Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Clay Duke

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to 2010 Panama City school board shootings. At first glance it seems clear that the consensus is to delete this article. However, most of the content has already been merged into 2010 Panama City school board shootings so the history of this article needs to be kept. Ron Ritzman (talk) 01:18, 24 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Clay Duke (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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Non-notable person ... classic one event. ^Bongo_matic 08:13, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. —WWGB (talk) 12:28, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. —WWGB (talk) 12:28, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. Had his 15 minutes of infamy, dismiss as WP:NOTNEWS and WP:PERPETRATOR. WWGB (talk) 12:03, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. It is just as notable as the columbine shooting or any other workplace/school shooting in recent decades. Vandersontx (talk —Preceding undated comment added 13:03, 16 December 2010 (UTC). Vandersontx (talk) 11:54, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Please provide a source stating this. He didn't manage to shoot one person except himself, unlike the Columbine or VT massacres. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 17:13, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• So what? Does Wikipedia decide what is or is not worthy based on the numerical body count? Ashershow1 (talk) 20:43, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• No, but the lack of a source stating that it was as notable as Columbine and the fact that there was only one fatality here (while many fatalities happens less often) means your claim is baseless. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 23:47, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep The number of fatalities is not the issue here. The issue is this man's motive for doing something like this. Walking in on a school board meeting and killing people is not something that happens every day, or even every year. If things had gone differently, 6 people may have died making this man undoubtedly notable. Wikipedia is not to set a precedent that the more people you kill the more notable you become. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashershow1 (talk • contribs) 21:55, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• There's such a thing as a source stating that a body count matters in the notability of an event? Fair enough. Going_postal#Baker_City.2C_Oregon.2C_in_2006. One person killed. A notable event included on Wikipedia. This also at the very least qualifies as a high profile Suicide_by_cop. Vandersontx (talk) 12:34, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not that it is particularly relevant or would make Duke any more notable but Suicide by cop means a person acts in such a manner as to try to ensure that a policeman fatally shoots that person. Duke shot himself! It was one of the schoolboard members whom Duke later shot at who suggested that Duke was looking to get killed by the cops; Duke made a reply which I couldn't hear clearly enough to decipher, but that's not the same thing. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 19:39, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not going to sit here and argue what does or does not constitute a suicide by cop since it would sidetrack this debate, but it does not necessarily have to be a death by the police. Duke, made several statements indicating he intended to have the police kill him and did not kill himself until he was struck by returned fire. Vandersontx (talk) 11:52, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Clay Duke walked in on a school board meeting, tried to shoot six people, and then shot himself in the head. Since when is that not Wikipedia-worthy? Duke was a front page news item, and if things had gone slightly differently, 6 men could have died. Does Wikipedia then delete pages of people who's body count was not as high as say Seung-Hui Cho? The Clay Duke incident brings up issues of gun control, security, and the sales tax among others. This article once expanded would be a worthy addition to Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashershow1 (talk • contribs) 13:10, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You don't get to vote twice. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 19:39, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Please read WP:BIO1E and WP:NOTNEWS. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 17:13, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per Wikipedia:Notability_(people)#People_notable_for_only_one_event and WP:PERP. In the case of Seung-Hui Cho the single event brought about worldwide coverage, lengthy discussion about mental illness and gun rights, and revamps of security procedures on university campuses, etc. This guy was a rambling nut whose rambles don't merit repeating on Wikipedia. He didn't manage to hurt anybody and will be forgotten next week. -IceCreamAntisocial (talk) 13:51, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Florida-related deletion discussions. —LadyofShalott 15:29, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - Wikipedia is not the local newspaper, and subject does not appear to satisfy WP:PERP. LadyofShalott 15:35, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. The case is noteworthy, even if for his missing six people at point blank range. While shooting himself dead shows he meant business. Adds to one's understanding of quirkiness of human nature.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.14.40.34 (talk) 15:53, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• None of those are a valid rationale for including this article in Wikipedia. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 17:13, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To the unregistered user who didn't sign his/her opinion: there is nothing "quirky" about a misbegotten ex-con with easy access to a gun and ammo, and nothing notable about him in life or in death except for his cowardice. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 17:54, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - this is yet another copycat rampage with a gun it is not notable for anything other than it failed. By associating this refrence tool with mayhem we grant it notability it is not notableMasterknighted (talk) 16:13, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. -- -- Cirt (talk) 16:19, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete, WP:BIO1E and WP:NOTNEWS. Clear-cut case; he didn't even kill anyone. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 17:10, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. "He didn't even kill anyone", not true he killed himself. Besides, since when does Wikipedia judge notability based on the body count?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashershow1 (talk • contribs)

NOTE: This is either an unsigned !vote or apparently User:Ashershow1's third vote (albeit unsigned) on which the following two comments are based: Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 16:10, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Committing suicide when the cops are closing in doesn't earn you a Wikipedia article. It's how you live your life that determines notability. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 16:01, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Other than himself, I meant, which I'm sure you understood. It's a lot more rare that multiple people are killed than just a suicide. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 22:30, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete: WP:NOTNEWS and WP:PERPETRATOR (as above). There is no comparison to Columbine as another editor mistakenly pronounced above. Nothing encyclopaedic or worthy of posthumous attention about this cowardly thug. He was not and is not notable. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 17:44, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete The "Just as notable" arguments are nothing short of laughable. Grsz 11 18:29, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete -While the news item itself is worthy of being documented on Wikipedia, the man who caused it does not deserve his own entry. He should certainly be mentioned in an article about the event, but this is the only thing he's ever done to gain notoriety. His name will be forgotten pretty quickly, even though people will remember the bizarre and unfortunate event. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.173.80.45 (talk) 18:53, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. Not noteworthy enough for permanent keep. This is News at best, not of encyclopaedic value. --tom (talk) 19:19, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. No notability except for the crime perpetuated, Dismissal according to WP:NOTNEWS and WP:PERPETRATOR. DrachenFyre > YOU! (talk) 20:57, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Seung-Hui Cho was not notable except for the crime he perpetuated. Yet he has a Wikipedia page. This is because Clay Duke goes beyond "the crime perpetuated," he raises issues of gun control, security, and others. Clay Duke is as notable as the Columbine murders, or the Virginia Tech shooter. Ashershow1 (talk) 05:14, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cho murdered 32 people. Duke murdered nobody, he could not even shoot straight. Trailer trash with more ballistics than balls. WWGB (talk) 11:11, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Sad that the article was written about the perpetrator of the crime, rather than about the security guard who saved everyone's lives. Perhaps it's because Mike Jones is a very common name, or that the alternative was an awkward title like "2010 Panama City school board meeting shooting". I'm afraid that making Mr. Duke the leading man, putting his name in lights and prominently displaying his photo, doomed this page from the beginning. It's possible that something that has been front page and lead story WP:NEWS might graduate into WP:EVENT, and that school board members will pack heat at their next meeting. On the other hand, a similar incident [1] is not mentioned at all in our article about Mount Pleasant, Iowa, and no indication that it changed the way that local meetings are conducted. Mandsford 14:10, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per WP:NOTNEWS and WP:PERPETRATOR with no prejudice against Clay Duke existing as a redirect to the shooting event if consensus dictates that said event merits inclusion. youngamerican (wtf?) 15:42, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of News-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 00:56, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Are criminals honoured for their job? Not in my perspective. There's a published news source, but it does fail WP:NOTNEWS, WP:BIO1E and WP:ANYBIO. Minimac (talk) 04:44, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect to an article about the incident itself per some of the rules stated. I would hesitate to say that this incident is as notable as the Columbine shootings or the Virginia Tech shootings, but the event itself is notable nonetheless. It would probably be fairer for only the incident itself to have an article instead of only this one person. Backtable _{Speak to me}^{concerning my deeds.} 06:13, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect I agree the incident is noteworthy although the individual is not.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.173.182.192 (talk) 10:40, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete There are a lot of criminals and there is no benefit from erecting a shrine to those whose 15-minutes of fame has elapsed. That is, this subject fails notability requirements. Johnuniq (talk) 06:06, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect I initially was for deletion, but I think a redirect to an article about the incident would be appropriate. The incident is newsworthy, Clay Duke is not on his own. Marshall Stax (talk) 10:03, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

With all due respect to those supporting a "redirect", I must point out that there is nothing to redirect to. To be fully honest I don't think the incident itself was sufficiently notable to merit an article, either, but that's another story. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 23:02, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• 2010 Panama City school board shootings — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashershow1 (talk • contribs) 07:27, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

2010 Panama City school board shootings was created on December 21st, two days after I left the message re no article to redirect to. I will review the article to see if it qualifies as notable; however as the 2010 Panama City school board shootings article currently exists, the Clay Duke page is now clearly ready for its author (Ashershow1) to request its deletion. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 17:09, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete I echo the comments that Wikipedia is not a newspaper. There is a notability line for actors in current events. This individual doesn't have a speaking part. Jhw57 (talk) 13:34, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep I maintain the stance that Clay Duke is a notable figure due to the issues he raises, but I will reluctantly accept a merge, not a redirect with 2010 Panama City school board shootings. If there is an administrator here who is strongly for deletion, I will merge Clay Duke with the event article. Ashershow1 (talk) 21:05, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You don't get to vote four times. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 16:14, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• I must point out that keeping or deleting an article is not based on whether "there is an administrator... who is strongly for" one or the other, but on the consensus formed by all participants in the discussion, and the relative strengths of their arguments as based in WP policy. LadyofShalott 00:32, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge with the existing article on the shooting, there is no need for a separate article as he was not notable in any way beforehand. Zerbey (talk) 22:47, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Seung-Hui Cho wasn't notable before hand. Neither was Eric Harris nor Dylan Klebold. Ashershow1 (talk) 02:39, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to nominate the Seung-Hui Cho and Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold articles for deletion, go ahead. You don't get to vote two five times, though. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 02:59, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Per Ashershow1. Just like Lee Harvey Oswald, or Jack Ruby. Although obviously you cannot compare the two with this event as its far smaller scaled, it doesn't mean that a smaller event invalidates this article's existence on this wiki. 24.1.211.254 (talk) 05:52, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

— 24.1.211.254 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

To say Clay Duke was "Just like Lee Harvey Oswald or Jack Ruby" is like comparing Perez Hilton to Ian McKellan, or Spencer Pratt and Heidi Montag to Burns & Allen. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 19:39, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• That's your opinion, you do not have a source for this. And I'm not going to nominate Seung-Hui Cho and Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold for deletion for the same reasons that I wouldn't nominate Clay Duke. Ashershow1 (talk) 20:16, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's why the Duke page was nominated for you. I can't take the credit as I didn't have the chance to initiate it. Bongomatic did. I am glad to see, however, that you stopped voting after the fourth fifth time. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 21:33, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. The 15 minutes of fame are over; the name "Clay Duke" is now even harder to look up on regular news outlets due to its passing interest. Therefore there is no enduring notability per WP:NOTNEWS. Cactusjump (talk) 22:11, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect In retrospect, I would be willing to support a redirect to the shooting itself but not an outright delete. Vandersontx (talk) 11:52, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I understand the general consensus here is to delete Clay Duke, so as the author of both Clay Duke, and 2010 Panama City school board shootings I will merge Clay Duke into 2010 Panama City school board shootings. The information from the Clay Duke page will be incorporated into a subsection of the event page. Clay Duke will also become a redirect to 2010 Panama City school board shootings. Ashershow1 (talk) 23:13, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hey. I see this has been a little traumatic for you and I apologize if you think anything I stated was out of line. A bit of advice: train yourself to remember always that no editor owns an article once they have submitted it, no matter how proud he or she may be with it. I know from my own experience. That being said, it is the closing admin who decides what happens to the article, although I suspect he or she won't make any drastic changes to your abovementioned plan of action. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 23:46, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, thanks for your input, I realize we're all just trying to improve Wikipedia here. I transferred all the info to 2010 Panama City school board shootings and redirected Clay Duke, now do I delete the page or does an administrator do that? Ashershow1 (talk) 01:10, 24 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.