Having either appeared or competed in a sanctioned event for the sport”; not only when winning the premier event sanctioned by those bodies, as it is stated earlier, is it a requirement to be known as being notable. It is understood that for fitness and figure competitions, those sanctioning bodies are at the professional level, the IFBB and within the United States at the amateur level, the NPC. To that end, if there were a section for being a notable person in her chosen sport, she’d far exceed that standard at both the professional and amateur level. As she is also a fitness model, with numerous published photo shoots that are easily found across the Internet (although they weren't listed as references), one criteria for being notable under WP:ENT and WP:NMODEL is that "they have a large fan base or cult following". The subject of the article in question currently has well over 265,000 likes on her Facebook IFBB fan page and almost 5,000 regular followers on her Twitter account as an IFBB Professional. This I think more than qualifies as having met that criteria. Now, I would cite that the WP:ATHLETE does not list such criteria, but I note it as I also believe it clearly shows she is a notable person in her sport and her chosen professions, including fitness modeling. (70.196.3.140 (Surtom (talk) 19:44, 15 September 2014 (UTC))
- Just to make sure, you and the previous IP are the same person, right, Surtorn? Anywho, your "having appeared or competed..." quote does not appear in WP:ATHLETE as a general principle. Rather, select sports reference "sanctioned" events in their specific guidelines, but as you note, bodybuilding competitions are not included at all as a sport. (Is it even a sport?) Can we just apply other sports' criteria to bodybuilding competitions? I'm not so sure, given that many of these sports garner so much coverage that merely being in them can imply notability, while bodybuilding competitions remains low-profile to the point that anything short of winning an international event seems nonnotable and non-coverage-getting. As to Haldeman's accomplishments, it seems to me she has won a junior event, two regional events, and has twice finished as a finalist in a "figure" subcategory at the Olympia events with 15+ others. Your reference to her top-five finishes at Olympia is a bit misleading. Ms. Olympia is the premier title for female bodybuilding at Olympia and Haldeman has not been even a finalist for that. As for WP:ENT, her number of Facebook likes and Twitter followers are actually rather unimpressive and really not much of an argument. Mbinebri talk ← 19:58, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
- First yes, please forgive me as with that minor edit, I wasn't signed in and didn't realize it, so immediately went back in and corrected it and resigned it. Please accept my apologies for that. As to your questions, let me try to explain the equivalency in the sport to others, certainly not apples to apples, but to make a comparison, you have to draw it from some place. Her achievement in becoming a professional can only come at winning certain NPC"Pro qualifying" shows each year designated by the IFBB, the top of these being the Junior Nationals. So, where some qualify as a professional by winning one of the other amateur pro qualifying shows, she qualified as a professional by winning the top amateur show in the United States. Think of it like winning the US Nationals in Figure Skating. Another comparison to draw is on the other 2 shows she won. In the IFBB, you must qualify to even compete in the Olympia. Three ways to do that - either place in the top 5 the year prior (which is how she qualified in 2013 after placing top 5 in 2012), making that a notable event in her career, by winning a National Show that provides automatic qualification to the Olympia (both the Tahoe and Tampa shows are two of those National shows) and finally through a qualification system of points, based on top finishes in other qualifying shows and then accumulating enough points to attain one of the top point gatherers in that qualification year (which is how she achieved an invite in 2012). As for placing top 5 two years in a row at the Olympia itself, that's a rare feat in the sport in of itself and her doing it 2 years running (in her 1st two years as a pro) once again qualifies as a significant event in any career of a professional in the sport. Of course, if WP:ATHLETE had a section denoting necessary achievements for fitness and figure competitions, none of this discussion would be required. I for one would be happy to work with anyone on adding such a section. But I still contend, within her sport, she certainly is a notable figure worthy of an article and also has a sufficient fan base within the sport and in social media to back that up. She also is a sponsored GNC (store) athlete and represents that company at shows she does not compete in as well as promoting their products at Health and Fitness Expos throughout the country. As I'm sure you can understand, a major corporation like that would not provide a sponsorship contract to an athlete if their notoriety and association with their product wasn't to their business benefit. Although not a criteria to qualifying someone as being "notable", that additional fact also supports my case. She also is sponsored by smaller companies, but GNC (store) believes enough in her ability to promote their products that she was signed by them as one of their GNC Athletes. I hope all these explanations and clarifications on my part would help to serve that she is in fact a notable person and worthy of an article. (Surtom (talk) 23:27, 15 September 2014 (UTC))
- Forgive me, I did forget to address one of your last comments. The Ms Olympia competition is just one of the events annually at the Olympia competition, there is also the Mr Olympia, Fitness Olympia and Figure Olympia competitions. She placed top 5 in 2012 and 2013 in the Figure Olympia competition as a professional figure athlete. Also wanted to clarify and clear that up (Surtom (talk) 23:37, 15 September 2014 (UTC))
- To give a brief response because it's late... an issue I have is that, from just a bit of watching a Mr. Olympia event, bodybuilding competitions are quite obviously a form of pageantry, not a sport. There's no athletic ability involved. Rather, you pose on a stage and your physique is judged in the hopes of winning a pageant-esque title. I also question the notability of two top-five placements. A quick glance at Ms. Olympia makes it seem like repeatedly winning the whole shebang—let alone just high placements in a subcategory—is actually quite common. Mbinebri talk ← 04:38, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
- But that is one of the beauty of sports, both in participation and following it - not all sports are for everyone. Looking at WP:Athlete I personally would question Badminton as a sport establishing notability. I played it when I was 7 and probably will once again when I'm 70. But to those that either compete in those events, or follow the sport, it is in fact a sport. It has rules, sanctioning bodies, qualification requirements and differing levels of ability. Another might be sumo wrestling for those same reasons. So, one could make an argument whether this sport or that sport is in fact, worthy of being a sport, but that's merely because they don't follow it or aren't interested in following it. But to those that do, it is very much, a sport. Also, NBC is televising the Olympia competition, so to invest dollars in broadcasting it, also shows to even the most discerning, that it does hold an interest to the viewing public. Now, one final point specifically to the IFBB Figure Division in which she competes. It was first recognized and established in 2003 (11 years ago) by the IFBB and has since produced about 45 professionals a year (meaning around 500 if my math is correct) through it's qualification processes worldwide. As such, being one of those 500, she again is notable to those in the sport or those that follow it. As with most any sport, rising to the top of it is only accomplished by a very few. Literally each year, 1000s of women enter shows big and small throughout the world, as it is an International sport, and only those 45 or so become a pro. With that, the actual competition pool to reach the Figure Olympia (qualifying for it) are then down to about 15. So, to say the same seem to win and then making it in the top 5 doesn't seem noteworthy, I would disagree based on that information alone. Only the elite of the Figure Division of the IFBB make it to that level. So for her, it shows she is in fact notable in the fact that in 2+ years of being a pro, she's qualified for that sport's the pinnacle competition each year and has, and through her top 5 finish last year, again qualified to compete again later this fall. Whether you believe it to be a sport or not, that's your opinion and I won't question that because that's how you feel about it much like I don't think badminton is either. But the fact remains it is; by every guideline laid out for the establishment any sport, in by laws with professional and amateur ranks, having a worldwide participatory and fan following base, having news coverage, as well as television coverage. Specifically to her, within the IFBB's Figure Division, she is established as a notable athlete and elite competitor. This discussion shouldn't really be about whether Bodybuilding and fitness and figure competitions are in fact a sport (as they are both well established topics on Wikipedia), but rather whether she is notable within that sport. I believe the article establishes that with quantifiable references of her accomplishments to date and through our cordial discussions here, I have provided additional explanations I believe to back that up. (Surtom (talk) 11:11, 16 September 2014 (UTC))
- Again, on a side note, I'd like to again offer my assistance in establishing proper criteria in WP:Athlete for the sport of body building and in particular the fitness and figure competitions. I'm not certain if that article is in fact, open to free editing that would allow me to do it on my own, or if it needs some form of coordination in which I could provide assistance. I believe, if that were established, this discussion would not be necessary, nor what I'm sure are countless others that revolve around the same subject over notability of competitors in the sport. Like everyone here, my aim is to make this all a better place to foster contributions and legitimate content. Not having that for this particular subject matter must certainly cause this to occur again and again. (Surtom (talk) 12:14, 16 September 2014 (UTC))
- Ugh... You really need to keep the responses shorter. People always skip discussions that look like novels. Mbinebri talk ← 12:54, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
- I do apologize sincerely and really have no more factual information to provide to the discussion, but it seems this is all based on your feelings on whether bodybuilding is a sport, not whether or not this person is a notable figure within it. (Surtom (talk) 13:45, 16 September 2014 (UTC))
- The person going on at-length over whether this is a sport or not is you, not me. Either way, WP:ATHLETE doesn't include it. But my basic argument remains the same: Haldeman's notability claim is undermined by trivial sourcing (my original point) and the lack of notable wins (my second point) in a sport/pageant that receives little coverage. Mbinebri talk ← 15:38, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
- To your 1st point - since it was made, I have added sufficient content to the article of outside sources and references that I believe now counter that point. To yuor 2nd, my belief it is made on solely your personal opinion of it being a "pageant" where it is federated by an International Professional Association based in Spain and a Amateur Organization based in the US, of which she's won 2 major professional shows and the top amateur show she could compete in, all outlined inf acts presented here and referenced in the article. So, without WP:Athlete having facts to the contrary, I believe the criteria for her being notable has been clearly established (Surtom (talk) 20:24, 16 September 2014 (UTC))
- The person going on at-length over whether this is a sport or not is you, not me. Either way, WP:ATHLETE doesn't include it. But my basic argument remains the same: Haldeman's notability claim is undermined by trivial sourcing (my original point) and the lack of notable wins (my second point) in a sport/pageant that receives little coverage. Mbinebri talk ← 15:38, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
- I do apologize sincerely and really have no more factual information to provide to the discussion, but it seems this is all based on your feelings on whether bodybuilding is a sport, not whether or not this person is a notable figure within it. (Surtom (talk) 13:45, 16 September 2014 (UTC))
- Ugh... You really need to keep the responses shorter. People always skip discussions that look like novels. Mbinebri talk ← 12:54, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
- Again, on a side note, I'd like to again offer my assistance in establishing proper criteria in WP:Athlete for the sport of body building and in particular the fitness and figure competitions. I'm not certain if that article is in fact, open to free editing that would allow me to do it on my own, or if it needs some form of coordination in which I could provide assistance. I believe, if that were established, this discussion would not be necessary, nor what I'm sure are countless others that revolve around the same subject over notability of competitors in the sport. Like everyone here, my aim is to make this all a better place to foster contributions and legitimate content. Not having that for this particular subject matter must certainly cause this to occur again and again. (Surtom (talk) 12:14, 16 September 2014 (UTC))
- But that is one of the beauty of sports, both in participation and following it - not all sports are for everyone. Looking at WP:Athlete I personally would question Badminton as a sport establishing notability. I played it when I was 7 and probably will once again when I'm 70. But to those that either compete in those events, or follow the sport, it is in fact a sport. It has rules, sanctioning bodies, qualification requirements and differing levels of ability. Another might be sumo wrestling for those same reasons. So, one could make an argument whether this sport or that sport is in fact, worthy of being a sport, but that's merely because they don't follow it or aren't interested in following it. But to those that do, it is very much, a sport. Also, NBC is televising the Olympia competition, so to invest dollars in broadcasting it, also shows to even the most discerning, that it does hold an interest to the viewing public. Now, one final point specifically to the IFBB Figure Division in which she competes. It was first recognized and established in 2003 (11 years ago) by the IFBB and has since produced about 45 professionals a year (meaning around 500 if my math is correct) through it's qualification processes worldwide. As such, being one of those 500, she again is notable to those in the sport or those that follow it. As with most any sport, rising to the top of it is only accomplished by a very few. Literally each year, 1000s of women enter shows big and small throughout the world, as it is an International sport, and only those 45 or so become a pro. With that, the actual competition pool to reach the Figure Olympia (qualifying for it) are then down to about 15. So, to say the same seem to win and then making it in the top 5 doesn't seem noteworthy, I would disagree based on that information alone. Only the elite of the Figure Division of the IFBB make it to that level. So for her, it shows she is in fact notable in the fact that in 2+ years of being a pro, she's qualified for that sport's the pinnacle competition each year and has, and through her top 5 finish last year, again qualified to compete again later this fall. Whether you believe it to be a sport or not, that's your opinion and I won't question that because that's how you feel about it much like I don't think badminton is either. But the fact remains it is; by every guideline laid out for the establishment any sport, in by laws with professional and amateur ranks, having a worldwide participatory and fan following base, having news coverage, as well as television coverage. Specifically to her, within the IFBB's Figure Division, she is established as a notable athlete and elite competitor. This discussion shouldn't really be about whether Bodybuilding and fitness and figure competitions are in fact a sport (as they are both well established topics on Wikipedia), but rather whether she is notable within that sport. I believe the article establishes that with quantifiable references of her accomplishments to date and through our cordial discussions here, I have provided additional explanations I believe to back that up. (Surtom (talk) 11:11, 16 September 2014 (UTC))
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NorthAmerica1000 00:38, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
- Keep - Article well structured with sufficient sources to denote reliable, independent references, as well as secondary sources and news coverage to establish notability for the article's subject. (Thebookmkr (talk) 12:33, 23 September 2014 (UTC))
- — Thebookmkr (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Comment: Are there are standards for notability of bodybuilders and does she meet them? Most of the cites in the article seem sketchy, but some suggest merit. Best I can tell her claim for notability is "winning the 2012 National Physique Committee Junior National Championships by winning 1st place in her Figure Class and being named overall winner of the Figure Competition." Is that notable?--Milowent • hasspoken 21:27, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
- There are no notability standards for bodybuilders unfortunately. Whether those wins make her notable is part of the lengthy debate above. I say no, Surtom says yes. Mbinebri talk ← 12:58, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
- I don't disagree with Mbinebri , with such notability standards set, this would not have been an issue one way or the other. Although I think the article has been improved since first marked for possible deletion (Surtom (talk) 01:28, 2 October 2014 (UTC))
- There are no notability standards for bodybuilders unfortunately. Whether those wins make her notable is part of the lengthy debate above. I say no, Surtom says yes. Mbinebri talk ← 12:58, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.