Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jonathan Phillips (ice hockey)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was No consensus after two relists.(non-admin closure) Jax 0677 (talk) 17:07, 11 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Jonathan Phillips (ice hockey)

Jonathan Phillips (ice hockey) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Not seeing the sources needed to fulfill WP:GNG as all are of the WP:ROUTINE variety (maybe a few more routine mentions because of his status as captain). Fails WP:NHOCKEY by never playing in a high enough league. Was prodded and deleted before and nothing has really changed to indicate notability. Yosemiter (talk) 20:39, 20 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ice hockey-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 21:12, 20 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 21:12, 20 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 21:15, 20 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Speedy delete: CSD A7. Never passes WP:GNG or WP:NHOCKEY. AaronWikia (talk) 23:23, 21 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • @AaronWikia: pretty sure A7 cannot be applied as it has been prodded and de-prodded as well as playing professionally can be a "claim of significance". Yosemiter (talk) 00:54, 22 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Correct, declined as such. A7 is not about notability and the article contains enough claims of significance. Regards SoWhy 10:37, 22 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      • Speedy delete for a long time captain of a professional team and captain of a Division I nation is foolish and disingenuous.18abruce (talk) 23:25, 22 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep : Does indeed fail NHOCKEY, however for GNG I found the following [1], [2], [3], [4]. They are not great, but there are many more features on him in the yorkshire post and the sheffield star, both reliable sources I would say. If you have checked these already @Yosemiter: please respond with what I have missed, I trust your judgement.18abruce (talk) 23:25, 22 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • @18abruce: I did see them, but they probably are worth discussing (and perhaps I should have been more clear in my definition the nomination as "maybe a few more mentions"). They are certainly significant and in depth, but the issue (depending on interpretation of GNG) is whether they are independent. Both The Star and the Yorkshire Post are the local papers for his team, the Sheffield Steelers (with The Star being the Sheffield paper and Sheffield is a borough of Yorkshire). Some would consider this routine coverage as the local press are expected to cover the local team and its important players, of which Phillips is the leader of the team as captain and goal scorer. (This interpretation is why we usually discount most college, high school, and minor league athletes.) As it is a bit open to interpretation, if others feel these articles indicate GNG, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. But then the article would need to be greatly improved from what it is now. Yosemiter (talk) 01:59, 23 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Yosemiter: Very fair point, interested what others think, I had not considered that the sources would not be viewed as independent. Hopefully see what others have to say, his was a name I knew from following hockey so I kind of assumed there would be more. Refreshing to have an AFD discussion based on evidence isn't it?18abruce (talk) 18:41, 23 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• I haven't heard the argument that local newspapers are not independent, by virtue of being based in the same city or region as the subject before. I'd be more inclined to dismiss them as routine local coverage than as not independent. Cordless Larry (talk) 04:28, 25 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• @Cordless Larry:, you might be correct. WP:ROUTINE never really specifies what part of GNG it violates. But I always interpreted it as "a source that would not be expected to cover the subject due to proximity and its local media market/target audience" (quotes are mine) in the same vein as WP:MILL. Yosemiter (talk) 04:57, 25 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment : I retracted my vote, not prepared to vote delete either, thought it was a weak case in the beginning and have further doubts now.18abruce (talk) 15:15, 30 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep as meeting WP:GNG, with plenty of local coverage plus at least one BBC and one Mirror article. Cordless Larry (talk) 04:31, 25 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do you mind linking the BBC and Mirror articles. I only found routine mentions from those sources, nothing in depth but maybe I missed something. Yosemiter (talk) 04:57, 25 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Done. The Mirror article is rather brief, but the sheer number of local articles does it for me. Cordless Larry (talk) 05:11, 25 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: I'm not registering a formal vote to avoid any notion of canvassing, because Yosemiter asked me to take a look in on these sources, stating that he'd withdraw the AfD if I agreed they were good sources. Nonetheless, I'd really like people to take a look at them again, because they're almost embarrassingly bad sources. The GNG requires that a subject receive "significant coverage" (emphasis in the original), and WP:ROUTINE holds that they not involve routine sports coverage. So let's look at the ones mentioned in this AfD.

  [5] is pretty pathetically short; the "article" is all of 86 words long, including the photo caption, half of which is a quote from the subject.

  The Mirror cite [6]: "Skipper Jonathan Phillips has signed a new deal at Sheffield three days after leading them to the Elite League play-off crown. The GB star is the first of the Steelers' trophy winning squad to commit to next season. Phillips said: "It was the easiest decision of my life coming back."" is the entire damn thing.

  [7] is a likewise fleeting piece that mentions the subject as having been named with two other players to be captains.

  Even if the Yorkshire Post cite wasn't another embarrassingly short one at 58 words, it identifies the subject as an online columnist for the paper, completely debarring the Post as an independent source supporting the subject's notability.

  [8] consists solely of quotes from the subject, which cannot be used to bolster the notability of the subject.

  [9] is the closest of the six to a reliable source, at least if it wasn't all again quotes from the subject and was a very short piece, but at least it's nominally about the subject.

  Nothing I've seen so far, however, is what I'd call a GNG-qualifying cite, and that's a problem. If there were thirty more sources of such poor quality, I wouldn't be moved; 0+0+0+0+0 still equals zero. Ravenswing 06:23, 26 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Ravenswing, I take routine sports coverage to be team sheets, scores, basic match reports and such like. I think that the available local and regional coverage goes further than that. Take this, for example, or this. I agree about the BBC and Mirror sources being pretty poor - I shouldn't have mentioned them in retrospect, but wanted to highlight that there was some national coverage. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:08, 26 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• The Sheffield Telegraph is a local weekly, although that cite is closer to valid than anything anyone's yet served up. I already stated why the Yorkshire Post is not an independent source, since the subject is a columnist for it. Ravenswing 01:17, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Without wanting to stray into WP:OTHERSTUFF territory, it occurs to me that if Phillips is judged not to be notable, then that is probably true of all other players in the Elite Ice Hockey League, who have not played in more prestigious leagues. These players will fail WP:NHOCKEY and as the GB captain, he is likely closer to passing the GNG threshold than others. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:49, 30 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Cordless Larry: On the whole, most EIHL players definitely do not get enough coverage, even local, to pass GNG. Hence, the reason it is only listed in WP:NHOCKEY for player notability if they have won a major award. Most EIHL players I have nominated were deleted due to the failure to meet GNG (most had much, much less than Phillips). However, this particular subject is borderline to GNG and I think we could view this AfD as a test subject for editor's opinions on what constitutes the GNG in terms of significant depth sources when only found in local news. Yosemiter (talk) 16:35, 30 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.