Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ferenc Csentery

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Secret account 23:22, 3 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ferenc Csentery

Ferenc Csentery (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
And also try: Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL and Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL --doncram

I see no indication the subject might meet WP:ARTIST, WP:BIO, WP:GNG or any other relevant policy. In terms of the sources provided, a one-line mention in a mimeographed circular from 1971 is, well, not evidence of notability. Neither is this (not sure what that is even supposed to prove), nor this, which mentions the subject not at all. In short, there's an utter lack of reliable sources about the subject, and so we should delete. - Biruitorul Talk 20:44, 8 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 20:56, 8 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Visual arts-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 20:56, 8 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 20:56, 8 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Thank you for your consideration. I would like to comply with requirements for inclusion under the WP:ARTIST policy; I understand if the currently included sources are not sufficient, and will work over the next weeks to cite sources with improved relevance and reliability.
The first source was to verify that he taught sculpture at Caltech during a critical period of technology development related to space exploration; CalTech is widely regarded as being the most important educational institution associated with the US space program, managing resources like JPL and the Observatory at Mt. Palomar.
The second URL, linking to the Hirshorn Museum collection page, is a searchable index of works in their permanent collection, to meet the requirements for WP:ARTIST item #4. There are two pieces by Ferenc Csentery listed in this major museum's collection:

Ferenc Csentery Aluminum, 14 1/2 x 27 1/4 x 9 1/2 in. (36.9 x 69.2 x 24.1 cm) Hirshhorn Museum and Sculpture Garden, Smithsonian Institution, Washington, DC, The Joseph H. Hirshhorn Bequest, 1981; Accession Number: 86.1282 Hirshhorn Museum and Sculpture Garden Collection

Ferenc Csentery Brushed aluminum and plexiglass, 30 x 17 x 17 3/4 in. (76.2 x 43.2 x 45.1 cm) BASE: 2 1/4 x 16 x 17 3/4 in. (5.7 x 40.6 x 45.1 cm) Hirshhorn Museum and Sculpture Garden, Smithsonian Institution, Washington, DC, The Joseph H. Hirshhorn Bequest, 1981; Accession Number: 86.1281 Hirshhorn Museum and Sculpture Garden Collection

While reviewing the final reference, I have realized that the artist's name on this document was cited as Czenze Ference in reference to the Revolution Monument in MacArthur Park. I will provide an updated reference for this shortly (LA Times news article) which correctly lists him as a contributor to this important monument in the largest public park in Los Angeles. AaronFinney (talk) 23:02, 8 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. It is a new article created about a person who just died. The article creator doesn't need to explain, but my guess is that the creator has some connection and knows about the significance of the person, and could have been prompted by announcement of a funeral or whatever. That is fine. The creator is not very much experienced in Wikipedia (not many contributions) and is working to bring this article into compliance. There can be no Biography of Living Persons (BLP) issues. Also, the subject of the article does strike me as notable, given he has two works in the prestigious Hirshhorn Museum and Sculpture Garden. Give the relative newbie a break, don't wp:BITE the newbie, and simply close this Keep. Revisit later, possibly, if it is not developed. To AaronFinney: Keep up the good work, glad you are on board. --doncram 00:09, 9 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - while I realize the article creator is a newcomer, that doesn't mean we shouldn't subject Csentery to scrutiny. In that spirit, let's drill further into the claims of notability.
  • It would have been one thing if he had been a tenured full professor; Csentery was a part-timer who taught one "generally unsuccessful" Sculpture course that ultimately only five students ended up completing, and was apparently fired after a year. WP:PROF-notable he was not.
  • Whatever role Csentere may have played in the Los Angeles monument's creation, the fact is that the man credited with its design is not Csentery but Árpád Domján.
  • The Hirshhorn presence is more intriguing, although that doesn't quite take us to the "represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums" standard set by WP:ARTIST.
  • I'm certainly willing to listen to claims made on behalf of Csentery's notability, and this discussion does run for a week, during which time conclusive evidence of notability can be adduced. However, at some point, WP:V will have to be met. It may sound as though Csentery is notable, but per our policies, we do need independent references that make it clear. - Biruitorul Talk 00:55, 9 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Your points noted, and i generally agree. I also want to note that since the person just died, it is possible that an obituary will soon appear in the Los Angeles Times or the Pasadena Star-Register(?) or other newspapers, which would go towards establishing notability. Also i am not immediately finding any Los Angeles Times coverage of the person, in the current search at LATimes website or in one newspaper literature search that I have access to. Perhaps i am searching badly. To the article creator, please do add the LATimes reference you mention. To the creator and to the eventual closer of this AFD, if it does turn out that insufficient evidence of notability is provided, perhaps the article could be "userfied" to the creator's space, to be edited there and submitted via wp:AFC process later. To the creator, if the article is deleted, you can definitely get a copy of it provided to you by email or somehow, by requesting that. I do hope references can be provided, but i myself am not immediately finding them. I still vote "Keep" as my best assessment however. --doncram 01:40, 9 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Seems like the artist was active in the 1960s and 1970s. On sources:
  • Per this info about a file at Smithsonian for Ferenc Csentery existing, someone could call the Smithsonian and seek info, what is in the file, are there significant news clippings etc. Librarians and museum staff are often very helpful.
  • this WorldCat item documents an exhibit at Cal Tech in 1970
  • some evidence of a Long Beach Art Museum exhibit, Seventh Annual Southern California something, in 1969
  • local newspaper The Vista Press mention of a juror's award in an art show for Ferenc, on page 5, in 1969
  • Artist's webpage at www.ferenccsentery.com could have been added as an external link to the article, but the website was closed a couple days ago.
  • Off-line sources are fine, they do NOT need to be internet-accessible. --doncram 02:01, 9 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I greatly appreciate the discussion and help, and I have a new level of respect for the diligence with which the WP maintainers approach this work. Many of Doncram's original assumptions were correct, and I do not mind disclosing some of those details. I am directly associated with the artist, who entrusted me with his portfolio of documents shortly before his death from cancer on November 7th. Ironically, his website went offline two days ago due to its maintainer also being hospitalized with what has been diagnosed as terminal cancer. As Doncram deduced, the creation of the article was prompted by my receiving news of his death - it was originally written in the present tense to give family and friends time to be notified as well, and modified shortly after. The process of writing the Wikipedia article has been incredibly educational and I will spend more time in the coming week learning about references; I do think that Biruitorul is absolutely correct that my inexperience as a contributor should have no bearing on whether Ferenc is determined to have met the WP criteria for inclusion as a notable person. Many of the references I have in my possession are simply newspaper clippings mounted to album pages, so I will need to do additional research to document these properly. I will be perfectly fine with whatever decision the WP maintainers make regarding keeping or deleting the article, especially since I've had the visibility into the thoughtfulness which has already gone into it.

-- AaronFinney (talk) 04:58, 9 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for sharing more, though you really don't have to, and for your helpful attitude. About the no-longer-posted webpage, i can see at the "Wayback Machine" copies of ferenccsentery.com that the main webpage was titled "Scrapbook 1962-2000" and consisted of 62 image-pages, but i can only see image-pages 1,2,3. Perhaps the album pages you have were made into those image-pages? But, a scrapbook in hard copy or webpage form is not an independently published work itself, and won't go far towards establishing notability probably. Included articles that were published in newspapers would count as published sources though. --doncram 05:35, 9 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The external reference which is included in the article, ferenccsentery.net, contains the core content from the site which is currently offline, including several of the aforementioned articles in image form. These include a review of a 1967 exhibition from noted art critic Arthur Millier in the Los Angeles Herald Examiner, a review of the same exhibition in the LA Times from art critic William Wilson, an LA Times article from a yet-unknown author reviewing his first one-man show, a Pasadena Star News article from art editor Larry Palmer reviewing his 1970 Caltech show, a detailed analysis of the artist and work by David Smith from a book published for the same 1970 Caltech show, and a 1974 article on Csentery in Artweek Magazine. I will attempt to properly document all of these sources in the coming week for the maintainers' consideration. --AaronFinney (talk) 06:29, 9 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oh, okay, i see now that the .net webpage works, in that a film covers scrapbook album pages with presumably Hungarian-language dirge sung/chanted presumably by the artist. The film can be started and stopped. Given the context, I accept fully that the articles included are what they appear to be...and note this would be impossible to put together from new research now, as little of it would be available online. It includes:
  1. At time marker 0:54: Los Angeles Times, June 9, 1967, "In the Galleries: First One Man Show for Ferenc Csentery", a favorable review of his show at Comora Gallery, and mentioning purchase of 2 items by Joseph H. Hirshhorn, describes his work as "evocative of space technology" and calls him "one of the most intriguing young sculptural talents on the local scene". This is very favorable, and the local scene is greater Los Angeles, a top market.
  2. At 1:45: Los Angeles Times, "In the Galleries: Campus Exhibition of Miniworks", by William Wilson, mentions one of four purchase prizes for Ferenc Csentery's "mysterious black pyramid screen enclosure".
  3. At 1:50: College Times review of same show, has a bit more about Csentery.
  4. At 2:06 (page 1) and 2:09 (page 2): All California Art Exhibition, 1968, at National Orange Show Grounds Art Gallery, Csentery's depicted piece "A Twist of Cube" wins apparently top prize in modern sculpture, First Prize - Modern Sculpture", selected by jury of notables, seems like a major prize.
  5. At 2:45: "Art Forms Bridge Gap at Caltech", Pasadena Star-News, January 21, 1970, by Larry Palmer, page B-1, positive review of 2 person show with big photo of the two artists, is significant coverage in a regional newspaper; CalTech news article following gives more detail on the opening.
  6. At 2:57: page 42 of album, and following pages 43, 44, 45, apparently a book(?) with useful info, that Csentery works at Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL): "Unlike many American artists, Csentery does not gain his livelihood by teaching. A precision welder and machinist of nearly infinite finesse, he works on components for JPL and the space program. He is, in other words, ideally placed to bring together certain aspects of..." various worlds. Byline is David Smith. Seems like major review, unclear what is the publication, but David Smith can probably be identified.
  7. At 3:15: LA Times playful photo of a Csentery work with a young woman, probably a Mount Sac Community College student, for an exhibit of 12 pieces by 12 artists at Mount Sac.
  8. At 3:22: Los Angeles Times, "Art Walk: A Guide to the Galleries", October 30, 1970, by Henry J. Seldis and William Wilson, leads off with favorable review blurb by HJS of Csentery show at Comora Gallery.
  9. At 3:25: Art Week coverage of Csentery exhibit at Brand Library in Glendale, "a show that should not be missed" I don't know what Art Week is, i suppose a regional art weekly magazine?
  10. Then numerous photos, following 4:19: "October 17, 2014 Photo shoot by Aaron and Clay Finney of sculpture lay-out" of works at "Ferenc Csentery Museum" at 26801 Crestview, Idyllwild, California. I like the photo at 4:47 and the work it depicts, and many others.... seems to be hundreds of works. Csentery was prolific. The location is in a residential neighborhood, perhaps is the artist's primary residence. No indication this is a museum open to the public. I am curious what is going to become of the large collection, but that is not for Wikipedia. There have been brilliant artists whose works were almost never sold in their lifetime, perhaps Vincent Van Gogh for one and some eastern European painter whose name I can't recall. If there is public documentation that a museum exists, even if it is a private museum and generally not open to the public, that would add to the article and help establish notability. Have there ever been tours of the museum, has it ever been included in a fundraising weekend tour like the annual tour of beautiful gardens of homes in Pasadena (see [http://hometown-pasadena.com/home-and-garden/open-days-garden-tour-pasadena/25424 this coverage of one year's garden tour)?
  • I stop watching at 10:00 out of 33 minute film, with film stuck on one image, perhaps i messed up the player somehow or perhaps the film plays out the soundtrack that way, i am not sure. To Aaron Finney, adding coverage information either in this AFD or in the article is fine in helping influence outcome of AFD; info shared here doesn't need already also to be in the article, which can be further developed later. (And also please see off-topic note at your Talk page). I think you have a collection of material that does establish Csentery's notability. I sorta hope the collection is opened somehow and the film is kept published on the internet and that there will be future obituary coverage and/or other retrospective coverage, but for me you've established notability already.
  • Also I find there is Pasadena Star-Tribune coverage, slightly garbled here: "The McBride Award for Oil, presented by the Pasadena Art Museum, was presented to Walter Askin for "Family". Douglas Bond was given the Past President's Award for his oil, "Dollie". and Ferenc Csentery was presented with the New Member's award for his aluminum sculpture "Unfilled A." Fittingly the museum is placing the padlock on its door with an exhibition by a group of local artists...." at hard to read newspaper archive page for June 10, 1969. Not clear if Pasadena Art Museum was then acquiring a Csentery work, or if it has since acquired any; it is a significant museum and if it or other regional museums did hold a Csentery work, that would help further establish notability.
Overall, I think Wikipedia would keep article on a new artist now, with comparable coverage, like if this artist's exhibitions and coverage were in 2013 rather than around 1970. And, notability is not temporary (wp:NTEMP). Doesn't meet wp:PROF, right, because he was not a professor, but seems to meet wp:ARTIST and/or the gold standard general guideline, wp:GNG. So I do solidly stay with "Keep" opinion. --doncram 17:19, 9 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - The Hirshhorn is the major American museum for sculpture. I've verified his works are in their collection. Bearian (talk) 20:06, 10 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - For the maintainers consideration, I have updated the article with specific citations and additional revisions/information. --AaronFinney (talk) 06:50, 12 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I would change my !vote but I need to see this article meet Wikipedia's inclusion criteria, which I think it can do. Someone provide 2-3 published sources of information which are about this artist. This could be an announcement that his work is featured, an interview with him, a critique of his style, or anything else with him as the subject and which was published anywhere. I am not seeing these kind of sources right now. If anyone needs more time to look, then ask for it, and perhaps instead of deleting this article, we could WP:USERFY the article for now if those sources are coming soon. Blue Rasberry (talk) 20:00, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hello, thank you for reviewing the article and afd discussion. There are sources cited in the article which I believe provide the information you're looking for, most notably citation #8, "Smith, David (1970). DRAWINGS AND GRAPHICS BY PAUL DARROW, SCULPTURE BY FERENC CSENTERY. California Institute Of Technology. Baxter Art Gallery". This is a published work from Caltech which contains a detailed profile of the artist - his early personal life, a discussion of his style (including specifics about technique and materials), and the philosophy behind his form - written by the founder of the Baxter Art Gallery at Caltech. Several of the newspaper articles and the Artweek magazine article do highlight his works as featured and/or award-winning within the exhibitions they were a part of. --AaronFinney (talk) 07:37, 15 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Doncram gives a good analysis of the article and there are sufficient reliable sources to establish WP:ARTIST #4. --I am One of Many (talk) 09:10, 15 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NorthAmerica1000 03:19, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NorthAmerica1000 10:20, 25 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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