Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ace Pijper

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. Consensus of editors here, especially following the relist, is that SIGCOV is not met. My reading of the discussion is these concerns were not adequately addressed, hence closing as delete. Daniel (talk) 22:35, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ace Pijper (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Non-notable athlete, a WP:BEFORE check reveals almost entirely primary sources or routine coverage, and very little or no significant coverage. This is reflected in the article which cites only one non-primary source, which is routine coverage of an event the subject participated in. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 00:49, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Sportspeople, Motorsport, United Kingdom, and Scotland. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 00:49, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Not sure how good the check was! Typed in the name and the first five internet results are five different sources from British Speedway, Workington Speedway, Berwick Bandits, FIM and Glasgow Tigers. Other sources on the page are from the Speedway Star. None of these are Primary sources, they are some of the main Speedway websites etc. A primary source would be his own rider page like some riders have. Pyeongchang (talk) 14:07, 20 October 2023 (UTC) — Note to closing admin: Pyeongchang (talk • contribs) is the creator of the page that is the subject of this AfD. [reply]
• Keep. Articles from British Speedway, his clubs, etc. are fine for fact-checking, but are not really independent third-party coverage, and while there's not a great deal of third-party coverage around, there's enough in the Speedway Star and Polish and Netherlands media to scrape through. As a young rider who has just completed his first season of professional speedway, coverage is bound to increase over time. --Michig (talk) 14:23, 20 October 2023 (UTC) — Note: An editor has expressed a concern that Michig (talk • contribs) has been canvassed to this discussion. (diff)[reply]
  • Articles from British Speedway, his clubs, etc. are fine for fact-checking, but are not really independent third-party coverage Agreed, that is not significant coverage and should not be relied on to establish notability 5225_C (talk • contributions) 07:37, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. Ace Pijper is a speedway rider who has just helped Glasgow Tigers to the 2023 SGB Championship title, so not sure how he can be classed as a non-notable athlete. A quick Google search shows his name appear in multiple news outlets and he has biographies on numerous speedway sites. His coverage is sure to increase as he progresses through the speedway ranks. He's also the son of Theo Pijper, another famous speedway rider. Johnny2hats2 (talk) 16:00, 20 October 2023 (UTC) — Note: An editor has expressed a concern that Johnny2hats2 (talk • contribs) has been canvassed to this discussion. (diff)[reply]
  • Notability is not inherited and is dependent on coverage in reliable sources, which exclude, as Michig points out, official club/championship sources, which are WP:PRIMARY references mostly acceptable for raw stats. On that note, I should also point out that Wikipedia is not meant to be a database of raw stats, nor is it a CRYSTAL ball for tracking progress of "tomorrow's stars." ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  07:26, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. Not only is the rider in question a regular team member in a notable division, whilst still not even an adult, he has also been part of a championship winning team Rcclh (talk) 15:39, 20 October 2023 (UTC) — Note: An editor has expressed a concern that Rcclh (talk • contribs) has been canvassed to this discussion. (diff)[reply]
  • This !vote is a textbook example of WP:NOTINHERITED. That the subject is part of a notable team or has competed in a notable series does not mean they are equally notable. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 07:37, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment – There has been some CANVASSing here by the article creator (all three !voters so far). I remain unconvinced that the subject meets standards for inclusion and will not withdraw the nomination. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 16:57, 20 October 2023 (UTC), amended 16:59, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Quote from Canvassing article page = "In general, it is perfectly acceptable to notify other editors of ongoing discussions", That is all that was done so please don't take offence at the fact that other editors disagree with the nomination for deletion. Motorcycle speedway is a major world sport and these editors are probably some of the best informed on the subject. Pyeongchang (talk) 17:23, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • I didn't say what sort of canvassing it was, I merely noted it for the closing administrator. Odd assumption to make. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 17:46, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Another quote from WP:CANVASS: Vote-stacking: Posting messages to users selected based on their known opinions (which may be made known by a userbox, user category, or prior statement). One of the four users you messaged about this discussion has a userbox identifying themselves as a fan of speedway, another two you have had prior interactions with about the topic confirming you had at least a strong idea of their opinion, and the fourth literally has "SpeedwayInfo" as a username. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  07:09, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Netherlands and Poland. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  07:18, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hoping our Polish- and Dutch-speaking friends can help us verify coverage in publications in these languages, which has been asserted above. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  07:29, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: A "keep" closure was overturned at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2023 October 30 * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 15:42, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 15:42, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - appears to fail WP:BASIC and WP:SIGCOV. estar8806 (talk) ★ 15:46, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak delete until Polish- and Dutch-language coverage can be demonstrated and verified. Lack of SIGCOV otherwise. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  15:50, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Sportspeople, Motorsport, Netherlands, Poland, United Kingdom, and Scotland. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  16:01, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete: Gsearch goes straight to social media sites, Gnews only has hyper-local coverage in this newspaper [1]. TOOSOON perhaps. No sourcing we can use to meet GNG Oaktree b (talk) 16:26, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't know where these Polish and Dutch sources are, I'm about 6 pages into the Gnews and all I find is this, which is paywalled [2]. You'll need a bunch more than that if you want to have the article kept. Oaktree b (talk) 16:31, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Michig: Could you help us out here? Which sources did you mean, specifically? ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  16:36, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • He competes in the second division of racing, which seems to be a minor league... Even more sourcing is needed if this is kept for a minor league athlete. Oaktree b (talk) 16:32, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • It isn't a minor league. It's the second of two professional leagues in Great Britain. --Michig (talk) 17:59, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. Here's some examples of coverage: [3], [4], [5], [6]. There's more in-depth coverage in Speedway Star but it's all paywalled. --Michig (talk) 18:11, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for these. The second is talking about the ups and downs of becoming professional, and seems to reinforce TOOSOON. The other coverage suggests that he is someone to watch, but Wikipedia is a lagging indicator of notability, and the race reports and information he won a bronze helmet in a race is not sufficient for notability under WP:NMOTORSPORT except for specific races, which this one is not. So this looks like a fail on the subject specific NMOTORSPORT. We are left with GNG, for which we need multiple independent reliable secondary sources. race reports are not secondary. I don't see any evidence that GNG is met either. Notability is not inherited, so I am leaning delete here, unless there is any argument that the subject meets NMOTORSPORT under any of the criteria. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 20:20, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Brief few sentences in a list of competitors in the final source, others are only a paragraph or two (except for the first one, which I mentioned in my !vote above). We're just not a notability. Oaktree b (talk) 21:27, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete or Draftify - the sources present in the article and those provided by Michig appear to be a start but does not meet GNG. As a young athlete, it is possible the subject may become notable at a later time, largely per WP:TOOSOON. Frank Anchor 20:36, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per nom. A search shows very little reliable sources, which are not enough to warrant an article. At this juncture in the subject's career, there is not enough independent coverage. It therefore does not meet WP:BASIC and WP:SIGCOV and fails WP:GNG. -AuthorAuthor (talk) 06:46, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - My reasoning is in my comment above. This could well just be WP:TOOSOON but notability is not yet established. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:24, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak delete. I'm not into sports, so I wouldn't normally opine on this AFD, but since I voted to reopen at DRV I figure extra eyes are helpful. No opinion regarding NMOTORSPORT but I looked at from the point of view of GNG. Thanks to Michig for the foreign-language sources; I know some Polish and translated the Dutch. I think while it's close (hence the "Weak" part of my delete), the mentions are just too brief and limited (either "going to run a race" or "ran a race" or "someone to watch") to write at article at this time. Would suggest draftifying with no prejudice to updating and submitting the draft for approval once there are more sources. Martinp (talk) 15:18, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.