Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gopiparadhana

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete The sources provided do not appear to meet the requirement of "significant coverage in third party sources," some of the "keep" arguments are not based on policy. Beeblebrox (talk) 03:27, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Gopiparadhana

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Non-notable religious leader. Ism schism (talk) 05:26, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions. —Ism schism (talk) 05:29, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This AfD nomination was incomplete (missing step 3). It is listed now. DumbBOT (talk) 16:36, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep for now This article is sourced, a Google search turns up additional possible sources, and many more might be found if searches for sources in another language (Hindi?) were performed. Ism schism, would you mind expanding your rationale for deletion? WP:JNN is considered an argument to avoid. A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 02:41, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Sure; the article is a BLP, so it has higher standards than other articles. The references used for this article are non reliable sources. Without reliable sources, this article should be deleted. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 17:10, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Taking that into consideration, I think the subject of this article meets WP:CREATIVE criteria #3 and #4, as his translations have been subject to significant critical attention, as documented in reliable sources. Keep.—Preceding unsigned comment added by A Stop at Willoughby (talk • contribs) 21:17, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You stated that the translations, "have been subject to significant critical attention, as documented in reliable sources." Where is the "significant critical attention" and where are the reliable sources. So far, there is a forward to a book the subject translated, and the other is a news article that mentions him in passing. This subject clearly does NOT meet WP:CREATIVE criteria #3 and #4, and as such the article should be deleted. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 21:29, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:43, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep He completed translation of the Bhagavata Purana (Srimad Bhagavatam). This translation has received quite a lot of reviews and is the most popular translation of this Purana. He also translated another major sanskrit text - Brihad-bhagavatamrita [1]. He works as a Sanskrit translator and editor for a leading publisher Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. He received coverage as such in this article [2]. He seems sufficiently notable to me.--Gaura79 (talk) 17:02, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Reply There are no reliable sources that attribute notability to this individual. As such, the indivudual is not notable. Please provide reliable sources if you feel that the subject is notable. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 15:10, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Timotheus Canens (talk) 01:48, 13 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Hinduism-related deletion discussions. -- -SpacemanSpiff 03:44, 13 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I added some references from The Miami Herald article. Below I provide an exerpt from a review of Gopiparanadhana and his translation of Sanskrit text Brihad Bhagavatamrita by Joseph T. O’Connell, Ph.D. Professor Emeritus, St. Michael’s College, University of Toronto. It was published as a foreword to the Brihad Bhagavatamrita BBT edition.

Excerpt from review of one of Gopiparadhana's translation. Click at right to show.

The present edition includes translations by Gopiparanadhana Dasa of both the basic poem and its commentary (plus appendices, glossary, etc.). This is an extraordinary labor of love! The Brihad-bhagavatamrita alone contains some 2,500 Sanskrit verses, each requiring painstaking care even when (wisely) being rendered into idiomatic English prose rather than metrical verse. The commentary is considerably longer and, although in Sanskrit prose, is far from easy to convey in readable accurate English. Yet the task has been done and done well, an impressive achievement indeed.
When I began to examine the proofs for this book, I was pleased to find that Gopiparanadhana Dasa’s English prose version reads clearly and crisply. Moreover, it conveys the excitement, wonder, and devotion of spiritual discovery that animates Sanatana’s own composition. The more I read, the more fascinated I became with Sanatana’s novel and brilliant retelling of themes emanating from the Srimad Bhagavata (but developed into much that is not found explicitly in that revered text). Depictions of progressively more intense and intimate modes of loving devotion build to a climax in the remarkable portrayal of Krishna at Dvaraka, depressed and anguished in absence from Radha and the gopis and restored to “normal” consciousness only by an artful ruse.
The further I read, the less was I conscious that I was reading a translation, so naturally does one unit of the narrative flow into the next. When I did shift to the task of comparing portions of the translation with the Sanskrit, I was pleased to discover that the English prose is indeed very faithful to the Sanskrit original. One might quibble over the choice of certain idiomatic English phrases, but even these convey the basic sense. From the literal meaning of the original, little is left out, and very little is added, in the passage from Sanskrit to English. Inevitably, of course, some resonance is lost in any transition from poetic verse to prose translation. But, fortunately, because the Brihad-bhagavatamrita is mostly narrative and dialogue, it lends itself more readily to prose rendering than would other types of poetic verse. I would like to think that Sanatana Gosvami would welcome his modern prose translator as a kindred spirit and an able expositor of his work.
The Dig-darsini, being itself prose, but prose in the peculiar form of Sanskrit textual commentary, presents the translator with a different set of challenges. In size, it is twice the length of the document which it interprets. In form and function, it resembles the complex footnotes of modern scholarship. In orientation, it assumes broadly ranging acquaintance with traditional Vaisnava themes, Sanskrit religious literature, and technical points of devotional aesthetics, theology, and philosophy. Faced with such challenges, many a translator—and, if not he or she, then the publisher—would resort to a paraphrase that drastically cuts down the size and simplifies the scholarship of the commentary and perhaps introduces an ersatz ideological or rhetorical interpretation in place of the more demanding and sophisticated orientation of the author.
Not so the present translator and publisher. Both Gopiparanadhana Dasa and the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust are to be commended for respecting Sanatana’s auto-commentary as it is, in all its bulk and sophistication. The Brihad-bhagavatamrita and Dig-darsini together comprise a classic of religious literature whose integrity ought not be compromised. On a narrow scale, it is a classic in that it is the template for the theology and spiritual psychology that have remained authoritative for the Caitanya Vaisnava tradition. And though till now scarcely known beyond that tradition and those who study it, it is—or merits being so recognized—a classic on a global scale as well. Sanatana Gosvami’s chef d’oeuvre is a masterful exploration, grounded in Vaisnava devotional faith, of human spirituality and religious psychology, for the first time being made accessible in its entirety to the English-reading world.
As the translator acknowledges, the English version of the Dig-darsini is a paraphrase, not a line-by-line translation. As such, it does not replace a close reading of the Sanskrit original for scholars equipped to do one. But, as the translator points out (and illustrates in the appendices), the paraphrasing is largely a matter of arrangement, not of selective excision or augmentation. From the portions of Volume One that I have compared closely, it is evident that Gopiparanadhana Dasa has managed to retain virtually all of the content of the original commentary, though with considerable rearrangement to facilitate reading. Were it his aim to produce a rigorously literal English rendering, some of his paraphrasing of Sanatana’s formulations might well have to be revisited. But, all things considered, he has done an admirable job of conveying the informational content and spiritual verve of the author—without bowdlerizing or truncating—in an idiom understandable to patient and attentive (though not necessarily expert) readers. I presume that the level attained in Volume One has been maintained through Volumes Two and Three.
There is a special significance to this publication over and above its making accessible to readers of English a Sanskrit classic of spiritual literature. This is the first publication by the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust of a major Vaisnava theological text which disciples of the late Swami A. C. Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada have accomplished without his immediate presence. It follows the widely disseminated versions of the Bhagavad-gita in many languages and multi-volume translations of the Srimad Bhagavata Purana and the Caitanya-caritamrita, each of which is accompanied by an elaborate commentary. These prior publications were substantially the work of Prabhupada himself, with certain of his Sanskrit-trained devotees, including Gopiparanadhana Dasa, serving as apprentices. The appearance of the Brihad-bhagavatamrita thus marks a new phase of textual theological scholarship by members of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. They have, as it were, come into their maturity as responsible for faithful transmission of the Caitanya Vaisnava tradition of prema-bhakti, loving devotion to God Krishna. What better way to assure fidelity to the words and spirit of Caitanya Mahaprabhu and his circle of immediate disciples than to enable devotees and attentive seekers to read, hear, and visualize the foundational texts of those very scholar-devotees who had experienced the charismatic presence of Krishna-Caitanya himself!

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Gaura79 (talk • contribs)

Can someone sign this huge blurb? -- (User) Mb (Talk) 11:40, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I did so on behalf of Gaura70 (see above). A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 21:17, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete -- Being a translator of works does not justify inclusion. Obviously there will be some reviews of his work, but it is not essential. Essential that he is a translator, and just being a translator is not a sufficient reason for inclusion in Wikipedia. I guess you both work for the same company: him and Gaura, thus you are anxious to keep him on. -- (User) Mb (Talk) 11:40, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The sources added do not review of the person at hand. He is only mentioned as part of a larger project. This does not make him notable. Nothing point to him being a notable translator, if that is the claim. As is, the article should be deleted. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 18:49, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, I presented a reliable source which addresses him directly and in detail.--Gaura79 (talk) 20:13, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - The above "reliable source" is a part of the forward to a book this individual translated. That still does not make this individual notable, although the original text may be. Do you have any reviews from notable Sanskrit, Religion, or South Asian Studies journals? Those would work, but none exist. As is, the article is still about a person who translated a notable book - that does not make the translator notable by association. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 21:12, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment While the Brihad Bhagavatamrita may be a notable text; this individual's translation of it is not. This translation is not a notable text in itself, nor is the translator Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 22:51, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete ~~for now~~: WP:ONESOURCE (1 article in Miami Herald) and all other sources are ISKCON (BBT) sites, writing about an author of a BBT book (most publishers do that to sell their books). Though Brihat Bhagavatamrita is notable, but notability of the translation outside ISKCON is questionable. There are several translations of the Gita, not each one is notable as of Prabhupada or Ramakrishan. I am willing to change the vote if notability is proved by more non-ISKCON (non-BBT) references. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 02:53, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Note that the second reference provided by me is not a "BBT reference". It is a scholarly review of Gopiparanadhana's work. The fact that it was published in a BBT book does not make it BBT reference. His Brihad Bhagavatamrita translation is the first and the only full translation of this work into English, and it has received a positive review from a specialist in the field. --Gaura79 (talk) 10:42, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lets be practical, if scholar X gives a unfavourable review of book A, book A is not going to print X's opinion. Forwards do sell books and can not be regarded as an unbiased review of a book. Also, the first few lines of Miami Herald (that is all I can read in the link, full article not available) seem to suggest the article is about ISKCON in general. Correct me, if I am wrong.--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 12:48, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Miami Herald article is about ISKCON in general, with Gopiparanadhana receiving only some coverage in it. But a scholarly review is a scholarly review, no matter where it was published. The problem here, as you mentioned above, is WP:ONESOURCE. The subject of the article received coverage only in one source, which generally is not enough for a standalone article. I suggest merging the article with Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. Your thoughts?--Gaura79 (talk) 15:17, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Forewords in general are not independent sources and are arranged by the author. (User) Mb (Talk) 13:26, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Merging in Bhaktivedanta Book Trust will be an WP:UNDUE. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 16:20, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What I meant is to include only a limited information on him in relation with the books he translated and edited for the BBT.--Gaura79 (talk) 18:01, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, limited information can be merged into BBT if a section on all BBT authors is written. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 02:22, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Also taking into consideration his position in ISKCON's Governing Body, I think he deserves a standalone article on Wiki.--Gaura79 (talk) 14:05, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep -- the guy is the top shot in GBC Sastric Advisory committee, the group of selected knowledgeble brahminical advisors. [3] From it's inseption so far as I know. Wikid ^as© 03:24, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Reply As this is a BLP, please provide reliable sources. If none are provided, then the article should be deleted. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 00:28, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Minutes of the Governing Body Comission are a reliable primary source, regardless where it is cited. Are you disputing that Gopiparanadhana is a key member of GBC SAC? Or that it does not exist?[4] [5] He is also the author of the Foreword to Surender Unto Me for example, a study material of the Vaishnava Insitute of Higher Education, also used in Bhaktivedanta College and referenced in Vedabase, not nessesarly notable, but interesting to note.[6], the website of Iskcon Ministry of Education calles him: "one of ISKCON's most renowned devotee-scholars, Gopiparanadhana Prabhu" [7]. There is a lot of work for the article to become decent or good, but the subject itself is quite notable. Wikid ^as© 00:43, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Reply How is this "Sastric Advisory committee" notable? And, how is being a member of this committee make one notable? Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 01:17, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Reply -- Governing Body Commission is notable, and this person is Notable -- there are more than WP:ONESOURCE as per sources above. Being a guru, besides being an advisor to GBC is also notable. Sources for the article need further improvement. Wikid ^as© 13:11, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Reply I agree with Cunard's articulate statement, below, on why this article should be deleted. Do you have any response to the lack of reliable sources? If not, the article should be deleted. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 18:58, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per the lack of significant coverage in reliable sources. At the moment, the article presents nine references; however none of them are sufficient. I have analyzed and listed the sources in the article as of this revision:

Analysis of the sources in the article

1. This article from the Miami Herald is insufficient because it is not specifically about Gopiparadhana. From what I can see in the blurb, the article appears to be about Elliot Klein, an oceanfront condominium owner.
2. http://catalog.bbt.info/d_show_author.php?id=3&target_language=1 is insufficient because it does not appear to be a reliable source; neither does it appear independent of the subject.

3. http://www.iskconeducation.org/index.php?p=news&id=98 is insufficient because it is not a neutral, third-party source. The article begins with, "We are happy to announce that the fifth Bhagavata Sastri course at Govardhana is going to start in just 75 days from now ..." Furthermore, this article only mentions Gopiparadhana once.
4. http://www.krishna.se/Gopi.html does not appear to be a third-party, reliable source.
5. The subject's translation of Śrī Bṛhad-bhagavatāmrta does not serve to be a sufficient source that establishes notability.
6. This e-book that was translated by the subject does not establish notability.
7. http://www.krishnamedia.org/e-books/Mukunda_Mala_Stotra.pdf – same as #6.
8. Srmiadbhagavata.org is not a third-party source because it lists Gopiparadhana under the heading of "Who We Are / Teachers".
9. http://in.linkedin.com/pub/gopiparanadhana-dasa/10/971/21b – LinkedIn is not a reliable, third-party source because the content is user-generated and thus has not received the editorial fact-checking that reliable sources receive.

Translating books does not make an individual notable. Neither does being an advisor on a committee establish notability. Only significant coverage in reliable sources ensures an individual's notability. I do not see this here.

This article should be deleted for failing Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons, Wikipedia:Notability (people), and Wikipedia:Verifiability. Cunard (talk) 05:59, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep as a leader of ISKCON, roughly equivalent to a bishop. Bearian (talk) 02:10, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.