Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of West Coast Conference Men's Basketball Tournament Finals broadcasters

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was No consensus on some, redirect most. For most of these articles, consenus appears to be that WP:NLIST is not met, except for four where Mrschimpf has made uncontested claims of coverage (unless Bgredmchn's last comment was meant to be a contestation, but I have some difficulty in reading what was said there); no consensus on these four. I am a little unsure whether "2018 Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference finals announcers" refers to one of the articles in question, however. As for the others, it seems like the main question is whether any of the information is worth merging over; some people have raised the concern that WP:UNDUE and some infobox-related rules would be violated (WP:FANCRUFT has also been cited, but that is an essay). It seems like "redirect" is probably the best solution, to reflect both the consensus that the lists ought to go and to allow for easy copying if it's determined that the material is useful anywhere. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 09:16, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

List of West Coast Conference Men's Basketball Tournament Finals broadcasters

[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Fails WP:LISTN, with lack of independent, reliable sources that discuss this grouping. A merge seems WP:UNDUE, as games are about the teams participating and not worth inundating with minutiae like this. Previous consensus at similiar AfD Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Pacific-12 Conference Men's Basketball Tournament Finals broadcasters was to delete. —Bagumba (talk) 17:32, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Adding the following similar articles to the nom, all of which were created in the same batch and lack substantive sources for TV Guide listings:

Also noting merge decision at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Atlantic Sun Men's Basketball Tournament Finals broadcasters. So many events of all sorts are televised, and while it may be relevant to provide the network on the main article, it becomes trivial to have such routine information in forked lists. Reywas92^Talk 07:51, 25 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment As original nominator, I also support the deletion of these pages.—Bagumba (talk) 07:14, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Basketball-related deletion discussions. —Bagumba (talk) 17:32, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 17:45, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Radio-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 17:45, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 17:45, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 17:46, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Too specific listcruft without significant coverage treating this as a subject as a whole. Reywas92^Talk 18:04, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Are we to AfD the other 31 article lists with similar titles, or is there a distinct difference with this one? Brian (talk) 22:08, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good to me! They were created in a batch by one now-blocked editor. Reywas92^Talk 07:51, 25 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Notifying participants of related AFDs: @Editorofthewiki, Cubbie15fan, The Bushranger, Rikster2, Dirtlawyer1, Cbl62, Fram, Prisencolin, X96lee15, and Presidentman: Reywas92^Talk 22:15, 25 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment After seeing the above discussion, the List of Atlantic Sun Men's Basketball Tournament Finals broadcasters is probably the only one that was merged and redirected four years ago. Could that be done with these 32 articles? Brian (talk) 00:05, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Bgredmchn: I stated the following in the nomination: A merge seems WP:UNDUE, as games are about the teams participating and not worth inundating with minutiae like this. Regards.—Bagumba (talk) 08:25, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It wasn't WP:UNDUE four years ago with the Atlantic Sun, which with these being AFD'd, would make that conference be different from all the rest. Brian (talk) 14:47, 27 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like consensus changed since the AfD you cited. While Rikster2 and Editorofthewiki !voted merge in that Nov 2015 Atlantic Sun AfD, they later !voted to delete in the Jan 2016 Pac-12 AfD.—Bagumba (talk) 04:40, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Where are we on WP:IGNORINGATD? The fact that a topic is not notable is not, in and of itself, valid grounds for deleting a page, its content, or its history. If merger and/or redirection is feasible in a given case, either is preferable to deletion. I still feel they are feasible for a merge over deletion, to the point that I'm sure more reliable sources are out there, no one has really tried to find them. Brian (talk) 18:57, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Merge The information in these articles is better served as part of their parent articles. Brian (talk) 14:47, 27 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Bgredmchn: Understood about your previous point above, but consensus can change from that past AfD. With all due respect to WP:PRESERVE, can you explain why you believe it would be WP:DUE to include?—Bagumba (talk) 00:08, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Bagumba: There isn't much to say towards WP:DUE, only that most people actually watch the games on TV than attend them, it's plausible to at least have the names of the broadcasters I've been listening to for two hours. If it's just about the teams participating, we should also remove instances of networks altogether. It's not about who pays the most to air the most games, or the biggest fan interest ones, but the teams playing. Brings up this point, {{Infobox NCAA Basketball Conference Tournament}} has no area to edit for announcers, only networks. {{Infobox NCAA football yearly game}} has an announcers section, AND ratings. There are plenty of pages in college football for announcers, and while I agree they don't meet WP:SAL, it could be as easy as editing a template to allow broadcasters to be listed, and not have their own articles. Brian (talk) 01:59, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Merge all to parent articles if feasible with space, otherwise keep as valid split. The information should be somewhere. Ideally it should be in the parent article, but if that would cause it to be too long, I'm fine giving them their own. Smartyllama (talk) 17:10, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
keep as valid split: Spinouts are generally not exempt from meeting notability guidelines. Per the guideline WP:AVOIDSPLIT: "Editors are cautioned not to immediately split articles if the new article would meet neither the general notability criterion nor the specific notability criteria for their topic."—Bagumba (talk) 07:21, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete (preferably) or Merge, listcruft without the necessary notability. Fram (talk) 18:26, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- Scott Burley (talk) 02:15, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete All Stand alone lists do need RS and IS just like any other articles - see Wikipedia:Stand-alone lists. CASSIOPEIA^(talk) 06:50, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment re: cruft WP:FANCRUFT should not be merged into infoboxes; this only causes bloat. Per WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE: The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance. There is no guideline to preserve cruft via a merge. Per WP:ONUS: While information must be verifiable in order to be included in an article, this does not mean that all verifiable information must be included in an article.—Bagumba (talk) 07:49, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all but major conferences (ACC, Big Ten, Big 12, Big East, SEC) Those can at least be easily sourced and are major events for sports networks. The rest are all ESPN time-fillers who are staffed on an unknown basis (or with the sub-NIT tourneys, whoever accepts their contract), and sports broadcasting FANCRUFT. Nate • (chatter) 22:50, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Mrschimpf: I can just as easily find 2018 Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference finals announcers as I can the ACC via google. (https://maacsports.com/news/2018/2/27/2018-maac-mens-basketball-championship-game-to-air-on-espn.aspx) And I'm sure Jay Bilas, Sean McDonough and Bill Raftery do not fall into that "rest" category. Brian (talk) 23:23, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Bagumba: All MLB postseason infoboxes have announcers listed (2018 National League Division Series). They even go as far as radio announcers and even list umpires. Also for baseball, I direct you to (Category:Lists of Major League Baseball broadcasters) as well. All NCAA College Football bowl game infoboxes have announcers listed (2019 Rose Bowl). All NFL postseason {{Americanfootballbox}} has announcers listed (2018–19_NFL_playoffs#Wild_card_playoffs). NBA (direct you to Category:Lists of National Basketball Association broadcasters). Boxing, lots of major fights have a section in the article titled Broadcasting (Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs. Conor McGregor). NASCAR race report infoboxes have a section, and list broadcasters, networks, and even Nielsen ratings (2018 Daytona 500) and other articles (Category:Lists of NASCAR broadcasters). College Baseball has a section in the article titled Broadcast assignments (2018_NCAA_Division_I_Baseball_Tournament#Broadcast_assignments). NHL (direct you to Category:Lists of National Hockey League broadcasters). By your definition above, ALL of these are WP:FANCRUFT and the ones with them in the infoboxes violates WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. It just seems if we decide to delete these works, we will be setting a precedent. If college basketball can't list their announcers, why can these other sports? Per WP:NOCRUFT While the "cruft" label is often used for any or all things of perceived minor interest, it is worth considering carefully whether or not so-called "cruft" has potential. Brian (talk) 23:23, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment In the end, only bettors and fans of the schools care about the smaller tourneys, and those feel like the inane lists we've deleted involving 'List of Sunday Night Baseball games'. Press releases shouldn't be the final source for anything, and are unacceptable as the only sources for entire article, whereas the majors who are broadcast by ESPN, CBS and Raycom hardly have that issue. Nate • (chatter) 02:23, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Those are comparisons to different sports. Still, !voters will have to decide whether WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS is applicable or not here.—Bagumba (talk) 04:47, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Mrschimpf: There's actually seven power conferences (major), but most only mention power five, and the Big East isn't one of the five. And that's a pretty biased statement to make. So, perhaps we should just remove the Miami Marlins from Wikipedia since they aren't one of the "power" teams. Should be no reason to have five conferences have something the other 27 cannot have. Press releases shouldn't be the final source for anything, and are unacceptable as the only sources for entire article, whereas the majors who are broadcast by ESPN, CBS and Raycom hardly have that issue. Of those 27, the networks for the championship games, which this is the only broadcasters the articles pertain to, 25 conference championship games are covered this way: 8 by ESPN, 8 by ESPN2, 3 by CBS, 3 by CBSSN, 2 by ESPNU, and 1 by FOX (Big East). Not much different than the "majors". Brian (talk) 05:08, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.