Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2023 Baltic Sea Darts Open

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Galobtter (pingó mió) 00:38, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

2023 Baltic Sea Darts Open

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Another one of these darts tournaments which is wholly sourced to primary sources. Searches did not turn up enough in-depth coverage coverage to meet GNG. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 11:27, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: Are you actually an idiot!!?? This is one of the big darts tournaments, outside a televised tournament. Why does it need extra sources anyway?? And it certainly has general notability in the darts world!! Just because you know nothing about darts, doesn't mean you can ruin it for anybody else, and the tournament starts tomorrow, so you're wasting your time anyway. JRRobinson (talk) 11:33, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia isn't a free web host for the PDC. Are there any news sources picking up on this at all? Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 12:14, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Of course there are, but obviously the PDC will have all the necessary info. JRRobinson (talk) 12:39, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

which is not what is required. We need independent, reliable sources, not what the organization says about itself. Star Mississippi 16:10, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not really sure if "what organization says about itself" applies there, since there is no bias towards or against organization. It's just information about draw, who qualified how and when. Haifisch7734 (talk) 16:43, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, however there are currently no other sources offered, and the argument is about whether these are sufficient to meet the WP:GNG. JMWt (talk) 17:02, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Events, Sports, and Germany. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 12:02, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - if it isn't mentioned in independent, reliable media, it isn't noted. If it isn't noted it isn't notable. If it isn't notable then it shouldn't be here per WP:GNG — Preceding unsigned comment added by JMWt (talk • contribs)
Let's see if coverage comes out this week during the tournament, so no !Vote yet. However JRRobinson's continued creation of articles when they don't understand notability clearly needs to be addressed. Disclosure, I have nominated one of their articles. Star Mississippi 14:31, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks @‎Yngvadottir for the ping reminder. It does appear that sufficient sourcing has covered the tournament. I have not reviewed it for depth, but would say weak keep on this. I may upgrade that with time to review the sourcing. Star Mississippi 14:47, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If that's the case it would appear to be technically WP:TOOSOON and perhaps should be moved to draft. On the other hand I guess if we really believe there will be a lot of media coverage in the next few days then maybe you are right and let it lie.

I also apologise for forgetting to sign my comment before JMWt (talk) 14:36, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You guys just don't get darts, do you?? Why don't you actually leave the darts pages to darts fans who know what we're on about. The European Tour is the highest level of darts below the major/premier events, which the world audience sees all the time. In terms of notability, it's right up there, it's in its 12th year is the European Tour!! And in terms of other media coverage, it's even being shown on UK television for the first time thanks to a new deal with Viaplay Sports. https://twitter.com/ViaplaySportsUK/status/1628756654933041154?cxt=HHwWhICzrYrjwJotAAAA So, this notability-less malarkey is just that, malarkey. JRRobinson (talk) 14:43, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Just read the WP:GNG. We are simply discussing the guidelines, not darts. That's it. JMWt (talk) 15:23, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

EVERY European Tour event since it began in 2012 has its own page!! It's a BIG DEAL!!! You guys just don't get it... JRRobinson (talk) 10:56, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's not about having page or not, it's about sources. Try to use different sources, apart from PDC website. Haifisch7734 (talk) 12:38, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Please leave Darts articles alone. The PDC is a perfectly good source for the draw and results because they organise the event. Effy Midwinter (talk) 16:35, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For that exact reason, it is an unacceptable source and does not confer notability. See WP:IS, WP:GNG, WP:SPORTSEVENT as three relevant guidelines. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 17:22, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

My point is that the organisers of any sporting event are the only definitive source for objective factual information such as scorelines and draws. Every secondary source reports those results as they are determined by the organiser. Effy Midwinter (talk) 03:01, 25 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Which is a violation of WP:NOTDATABASE. Articles rely on significant, independent reliable sources to be notable. That these matches happen is not necessarily sufficient for an article. Star Mississippi 03:34, 25 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to PDC European Tour. Considering that past events at this venue do not have articles, what makes this year's event so special that it warrants a page? ArcAngel (talk) 03:49, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Every European Tour event has its page since it started in 2012. 97 articles. And this year it's first year there is Baltic Sea Darts Open in Kiel, so there were no past events at this venue, so there are no articles about it. That's why this one is first. Haifisch7734 (talk) 07:26, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Well, there isn't much coverage of the event, there's this [1] and this from Planet Sport via Yahoo [2]. The rest are betting sites and live streams. A few more sources, we'd be GNG-adjacent. Oaktree b (talk) 05:14, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Might be too soon, the even is about to open. L'Equipe in France covers darts tournaments [3], but they only have info from January 2023. Perhaps hold off for a week? Oaktree b (talk) 05:20, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Wikipedia:Notability_(sports) contains lists and examples of events that are notable in all sports. Darts is missing. It would seem reasonable to me to put a list there, so that the discussion surrounding the notability of different PDC tournaments is not continuously up for discussion. Using this template, for no other reason than it is available, it would seem to divide current tournaments into "Premier", "Other" and "Youth". I suppose the Youth is a World Championship, so could be deemed notable. The grey area is the "Other" list. The European Tour is a step above the Pro Tour (it is on a stage with a crowd, the prize money is higher), and the people working on darts articles seem to acknowledge that distinction already. The Players Championship Pro Tours just have a summary from the Quarter Finals on, rather than the entire 128-player bracket. The European Tour tournaments have a full 48-player bracket and their own page, and do not include the qualifying part of the tournament at all. In summary, my suggestion is to Keep whilst a set of darts notability guidelines are added to Wikipedia:Notability_(sports). 91.110.26.155 (talk) 20:34, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
At last someone who understands!! People on here just can't understand how the PDC darts system works, and us lot who do the info do a decent job in trying to do pages that are detailed for the majors/premier tournaments, decent enough info for the European Tour, and just general summarisations for the affiliate tours. It's nice to show how diverse the PDC Tour really is, and it has enough links to show where the info is from. Darts does need an update on that "notability" front, but these European Tour events are well talked about in darting circles, and certainly deserve individual pages!! The fact we've just had the 98th European Tour speaks for itself!! JRRobinson (talk) 10:09, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep There's, IMHO, enough independent coverage to keep the article, also merging would make any parent article excessively large. Seems fine to keep this. --Jayron 32 12:46, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. As Star Mississippi suspected might happen, extended coverage in independent sources appeared once the event happened. I was able to add Sky Sports and the winner's local newspaper, saw others, and Sky Sports covered the maximum score record. I also quoted a German local news article on the latter (text is blanked out for me but Google shows me the passage). There's at least one article in Dutch that also covers the record. Yngvadottir (talk) 23:54, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.