Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2021 NHL Outdoor Games

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. I wish people would wait with creating articles like this one until there's actually something solid ("no deadline", remember). But consensus is clear that this is a notable future event, so: Keep. Randykitty (talk) 17:33, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

2021 NHL Outdoor Games (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

The NHL did not announce anything. The information about these supposed games come from anonymous sources and is nothing more than WP:CRYSTAL at this time. The NHL lists TD Garden and Ball Arena as the venues for these scheduled games. – Sabbatino (talk) 09:36, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ice hockey-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 09:43, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 09:46, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 10:16, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep There is significant coverage in multiple, reliable independent sources so WP:N is clearly met. And these sources are major outlets: in addition to ESPN and USA Today other sources to cover this are Sportsnet [1], Bleacher Report [2], and The Athletic [3]; plus the local Reno Gazette-Journal [4]. All these are independent articles, not just the same Associated Press blurb.

Far as WP:CRYSTAL, I don't think it applies. WP:CRYSTAL says, beginning with it's first sentence "Wikipedia is not a collection of unverifiable speculation or presumptions...A schedule of future events may be appropriate if it can be verified" As I pointed out above, there are multiple verifiable sources; WP:CRYSTAL does not require the league to make an announcement (and to the contrary, the NHL isn't an independent source so we shouldn't wait for their formal announcement). Wikipedia often has articles on proposed major sports events/schedules. A Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs. Manny Pacquiao article was created in 2013, despite the fight not being formally agreed to or announced until years later. There is an article about the 2022 F1 season because there are sources that discuss races, despite the fact F1 has not announced the schedule themselves. Meanwhile, the article in question is about a proposed event only six weeks away and is being reported by a lot of major outlets. There is coverage, so the article should stand. RonSigPi (talk) 14:37, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

How WP:F1 and WP:BOXING handle their articles is no concern of ours. We do not create a page just because someone reports about a supposed event. I am not familiar with WP:BOXING, but I do know how WP:F1 handle their pages. Drivers and circuits sign an X-year contract and everyone knows when it would be the last year of the contract so WP:F1 can create their pages in advance. This is not the case with NHL, NBA, NFL, etc. season pages. – Sabbatino (talk) 16:19, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete: I neither think this is significant coverage, nor that this is anything beyond routine sports coverage debarred by WP:ROUTINE. All these articles say the same things and nothing more: that the NHL is mooting a couple games at Lake Tahoe, and identifies the four teams likely to play. Period. Without a great deal more information, this is nothing beyond a sub-stub, and a speculative one at that. Wikipedia is not the rumor mill, no one gets a prize for being the first to scoop us all, and we lose nothing by waiting for an article that actually provides enough information to be a viable article. Ravenswing 04:52, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Ravenswing: I don't think the sub-stub characterization is fair. Before any of this deletion discussion started, User:Whoisjohngalt independently classified this as Start-class; even if you don't agree with that decision, it is unfair to say this is not just a stub, but a sub-stub (a two level jump down what has already been determined). Further, even if this were a sub-stub, then that is irrelevant to deletion; it is a call to improve the article. With that being said, you make a fair point that the article could be more detailed. So I have expanded the article with content from various sources (including the major newspapers of the four teams). You may think this is all routine coverage, but the article now incorporates a dozen independent and distinct sources and has multiple sections. If it wasn't start quality before, it should be now. RonSigPi (talk) 21:11, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Notability requires coverage in reliable secondary sources. That is clearly met here. Whether there is a release from the NHL is irrelevant since press releases don't count towards notability anyway. Smartyllama (talk) 13:53, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Smartyllama: This is not about notability. This is about WP:SPECULATION. Neither the NHL or the teams announced anything about the supposed event. All official sources indicate that the teams will play in their home venues. – Sabbatino (talk) 17:25, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Smartyllama: "Wikipedia is not a collection of product announcements and rumors. Although Wikipedia includes up-to-date knowledge about newly revealed products, short articles that consist of only product announcement information are not appropriate. Until such time that more encyclopedic knowledge about the product can be verified, product announcements should be merged to a larger topic (such as an article about the creator(s), a series of products, or a previous product) if applicable." Ravenswing 18:36, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So the problem is simultaneously that it is an announcement and there hasn't been an announcement yet? Which one is it? It can't be both. Smartyllama (talk) 19:42, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Wikipedia has a big shelf. I should have classified this as Stub-class, but that is now a moot point. Not a hockey fan and really have no do in this fight, but I tend to be more of an inclusionist. Whoisjohngalt (talk) 21:23, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Draft for now, until the NHL makes an announcement. If they don't? then Delete. GoodDay (talk) 01:36, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Draftify per GoodDay. All we have is rumor, and WP:NOTRUMOR is a core policy. Save it for when something official is known. oknazevad (talk) 05:06, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Draft until there is an actual official announcement, not just rumors and reports from anonymous "league sources". In this time of COVID-19, we have to assume there has not been any official announcement yet because they still have to get it approved by local health officials and other red tape. In other words, it might not happen after all. Until then, it does not warrant a separate article split from the main 2020–21 NHL season page. Zzyzx11 (talk) 08:48, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Keep now that there is an official announcement.[5][6] Zzyzx11 (talk) 08:18, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment We have an official announcement. As this addresses the concerns of all delete !voters, it should immediately be closed as keep. Smartyllama (talk) 21:21, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Has been officially announced now. -DJSasso (talk) 16:19, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Officially announced, no different than any other outdoor event at this point. – Nurmsook! ^talk... 18:19, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep now that we have an official announcement from the NHL. Ejgreen77 (talk) 11:41, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.