User:Razr Nation/Civility enforcement case
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Clarification request: Civility enforcementInitiated by -— Isarra ༆ at 23:27, 16 October 2012 (UTC) List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Statement by IsarraOne of the remedies of the Civility enforcement arbitration case was as follows:
Now I have tried moving some such discussions to the talkpages in the past as I do not believe they belong on the RfAs themselves, but with ones in which Malleus Fatuorum is involved, this has been contested and reverted due to the fact that he is banned from said talkpages and thus would be unable to continue to participate in these discussions. [10] [11], [12] Given that holding irrelevant discussion on an RfA itself can be disruptive just by being there regardless of who is doing it, however, I have to ask - is this appropriate? As he is banned from discussion on the talkpages, should that not include a ban from similar discussion on the RfAs themselves? As it is, I would put forward that the ban is currently doing more harm than good because it encourages off-topic discussion on RfAs, and as such either the ban should be lifted entirely so that the discussion can take place where it would make more sense and less interrupt the RfAs themselves, or the explanation should be extended to cover discussion on all parts of the RfA process so as to be effective. -— Isarra ༆ 23:27, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
Comment. As a newish editor, I feel I must mention that I find the sort of thing as has unfolded here to be far more off-putting than any one user's lack of decorum. With one person it is easily written off as just them, doesn't really mean much, but with many users involved, it speaks ill of the project as a whole regardless of what a small fraction is actually represented. A true conflict takes more than one, and that is where the real damage is done. Something to consider, perhaps? I don't know. Regardless, thank you to those of you who have not added to the unfortunateness and have tried to keep matters civil and productive, and as for those who have inadvertently added to the heat, well, it happens. We can all try to do better in the future. -— Isarra ༆ 03:34, 22 October 2012 (UTC) Statement by Dennis BrownI tend to agree that the ban is not effective. I see Malleus had to revert where someone had moved a discussion to the talk page, in order to not be guilty by someone else's doing. I actually agreed with that being moved to the talk page, and with Malleus reverting it since it violated the spirit of his ban. I ended up hatting it. From my observation, much of what is called "disruption" is just a tough question or valid points made by Malleus, and others dog pile on, in part because of this talk page ban. The ban is doing the exact opposite of what was intended. I will be the first to say Malleus can be pointed at times, but not nearly as much as others claim, who seem to just waiting for him to have an opinion so they can pounce. The best thing that we can do to help restore order is to lift the talk page ban and allow admin to simply use their judgement, like they would any other editor. If anything, we need to clerk the RfA page stronger, moving the threaded off-topic comments by anyone to the talk page, and this ban actually works against that. Drop the ban and help restore some order by re-leveling the playing field, and maybe we can start clerking the page a bit better as a bonus. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:55, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
Statement by Malleus Fatuorum
Uninvolved statement by jc37Because RfA is a hybrid between consensus and voting (as a page where extra tools or responsibilities are requested by an individual), there is a mild ongoing tug-of-war of sorts between those who want the page to solely be a "vote" with minimal commentary, and those who note that it is a discussion page like any other Wikipedia discussion page. The current loose consensus is that discussion is allowed, but only as long as it stays civil (with NPA), and stays on the topic of the request and the contributions of the requester. General discussions about RfA, or anything else off-topic are generally moved to the talk page. As for Malleus, in my experience, for the most part his comments have appeared to have been on topic, but I think his "civility" could be subjectively argued at times. I'll leave that to others to determine. - jc37 02:13, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
@Arbcom - To continue with Kirill's concern, how is a 6 month ban in this case preventative and not punitive? The way it's framed, it really sounds punitive, and almost reminds me of a "cool-down block". Wouldn't adding unblock (un-ban?) criteria/requirements be closer to existing policy? And to be clear, this is a request for clarification, not an "attack" in anyway. (It's a shame I should feel I have to clarify that.) - jc37 18:37, 20 October 2012 (UTC) Statement by FranamaxArbCom could help by clarifying that off-topic discussion in RFAs should be moved to RFA talk pages per normal procedure without consideration for whether or not Malleus Fatuorum (or any other topic-restricted editor) was involved in the discussion. These sub-threads are moved to talk to prevent disruption to the actual RFA. It makes zero sense that for the sake of MF and their ban from disrupting RFA talk pages we should instead permit continued disruption of the RFA pages instead. Moving off-topic discussion to talk is in no way a gambit to stifle MF, it's to preserve the purpose of the RFA. The latest case where Isarra tried to move completely unrelated discussion off the RFA page only emphasizes this. And contrary to Dennis Brown's assertion, Malleus is at absolutely zero risk if someone else moves their signed posts to talk, only if they place the post on talk themselves. Franamax (talk) 04:01, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
Statement by Rschen7754Is there some reason why Worm that Turned isn't listed as a party on here? --Rschen7754 04:32, 17 October 2012 (UTC) Mmmph. I've appreciated Malleus' input on forums such as WT:GAN; he has a good understanding of what quality is. But his refusal to adhere to what the rest of the community has to adhere to has unfortunately resulted in this ban motion. A bit sad. --Rschen7754 18:12, 19 October 2012 (UTC) @Jclemens: I find myself reluctantly agreeing with the supporting arbs of the ban, but I think "It's time to face the fact that Malleus is not now, nor has he ever been, a member of the Wikipedia community." and related statements are just insulting. --Rschen7754 01:31, 20 October 2012 (UTC) @Jclemens: You know all that's going to do is piss him off, right? I agree that if he can't behave, a ban is the "least worst" option, but for someone who has contributed so much to the site, that's unfairly harsh. --Rschen7754 02:16, 20 October 2012 (UTC) @Jclemens: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Ottava Rima restrictions - there, ArbCom at least had the dignity to recognize his contributions to the encyclopedia, even though his conduct was quite damaging. Again, I'll say it again - I agree with what Newyorkbrad has said and hope Malleus agrees to improve, and agree with Hersfold and SirFozzie's rationale in voting completely if that fails, but the fact that you can't see what you wrote as entirely unhelpful to the situation is quite worrying. Are you trying to piss Malleus off so he rejects Newyorkbrad's advice and so you can get him banned? --Rschen7754 02:45, 20 October 2012 (UTC) @Courcelles: I think you raise a good point, but the question I have is, what if he doesn't change? --Rschen7754 04:37, 21 October 2012 (UTC) @Courcelles: I think you have your answer. :( [15] --Rschen7754 21:44, 21 October 2012 (UTC) Statement by Worm That TurnedMorning all. I absolutely agree that the current remedy on Malleus Fatuorum is not fit for purpose. I said as much back in July, before the whole thing degraded into a civility fight. I'm afraid I expect this request to do exactly the same. In any case, I fully support Malleus Fatuorum's topic ban being reduced to just WT:RFA, and not talk pages of RfAs. He's completely adhered to that topic ban and I believe this should be recognised. The only change in my statement is that now I believe an admin has invoked a discretionary sanction - I did. I would prefer to see discretionary sanctions available on all editors at RfA, but I don't see that happening without a case on the RfA process, if that's even possible. I see above that there has been some discussion of the discretionary sanction I invoked. I would like to make it clear that I did it to nip any disruption in the bud, not to stop past disruption. Malleus' comments were, in my opinion, only verging on disruption though the volume appeared excessive. Despite a little grumbling, Malleus confirmed that he didn't intend to edit the RfA further anyway, and the candidate withdrew soon after at my suggestion. Indeed, in adding me to this request, Isarra pointed out she hadn't even noticed I'd done it. In other words, a good outcome, Malleus could not do something he didn't intend to do anyway and the world didn't end. WormTT(talk) 07:52, 17 October 2012 (UTC) @Courcelles, Malleus is not "banned from editting the pages", he's topic banned. If someone moves his comments to that page, it could also be seen as a violation of the topic ban. Malleus did the right thing by removing that violation. WormTT(talk) 07:52, 17 October 2012 (UTC) @SirFozzie, I find your remedy disappointing. It doesn't deal with the issue, just cuts it out. Malleus may be a figurehead of incivility, but that allows him a unique pivotal role in improving it, should he decide to. I do wonder if you are trying to put forward a show of power, with the election looming. Your seat is up for renewal, isn't it? WormTT(talk) 15:24, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
Denunciation of hypocrisy: A statement by Kiefer.WolfowitzThis is a disgusting case of one-sided hypocrisy. This RfA saw an administrator attack Malleus as suffering from paranoia, yet none of you did anything in protest. (Worm That Turned did make good comments at ANI.) MONGO, in particular, you did nothing. Yet here you are again, continuing to hound Malleus. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 09:26, 17 October 2012 (UTC) It is time for ArbCom to admit that its decision was based on an everyday meaning of "disruptive", as in a "phone call disrupted my dinner", rather than in the meaning of WP:Disruptive Editing. You should nullify the parts of your decision that were improperly based on your whims, rather than on your authority as implementers of WP policy. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 10:55, 17 October 2012 (UTC) @Malleus, just ignore JC37 and Hersfold, like the rest of us do. Nobody cares about Hersfold's opinions about who has a place on this project, and arbitrators with sense will continue to stop those without sense from implementing their punishment fantasies. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:02, 18 October 2012 (UTC) @The little clerk ("PenWhale") should stop his finger-poking and either retract his comments or admonish arbs who go off topic. Perhaps he should find another activity where he will do less damage? The comment that he is afraid of this "spiraling out of control" shows how little equipped he is to be a clerk. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:14, 19 October 2012 (UTC) @SirFozzie, Your acquiescence to Malleus's being accused of paranoia and your silence regarding other personal attacks and incivility directed towards him show that you need to work on simulating an honest person. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 16:10, 19 October 2012 (UTC) @Dianna, Those who can disconnect JClemens from ArbCom would do better to view "The Ultimate Computer". Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:59, 22 October 2012 (UTC) AGK: Resign!@AGK, Didn't you fail to disclose your previous accounts the last election, violating the rules. Why are you allowed a vote, particularly on the topic of "dishonest t**t"? Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:05, 19 October 2012 (UTC) @AGK, How dare you remove the refutation of your falsehood that Malleus is a net negative? Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:39, 19 October 2012 (UTC) Your misunderstanding of WP:Point is another reason that you should resign. You are just incompetent as an arbitrator or dishonest, and either suffices as grounds for you to resign. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 22:20, 19 October 2012 (UTC) @Leaky Cauldron, you are wasting time with this guy. You think that his nomination statement is worth anything? He needs to be kicked out of the committee. How does recall work? Kiefer.Wolfowitz 22:24, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
Questions from The ed17Okay, I'll bite. JClemens, you should recuse. While I'm not going to go as far as others and say you need to resign, that's conduct unbecoming of a person in your position(s). @Courcelles: are we really going to call this undo (read: no content added) a "crystal clear violation of the remedy" when MF obviously did it to ensure he wouldn't be in violation of said remedy? @Mongo: ... really? Ban Malleus for some borderline comments, and then emergency desysop any admin who disagrees with the ban? That's utterly ridiculous and serves only as fodder for others to ask what your intentions are. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 10:07, 17 October 2012 (UTC) @Arbcom, would any of you consider proposing an interaction ban between Malleus, et al., and Mongo? That would help address the other major source of vitriol currently swirling around the wiki. (not sure if that's in the purview of a 'clarification request', but if bans are, then I'd think this is) Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 05:55, 22 October 2012 (UTC) Statement by Dr. BlofeldFocus on content only folks!! The readers of wikipedia couldn't give a monkey's right testicle about this and any act wiki legal act. Get writing instead, nobody cares! ♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:46, 17 October 2012 (UTC) Statement by Leaky CaldronClaiming that Malleus's revert of the RFA thread move was a violation of his talk page ban demonstrates all the policy-wonkery and determined "rules are more important" approach that gives this place a bad name. Above all, for as long as Admin remains a job for life and is a highly prized position by some editors, it is essential that honest opinions can be honestly expressed. That is what Malleus offers and his ban should be lifted. Leaky Caldron 11:40, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
Statement by MBisanzI haven't looked at MF's latest comments or even bothered to read in detail the basis for Arbcom's page ban; I frankly am uninterested in either. However, I am intimately interested in the functioning of RFA and those things that affect the process. MF's current page ban is faulty for reasons already enumerated above. It's well known that threaded discussions from WP:RFA/* are moved to WT:RFA/*. Also, the goal of the ban was to stop there from being controversy regarding MF's editing. That this request was filed and the referenced threads occurred, the page ban is also faulty. That isn't to say any page ban was necessarily the best option, merely that this formulation of a page ban is particularly defective. Alternatives Arbcom could have, and should now, consider are:
That the situation in RFA has devolved to the point where general discretionary sanctions are a valid alternative has many causes that cannot be blamed on MF. As LC notes above, RFA is an unusual venue on the project in that consensus cannot change once an RFA is closed. For this reason, historically commenters have been given a wide latitude under the theory that it is better to permit all conceivable material when making an irreversible decision than to preclude any piece of information that could end up being determinative. However, as is well documented in other forums to the extent that reference is unnecessary, RFA is viewed as a particularly unpleasant process for the subject and is also an unhappy place for the commenters. I was reading a different RFA thread earlier today involving users who have been editing since 2003, 2006, and 2007 where the discussion had turned so unpleasant that I was prepared to block them, but for the fact they stopped bickering yesterday. Part of this can be blamed on the crats, including myself. While the RFA procedures state that crats will separate the wheat from the chaff at closing, we have generally avoided performing substantive analysis on the comments in favor of a procedural analysis. For example, in a recent RFA, I see several opposes praising the user for their editing, but stating it is of an insufficient length and urging them to return in some period of time. A comment that states a person has shown good judgment and has no undesirable qualities is a support or at least a neutral, not an oppose. That it is in the oppose section is problematic and were I to perform a substantive analysis of each comment, it would be found wanting. On the other hand, I frequently see support comments without explanation or that are done to spite the opposition; these are also without merit. Beyond the enumerated role of the crats, there is a broader sense of crats as having special authority in the RFA domain (reflected poorly in the preamble to the crat policy). As stated above, we have generally exercised a light touch in the use of that authority and preferred to shift the bulk of our action to the closure process. This results in problems, such as those that triggered this clarification request. Were we to recognize that the unpleasantness of RFA is from the process itself and not the result, we should take a more active role to nip/hat discussions earlier, block more readily, and strike faulty comments/!votes quicker. Lacking the crat staff/will to do this, discretionary sanctions enforced by administrators could serve as a supplementary aid. MBisanz talk 15:44, 17 October 2012 (UTC) Statement by Mark ArstenThe problem here isn't Malleus, it's Rfa itself. I encourage everyone involved to work toward a consensus about how to reform Rfa in general instead of focusing on individual editors. Mark Arsten (talk) 15:57, 17 October 2012 (UTC) Statement by NewyorkbradMany times over the past few months, Malleus Fatuorum has severely criticized my !voting on RfAs. He does so both in individual RfAs and in discussing the overall process. It seems I have become his canonical example of someone who supposedly gives ill-informed support to unqualified candidates. (As it happens, I cast a lot more RfA supports than opposes, partly because most RfAs that I would oppose are already failing and I skip unnecessary pile-on opposes.) I think it's best that as an arbitrator, I recuse on this request. (Editors may not deliberately force arbitrator recusals by making lots of loud, hostile comments about an arbitrator and then suggesting that such comments must induce bias. If I believed that Malleus had tried to bait me into recusing on a future arbitration request, for that very reason I would not do so. But I know Malleus was not remotely thinking along those lines; I've added this paragraph simply so that my comments here won't be quoted out of context and set a bad precedent.) My thoughts about Malleus Fatuorum are well-known by now. He writes good content, and he is helpful and friendly and collaborative when he wants to be. But he also has a notorious habit of making shrill and hostile comments toward editors he disagrees with. I believe most people would prefer if he would express his views much more temperately. I am confident that given his undoubted rhetorical skills he would have no trouble doing this if he chose to. (See also my comments on the current RfC/Civility.) I don't have an opinion on whether or how the current restriction on Malleus should be changed. I can say that I was involved in at least one instance when it became problematic. I had supported an RfA, and Malleus disagreed with me, and we got into a dialog that grew somewhat off-topic. I suggested that we should take it to the talkpage. Malleus replied with frustration to the effect that "you know perfectly well that I'm not allowed on the talkpage." I had forgotten that; it was an awkward moment. The best solution here is really not to have a lengthy of discussion of whether and how Malleus's restriction should be expanded or tweaked or modified. It is for Malleus to eliminate the need for this debate, and the need for any continued restriction on his participation, by expressing his opinions about the candidates, whatever they may be, in a much less shrill, less hostile, and less argumentative fashion. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:32, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
Point of Information by TheRedPenOfDoom@Newyorkbrad "I want to express my disagreement with the suggestion that a couple of editors have offered, to the effect that some arbitrators' comments or votes on this matter may have been influenced somehow by the fact that there is an arbitrator election coming up" I would like to point out that it appears to have been an ArbCom Member who first brought up the upcoming election's potential impact "I understand your desire, Newyorkbrad; however, the level of inactivity in several of our members, the distaste almost everyone on the committee has for even so much as reading the internecine warfare on workshop pages, and the fact that half the committee is about to be distracted by the community's discussion of the next Arbcom elections, leads me to believe that two months may be a conservative estimate. Risker (talk) 01:41, 1 October 2012 (UTC) " back when the ArbCom in their wisdom decided to punt the issue earlier this month. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:39, 21 October 2012 (UTC) Statement by A Quest for KnowledgeEven in his comments here, MF can't help but violate the Fourth Pillar:
A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:46, 18 October 2012 (UTC) Statement by RegentsParkThe simplest solution is to lift the talk page ban on Malleus. Not only is the current ban ineffective, I don't see his comments as particularly problematic. On the contrary, he often asks questions that are pertinent and worth asking and which no one else appears to ask. Pointing out the vacuous nature of a comment, challenging a support !vote to explain itself better, these are all useful things. Granted he could phrase himself better ("dishonest
Motion on Malleus Fatuorum (3)(Non-arb proposed motion) This entire affair is doing an incredible amount of damage to the Wikipedia community with battles breaking out all over the place and several prolific content contributors as well as several active administrators indicating their intention to retire. Given that the purpose of arbcom is not to add to drama but to reduce it, this entire clarification request is closed with the following reply: "Malleus is not allowed to post on RfA talk pages. Editors are requested not to move any threads in which he has commented to an RfA talk page without his permission or without community consensus."
Statement by Jethro BCompletely uninvolved here. Reading Malleus' comments on this thread alone, I'm surprised at the heated level and incivility that he is expressing, on a thread about incivility! For example, he has violated WP:AGF regarding the editor jc37, attacked Franamax by asking if he/she could read, suggested that banning MONGO for his comment would be a splendid idea, called Courcelles a "dishonest fucker," attacked SirFozzie on multiple occasions and said not to be surprised of consequences to his actions here, attacked Wikipedia as a "heaving swell of vendettas" (if you don't like the site, why are you editing?), attacked Hersfold and violated WP:AGF, etc... All of this can be found in his comments in his thread. I find that absurd. This level of incivility on this thread is unacceptable, and is surely only representative of comments on other threads (such as "dishonest twit"). I don't know Malleus well enough to request any particular action, and a simply remedy may suffice, but this should certainly be taken into account. --Jethro B 05:50, 19 October 2012 (UTC) @GFHandel - I left that as a disclosure, as I have no opinion whether he should be banned, blocked, topic banned, or whatever. I'm simply pointing out what I believe is incivil rhetoric on this thread, and this thread is regarding civility. --Jethro B 18:27, 19 October 2012 (UTC) @Malleus - IRC? Thats the Internet chat form thing right? I've never used any Wikipedia IRC, don't know where I'd set one up, and don't know how to. Ask every editor here if they've seen me on an IRC, they'd tell you no. A little WP:AGF would be nice. --Jethro B 19:17, 19 October 2012 (UTC) Statement by GFHandelOne of the seminal books I've read is, surprisingly, "The Dilbert Principle" by Scott Adams. You wouldn't think that a book of cartoons would have such an influence, however near the end of the book is a chapter discussing "OA5" (which stands for "Out at Five") in which Adams muses that "the key to good management is knowing what's fundamental to success and what's not". He develops the idea by asking the reader to look around their company and identify activities that are at least one level removed from the fundamentals of the company. Adams illustrates his "one level removed" point with examples: "if you are testing a better way to assemble a product, that's fundamental; but if you're working on a task force to develop a suggestion system then you're one level removed", and "if you're talking to a customer, that's fundamental; if you're talking about customers you're probably one level removed". Humorously, he speculates that "you will not be missed if you are abducted by aliens" if you are involved in activities such as "Quality Faire", "ISO 9000", "Policy improvement", "Writing vision statements", "Writing mission statements", etc. Why was the book seminal to me? Because I quickly learned to steer away from "one level removed" activities in a business, and to respect and support those who were not "one level removed". It is very easy to get caught up in "one level removed" activities at Wikipedia, however I suspect that the outside world would treat with some amazement the banning of an editor who is the antithesis of the "one level removed" phenomena. In contrast, I picked (at random) one of those who supports the ban, and wasn't surprised to find that they had made less than seventy article edits in the previous twelve months. Therefore, and with probably insufficient respect, I know whom I would be proffering to the alien abductors (in preference to Malleus) if they ever come looking around these parts. That sentiment is driven purely by the existence of the first and (in my opinion) most important pillar: Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia. GFHandel ♬ 00:38, 20 October 2012 (UTC) @Jethro B: You wrote "I don't know Malleus well enough...", so I'm curious how much research you did before commenting here? For example, are you aware that (as I enter this) Malleus has made 137,979 edits (including 83,578 article edits)—which places him 83rd on the Wikipedia:List of Wikipedians by number of edits, has created 112 articles (of which three are now FA and four are GA), has performed 244 GA reviews, has 321 entries at the Project quality task force, is always ready to help anyone who asks for assistance, and does his best to help maintain balance at one of the most oft-criticised processes at Wikipedia—the RfA system that has led to this ruckus? Now that you are aware, do you see any grounds for accepting that Wikipedia is a melting pot, however no matter what is postulated at pages such as this, the basis for our work is to build an encyclopaedia for our readers—and that perhaps, based on the above information, Malleus' motives are aimed primarily at that goal? GFHandel ♬ 06:23, 19 October 2012 (UTC) Statement by AnthonyhcoleI haven't followed much of MF's RfA work but in what I've seen, he's been forthright in his criticisms of candidates, which is usually a good thing. The absence of real scrutiny and judgment at most RfAs I've watched horrifies me. While we have this absurd broken process, we need more MFs not less. So, stop telling your interlocutors (except for the candidate, of course) what you think of them, Malleus. Because if you're going to keep doing that, you won't be welcome at RfA. For that matter, if you continue insulting people your welcome on this project will wear out soon. I respect your opinion on many things. I share your opinion of most of the people you dis - not all - and it's refreshing to hear it said out loud, but just not appropriate for a workplace. It would be ridiculous for RfA to lose your insight and scrutiny because you won't restrain yourself from calling fools and liars fools and liars. But it will, and the project will eventually lose you too, if you don't stop that. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 08:10, 19 October 2012 (UTC) @Mark Arsten: Are you aware of this? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 08:20, 19 October 2012 (UTC) @Arbitrators. This proposed ban is too soon. The only thing Malleus does that causes drama is he tells people what he thinks of them. I realise that's not appropriate and we can't tolerate it forever but it is fairly trivial compared to the genuine viciousness that goes on here. Please just give him a warning. Make it a last warning if you like. He deserves it, and so do his colleagues who will miss him; and the project will be worse off without him. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 16:45, 19 October 2012 (UTC) Comment by J3MrsI don't really understand why this was brought here, it seems extremely naive to expect anything other than the usual kangaroo court. Some comments appear to be from editors and arbitrators who have seen a name and predictably regurgitated prejudice without reading the context. That some editors do it is to be expected, that some arbitrators do is appalling. I thought (maybe mistakenly) that arbitrators would make judgments based on reasoned argument when all the comments were in, not pile in to display ignorance and prejudice. Inability to act impartially is not good in an arbitrator. Wikipedia needs more editors like Malleus Fatuorum, a lot more, who are prepared to tackle its shortcomings head on rather than those who engage in petty feuding and character assassination. Asking pertinent questions is not disruptive, banning it is. J3Mrs (talk) 08:43, 19 October 2012 (UTC) Comment by GuerilleroNo, just no. If MF is banned indefinitely I will place money on the fact that is will be exactly like the OR ban that should have expired after a year. It will never come off. Sure, he can appeal but the appeal will never get off the ground. This coupled with a indefinite topic ban from speaking about adminship. This is way over the top. --Guerillero | My Talk 15:23, 19 October 2012 (UTC) Statement by pabloThat motion is ludicrously over-the-top and just demonstrates again how far this request has been diverted onto the old familiar track of "blame bad Malleus". Seems to be the easy option for the arbs, but does the project no favours. pablo 15:31, 19 October 2012 (UTC) @JClemens — with absolutely no remaining respect — it is time you resigned. pablo @Drmies — yup. Unbelievable, but true. pablo 11:46, 21 October 2012 (UTC) @Arbs — there is absolutely no (scientists estimate < 0.1% of fuck-all) clarification emerging here. pablo 23:42, 24 October 2012 (UTC) Statement by TorchiestI wasn't going to comment here, but the motion put forward by SirFozzie is inappropriate. This clarification request is not about civility, and no civility enforcement is necessary. It is a matter of recognizing that MF's topic ban from RFA talk pages isn't working correctly, leaving tangential discussions in the RFAs themselves. The solution is restrict the ban to the main WT:RFA page, and enforce staying on topic in individual RFAs. In the last month, MF has done more than a dozen good article reviews, greatly improving people's submissions and helping them to be better editors. He is polite when approached in like fashion, knowledgeable and willing to share that knowledge. He's busy doing all this collaboration everyone keeps making noises about. I almost said something about this a week ago because while people are talking about doing another GAN backlog drive, he's working on it every day. Forget cutting off your nose to spite your face. This is more like cutting off your head. —Torchiest talkedits 15:33, 19 October 2012 (UTC) I just wanted to add that I find it pretty incredible that someone who has received support from almost fifty editors here can be a net negative, not a member of the community, and banned. —Torchiest talkedits 01:52, 21 October 2012 (UTC) I read this article about the writer's experiences on a commune in the 1960s almost twenty years ago, and I keep being reminded of as I watch this unfold. In particular, I find this section quite fascinating:
What's that line about the lessons of history? —Torchiest talkedits 20:45, 22 October 2012 (UTC) Statement by Andy DingleyMoved from the arbitrator voting section on the motion below. Many things would work better if MF would simply drop phrases like "dishonest fucker" from his vocabulary (MF - please). However this is just a witchhunt. A failure to find any useful sanction to stop MF behaving in the offensive way he keeps doing has instead led to a pitchfork chorus. That isn't productive either. A lack of outstanding Dalai Lama-like peacemaking (The Dalai Lama punched Brian Blessed, so I'm sure he could handle MF) is understandable, because that stuff's hard and I certainly don't have the answer. But nor is this it. If we, as a community, have failed to come up with anything better or more effective, that's still no reason to turn into a frustrated lynchmob. MF is a pain and his choice of language can only be seen as a deliberate taunt to the civility police. But even the Dalai Lama says "fuck it" from time to time and we shouldn't play up to MF's taunts, even if he does seem to be chasing "death by [civility] cop". Andy Dingley (talk) 16:42, 19 October 2012 (UTC) Statement by TznkaiI want to remind what everyone the actual stakes are with civility. Wikipedia is a collaborative project to create a reliable, accurate, neutral, and wide ranging information source. There are other ways to create such information sources, but the model we have chosen is collaborative volunteer contributions. One of the core tools we have are standards of contributor behavior, ways we expect you to act so that our environment is one where we can cooperate in our work. Incivility is a problem not because civil behavior is nice with tea and crumpets, incivility is a problem because it poisons our working environment and working relationships. This is a fact, evident in the bad feelings, hostility, and sheer distraction uncivil conduct leaves in its wake. Barring secret advances in artificial intelligence, we all remain human beings, with human vulnerabilities. That means we are prone to being insulted, to demanding answers, and to making face saving and grudges more important than our chosen tasks. Unchecked, bad conduct turns a working environment into a battlefield. There are always excuses, and their always sympathetic cases, but we are here, by our choices, to work, not to get emotional and ideological satisfaction. No contributor is more worthy than another here. I believe that Wikipedia will be around long after anyone commenting on this incident have stopped contributing, but every moment we shape expectations of what behavior is acceptable, and that behavior is what we shall see now and into the future. The questions for the Committee (and also, the community) are simple:
On the recent admin actionsWe've had two blocks related to this case that were swiftly undone. One of Jclemens by Floquenbeam ("Personal attacks or harassment: He's more a "Wikipedian" than you are)" and undone by Alexandria "(Vindictive block)" and one of Malleus Fatuorum by Stephan Shulz "(Personal attacks or harassment)" undone by Boing! said Zebedee "(Malicious block)." I am very disappointed with all four of you. All four of these actions, block or unblock and their justifications pass the laugh test, but upon a minute's consideration its obvious that they were all terrible ideas. So yes, I get the reasons why Floquenbeam found Jclemens' comments to be personal attacks, and why Alexnadria found them to be vindictive, and while Stephan Shulz thought Malleus Fatourum was making personal attacks (N.B. Malleus Fatourum is not an administrator, so his actions are besides the point I am trying to make) and why Boing! said Zebedee thought they were malicious. This is all entirely besides the point. Administrators, among other things, are supposed to have the good judgement and respect of each other not to use their technical access and status to wage battle. We are supposed to, at the very least try talking to each other, and settling things like reasonable people. Your first instinct in a situation like this should not be to push buttons, but to make peace. And if it isn't your first instinct, you need to have enough self control that you can fake it! Is it hard? You bet! But being an administrator means you volunteered to do that hard thing, and that we trusted you to try your damnedest. We're in the middle of a situation where emotions are running high, and people are frustrated. And we are frustrated because people we care about as fellow contributors and human beings, on a project we all love and pour many hours into improving, are getting hurt. I'm not expecting us to all sing Kumbaya and get along, but the occasional attempt at treating people as loyal opposition instead of the enemy would help a lot! Wikipedia, for most of us, is going to be one of our best chances at making a lasting impact, in making the world a better place. Here, we can collect the sum of human knowledge and make it cheaper and freer for all to access. Do not throw that dream away just to turn this into another place to be petty. We have the rest of our lives for that. --Tznkai (talk) 04:15, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
Statement by Peter cohenI see a nose being cut off to spite a face. The purpose of this project is to develop a high quality encyclopedia. The people who actually contribute high quality content are the most important here. It would be nice if they were not rude but if they don't drive away other high quality contgributors, then the rest of us should put up with their ocassional rudeness.--Peter cohen (talk) 18:29, 19 October 2012 (UTC) Statement by SassyLilNugget(Uninvolved) How is it that a simple request for clarification and possible adjustment of MF's topic ban transform into a motion to ban him because of incivility? I cannot word my statement any better than Andy Dingley's and J3Mrs's statements. I find the site ban proposal to be too extreme as it takes the easy way out by not actually trying to work things out and instead avoids everything all together. People need to stop trying to burn others at the stake when some hands are equally as dirty with incivility and try to find other ways to resolve differences. SassyLilNugget (talk) 18:37, 19 October 2012 (UTC) Statement by FloqToo little, too late, evidently, but: The previous ArbCom case included a remedy for Malleus to be banned from an RFA by an uninvolved admin if his participation became disruptive. That's what happened here: Malleus made a personal attack, it was removed, it was not replaced, he was topic banned from the RFA, and made no more edits to the RFA. The motion below appears to be a response to the idea that the previous sanctions failed and the community can't handle this on its own... except the previous sanction did work, and the community handled it just fine on its own. If you were planning on sitebanning Malleus the first time he "disrupted" an RFA, why in the world did you go to the trouble of creating this remedy? --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:38, 19 October 2012 (UTC) Statement by Epipelagic(Uninvolved) The proposed ban by SirFozzie will have a chilling and damaging effect on Wikipedia far outweighing any benefits. Malleus comes from a place in England where the terms he uses are commonplace, and are not associated with the judgements they trigger in other places. A more constructive use of arbitrator time would be to push for the installment of an idiom translator on Wikipedia. An idiom translator would translate idioms that are offensive to certain ears to idioms that those ears do not find offensive. Thus, a user could go to his or her Preferences, and set the translator option to "American Bible Belt Idioms". Then any time "dishonest twat" appeared, it would be translated into an acceptable old testament equivalent, such as "abomination before God". An even more constructive use of arbitrator time would be to work towards reforming dysfunctions in the current administrator system, so content editors like myself could get back to content development, and Malleus would be less likely to be provoked into using one of his native idioms. There is a lot of talk about how the standards that are appropriate to apply to a vandalising IP who has just appeared and seems wholly focused on disrupting Wikipedia are the same standards that should apply to veteran users who have shown massive constructive commitment to Wikipedia. Wikipedia has the bad track record of banning many of its most able and original editors. One wonders what would have happened to some of the figures from the past if they were resurrected as Wikipedia editors. How long would Shakespeare or Neitzche last before arbitrators site banned them? Wikipedia needs a sense of family amongst users who have been here for many years, and have made huge and highly competent contributions, whether they have been in content building or on administrative matters. It is not okay to use the same standards with such users you would apply to a vandalising IP. Arbitrators seem to be losing a sense of proportion. --Epipelagic (talk) 19:44, 19 October 2012 (UTC) @ Malleus: I know you are not going to listen, but you should stop using those idioms. You know perfectly well it provokes certain people. Grow up and stop provoking them. @ Editors in general: Until the idiom translator is installed on Wikipedia, when you notice Malleus has used one of his idioms, please replace it with an old testament equivalent. @ Arbitrators: Instead of proceeding further down this destructive and unskilful path, please pass a motion giving editors the right to edit Malleus's idioms to comply with bible belt standards. --Epipelagic (talk) 19:44, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
Well, there it is. An unnecessary, deeply destructive and unskilled decision by arbitrators who totally disregarded the community will clearly expressed on this page. --Epipelagic (talk) 01:20, 21 October 2012 (UTC) Statement by ChedMy thoughts are very much along the lines of what Floq has stated more concisely than I can. I'll also add a couple points that I've considered. Malleus is very much our own creation, and the elephant in the room is more how he was treated from day one, than how he treats others. People are not treated equally here. Policies are not enforced in a consistent manner. Honesty is not something that is respected - and more often than not the place is run on who can game the system the best. In the end, Malleus does more in article creation, improvement, referencing, and cleanup than just about any 10 other users put together. The fact that he's painfully blunt at times upsets people; but when you talk to him, rather than at him - you'll quickly see that you'll usually get as much respect in return as you offer. I've disagreed with Malleus at times - but discussion with him has always been fruitful. He explains why he thinks and feels the way he does. He also listens to anything put forward in a respectful and intelligent manner. I agree that he has a low threshold for Bullsquirt - but this project is supposed to be about building an encyclopedia; not role-playing games. The original request here as I understand it was for some clarification on how to deal with discussions being moved to a venue where he's been told he's not allowed to participate. Now we're talking about banning him. Self-fulfilling prophecy perhaps - but a witch hunt nonetheless. We are a very diverse group of people, and our cultures vary greatly. If we've created something distasteful, then we should be trying to fix it rather than throwing it out. If we're trying to build a better playground for children, perhaps you take this "ban him, block him" approach; but, if you're trying to build factual, mature, encyclopedic project - then there are times where children must be told their behavior is not acceptable. Sometimes the best way to do that is to simply call "a little shit", a little shit quite clearly. The short version is: I disagree with banning Malleus. — ChedZILLA 20:54, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
Objection by Reaper EternalI try to avoid commenting on ArbCom motions as much as I can, but I happened to notice that AGK (talk · contribs) has commented below that "Malleus is a net negative." I cannot comprehend how anybody who has reviewed this many good article nominations: <collapsed list of 244 articles> written this many featured articles: <collapsed list of 39 articles>
and this many good articles: <collapsed list of 22 articles> and contributed copyedits innumerable could possibly be a "net negative" to the project. Reaper Eternal (talk) 21:21, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
In one final statement, I have to ask: Is this an edit that somebody not dedicated to the project would ever make? Malleus is (was) far more committed to improving the quality of Wikipedia than many in the Arbitration Committee. In the end, then, I can only echo Newyorkbrad (talk · contribs): I'm deeply, deeply saddened. Reaper Eternal (talk) 00:25, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
Meermin (VOC ship)
Objection by CeoilPer Reaper Eternal. This has turned into a pincer movement, and the speed at which it is being executed is breathtaking. You have now backed him into a corner and know full well that 6 months will in effect be a lifelong exit. Chilling indeed. Whats being missed is that MF has a point, is typically right in what he's saying, but gets gamed into corners like this. But whatever, well done guys. Ceoil (talk) 21:38, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
Futile plea by 28bytesIs this the spot where uninvolved observers can request ArbCom not ban one of our hardest working editors? If so, I'd like to do so, futile though it may be, given how these things tend to snowball so quickly. My first interaction with Malleus was an acrimonious encounter during my own RfA, where he said something I didn't like, then I said something snarky back to him, and so on. I later realized my response wasn't fair, apologized for it, and long story short Malleus ended up offering, and I quote, a "group hug." I'm so glad it transpired that way instead of a third party noticing our squabbling and taking it to a noticeboard where all sorts of people with axes to grind could take a shot at him, and all sorts of people who are tired of seeing people take a shot at him would take a shot at me. Letting arguments work their way to their natural conclusion – which is often, but not always, a better appreciation of each other's points – is a healthy thing in a collaborative environment. He's really a quite reasonable fellow if you deal with him honestly and don't try to play civility gotcha with him. 28bytes (talk) 21:49, 19 October 2012 (UTC) @Reaper Eternal: I quite liked your statement. It was a wonderful illustration. It's a shame they redacted it. 28bytes (talk) 21:49, 19 October 2012 (UTC) @Jclemens, with all due respect, I must join Rschen7754, Newyorkbrad, regentspark and the other editors who find your comment ("It's time to face the fact that Malleus is not now, nor has he ever been, a member of the Wikipedia community") beyond the pale. 28bytes (talk) 02:28, 20 October 2012 (UTC) Statement by SitushI agree with the comments of numerous people above, the most recent of which being Ceoil, Reaper Eternal & 28bytes. There is something really, really wrong with how this Request is being handled and it does not reflect well on Arbcom. I didn't intend to sign up to a system where a small group of people could ignore a larger group and even hold a !vote that was closed to the rest of the community on a matter that was not referred to them by that community. The ban motion is an abuse of process, imo, and the manner in which the general discussion was allowed to become twisted off-topic very early on is symptomatic of a deep-rooted problem that is not Malleus but rather systemic. - Sitush (talk) 21:51, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
Statement by ModernistThis is a bad move and a mistake. Drop the stick; count to 200 and modify the proposal. Six hours, maybe six days might suffice...Modernist (talk) 22:24, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
Statement by TruthkeeperI've taken a bit of time to look at the specific incident. At 00:59 Malleus posts a perfectly valid and completely true comment [19]. At 1:17 a "civility" warning is issued [20] which clearly is pointy and baiting. Yesterday (10/18) Malleus posts a perfectly valid oppose based on copyright issues [21] (ironically at the time when I was fighting to keep copyvio off the main page, and the subject of multiple personal attacks, but the attacking editor didn't get blocked). The way I see it, Malleus is a., making valid opposes, b., being baited, and c., !voting in the interest of the project. We need to slow down here and look at the evidence of this specific incident. Also I'm opposed per ReaperElement and Ceoil. There's no reason to rush into this. I've only noticed it a few hours ago and only now read it. Give the community a chance to catch up. Truthkeeper (talk) 22:40, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
Objection by Alf.laylah.wa.laylahThis should stop right now. If the Arbitration Committee is going to function the way it's supposed to function it cannot act like a bunch of terrorists. If any minor request to the committee can be escalated into a ban or some other draconian outcome then no one with any sense of decency is going to make such a request. That will leave only those without a sense of decency making requests, probably for indecent reasons. In turn that will make the Arbitration Committee useless for solving the real problems of writing a real encyclopedia. I'm not going to argue for my opinion that Malleus is by far one of the most valuable contributors to Wikipedia because others have done that better than I'd be able to. But I think that the arbitrators voting in favor of this absurd motion need to stop and consider the harm that they are doing to whatever credibility and utility the Arbitration Committee might have left after this fiasco has progressed this far.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 23:26, 19 October 2012 (UTC) @AGK, @SilkTork: You say "Comments above where people are responding as though this motion is about one incident are perhaps either not aware of MF's profile or are wishing to only focus on that incident to make this motion appear unreasonable." No, I'm responding as though this motion is about one incident because this case is about one incident. It's not even really about an incident. It's about a request for clarification. If arbitrators want to ban Malleus for persistent incivility, let them open an RfC/U or a community ban proposal like any editor is able to do. Allowing a minor request for clarification to escalate into a ban by motion is immensely destructive of the process of running this community. It's perfectly consistent to be in favor of banning Malleus (although I am not) and yet be opposed to banning him by motion of the Arbitration Committee in the course of a request for clarification. Please, I beg you, address the case that is before you with remedies that are appropriate to the case. If there is are good enough reasons to ban Malleus, do it through an appropriate process. — alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 16:31, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
I am very sorry it's come to this. I will be proud, in the future, to call myself a net negative to the project. — alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 00:50, 21 October 2012 (UTC) Statement by The Devil's AdvocateFundamentally, editing Wikipedia is about writing an informative encyclopedia. When talking of disruption on Wikipedia, it comes down to whose actions are disrupting this effort and whose actions are enabling this effort. Too often I see admins interpreting disruption to mean "annoys people and gets a lot of negative attention", which is basically how gossipy school girls and jocks determine who gets to be respected in their student body. Unfortunately, society at large operates like a more surreptitious and sanctimonious version of that same social system so it is not surprising this same human ailment seeps its way into our processes, but it doesn't mean we have to be just another recurring instance of this moral infestation. I am far more inclined to consider a bluntly honest and insulting individual who just wants to contribute on matters of interest to him or her to be a valuable asset to this project, than someone who treats Wikipedia as a vendetta engine while speaking soft words when the teachers are about. Reaper provided a very long list of articles where Malleus has made critical contributions. Even as this drama-fest is going on he is continuing to make such contributions. Blocks are meant to be about prevention, not punishment. So, what are we preventing exactly? I encourage the Arbs to consider that sometimes sanctions are a source of far greater disruption to improving this encyclopedia than the conduct for which an editor is being sanctioned. Under these circumstances, a ban of six months for an editor whose longest blocks have never exceeded a week and who continuously makes valuable contributions seems more like preventishment.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 23:50, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
I didn't get the memo. When did ANI and RFAR get merged?--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 22:03, 22 October 2012 (UTC) Statement by Martinevans123MF's inciviltiy to me personally is the reason I have considered retirement from Wikipedia since 13 August (see my Talk Page). I have no particular interest in this latest alleged breach of ArbCom sanction, although RfA is perhaps a particularly important forum for the continued good management of the project. I do not particularly wish to see MF blocked for six months (as has now been proposed), as he is a good content contributor, and he has a keen eye for editorial hypocrisy in all its guises. But I simply wish him to see that Wikipedia content is not always necessarily more important than collaboration with other editors. I have not wasted my time in asking him for an apology, and naturally I have not expected one. While I agree with Dr Blofeld that content is really "what matters", I have come to the conclusion that no single editor can assume that the common decencies of civility need never apply to them. Even if they are from Manchester. Martinevans123 (talk) 00:22, 20 October 2012 (UTC) Statement by Sun Creator
Regards, Sun Creator(talk) 02:30, 20 October 2012 (UTC) Statement by 31.193.138.225Isn't this strange that power-hungry users who produce very little encyclopedic content are supporting the ban of one of the best contributor. 31.193.138.225 (talk) 01:31, 20 October 2012 (UTC) Statement by Cyberpower678I usually lurk around ArbCom but choose not to get involved in the cases because I am neither a clerk, an ArbCom member, or having something constructive to contribute. To possibly see this motion go through disgusts and angers me. Has ArbCom gone fucking insane? Ban someone for being uncivil? Really? Malleus is a net negaitive? After all of the articles he wrote? AGK, what the hell is wrong with you? I am here to echo Reaper Eternal's statements. I am not going to write any more because I fear I may write something I may regret or become disruptive.—cyberpower OfflineTrick or Treat 19:18, 22 October 2012 (UTC) Indignant statement by Leontopodium alpinumIs this a joke? You people worry about editor retention, and then in the next moment want to railroad out one of the best and hardest working editors here on Wikipedia? Malleus is the guy who will help you with an article the day after they shit all over his talk page. Malleus is that committed to creating content here. And you people have the guts to pull this crap? Sorry, but "civility" as a pillar is patently ridiculous and extremely subjective. You all cannot possibly wish to remove such a valuable resource as Malleus because some editors whine about hurt feelings. We are here to build and encyclopedia, and your feelings are of minimal importance toward that goal. Nothing he's said has even been very extreme. Who the hell can't deal with being called a "twat"? Anyone who has feelings hurt by this valuable editor has the option of simply not interacting with him. It's their problem if they can't drop the stick. MF is worth 100 of any spineless editors who can't deal with him and choose not to disengage. The real twats are the members of ArbCom if they seriously believe they can pass such a ridiculous motion without it hurting the real goal of this project. Don't be surprised if a lot of editors leave in solidarity if this passes. Leontopodium alpinum (talk) 02:09, 20 October 2012 (UTC) Comment by HeimEverybody here: There's no better time to fork. The rot at Wikipedia has set in strongly, and the current motion clarifies this. People care more about nice behaviour than content. FORK. DITCH THE HELLHOLE. Make a better one somewhere else. One where content is valued above conduct. And please let me know when you do so I can join it and scramble my password at this shitsite. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 03:43, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
Comment by SpacemanSpiffIt's probably long overdue that we should have content take a back seat to having tea and crumpets, after all the marketing ploy of "an encyclopedia that..." couldn't continue for long. So, true to the "anyone can edit" bit, we will continue to drive away good contributors in favor of the anyones, partly because of the laziness of some of us other editors and partly because of the power grabs by others. This ban is just one symptom of the larger malaise that affects Wikipedia. Of course Malleus would be missed far more than many of those that voted for this ban -- as a reader, I can remember far too many articles written by him that I've enjoyed, especially in topics that I have no interest in, but can't recall reading a single such contribution by any of those in support of this ban -- and it leaves no doubt in my mind about who is a "Wikipedian" or a "net negative". When this ban does pass, I would encourage all editors to re-evaluate their participation in this farce of a project, for we have given our approval to this witch-hunt and pitchforking with our silence so far. —SpacemanSpiff 04:21, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
Comment by YoureallycanThe wiki has become a bit out of control, cliques of users attacking each other - demanding bans - poking and provoking the users in the opposing groups - rather than focusing on content improvement - this is what needs addressing. Malleus is one of the most magnificent wikipedians and I salute him for all his content creations, banning him for speaking out at the problems here is not the solution it is more a part of the problem - please stop all this us and them focus of groups here at en wiki - ... for his , you are not and have never been a wikipedian - comment, diff - I predict User:Jclemens will either stand down or be voted off any committee he is on in the very near future, and I fully support his removal or resignation. User:AGK and User:Hersfold comments here seem undue also - I support Malleus staying even though Hersfold says he will leave if Malleus stays, in fact I support Malleus more because of that. Youreallycan 05:02, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
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“ | A rude, disrespectful, uncivil climate at work can make workers miserable, resulting in higher turnover, lower productivity, and lost customers. | ” |
“ | “Revenge,” agreed our experts, is probably “too strong a word” to describe the behaviors enacted by
targets of incivility, who are often questioning the instigator’s intent and are, therefore, less likely to react with a vengeful objective. But reciprocating with “general ill will” (as cited by one manager), displacing that ill will on another colleague, or directing that ill will toward nobody in particular were very common responses of participants in all workplace settings. |
” |
“ | In some cases, participants believed that in their organizations, leaders often appeared to hope that incivility would go away, rather than taking action to correct it. Some voiced concern about the apparent tolerance of incivility by organizations, by managers, and by senior executives. Many saw senior managers as unwilling or ill equipped to deal with the phenomenon and, therefore, unlikely
to intervene on the target’s behalf:
Others inferred incompetence and distrust to non-responsive leaders:
|
” |
Statement by Squeamish Ossifrage
I don't remember coming to any of the 'drama boards' before, certainly not this one. I'm not an admin, or a FA author. I'm just a guy. Mostly, I bail crappy article out of the hock at AFD by finding sources that nobody bothered to look for. My first real article development project is months in labor, and still isn't done yet. My only interactions with Malleus have been basing the templating of my user page off of his because it looked really slick (and I'm still inexpert at template formatting), and wishing I could churn out content at the rate he does it. I'm really only here to say two things.
First, a lot of the comments here have been about who is a net positive or what might drive editors away. Someone apparently did a study that found that we hemorrhage a lot of people to bad interactions with other editors. I don't know how often admins or arbitrators get to go down in the trenches on articles that aren't GAs and FAs, but let me tell you, the bad interactions with other editors on this project aren't reading someone use the word "fuck" or being called a "twat". Or whatever other profanity was apparently used at some point. Below all the shiny bits with the gold stars and the green circles and the A-list contributions is a sea of SEO operatives, people warring and often sockpuppetting to keep themselves or their band on the project without any manner of sources, cultural warriors with minimal English skills, and outright hoaxers. Those are bad interactions with other editors. Those are what drive people away from the project. It'd be novel if someone swore at me on a talk page while reverting my edits, because that would indicate that I'm in a disagreement with a human being, instead of someone frequently indistinguishable from a bot. Combine that with the fact that anyone new who takes the time to learn how to report people to AIV or ANI, or to submit an article to AFD, is suspicious because they might be the returning incarnation of a banned editor. Between those two pincers, I almost didn't bother ever becoming an editor here (not that I've accomplished half of what I'd hoped). I almost wasn't a Wikipedian.
And so second, I'm going to speak above my pay grade and urge the committee to close this thing without action. Maybe Malleus needs to be sanctioned. Maybe he doesn't. I don't know, I'm not really familiar with any of the background here, and I've got better things to do with what little time I can devote to this project. Writing articles, for example, albeit slowly. Sourcing stuff. But I believe that a statement has been made by a sitting arbitrator that poisons the well. This is supposed to be a community. Everyone talks about community standards, community consensus. It's always easier to keep someone out of a community than to kick them out once they are in. One of the people elected -- by this community -- to enforce our standards on our behalf leveled a finger and said that an editor here -- a very prolific and successful editor -- isn't part of the community. Never was. And all the strikethrough in the world won't make that statement go away. Poisoning the well uses unfavorable information to force an implicit conclusion. "He's been in jail, so we can't trust him." "That's made in China, so it's junk." "He was never one of us, and we should ban him." I don't have any personal interest in what happens to Malleus. I don't know him, and I don't really know his work except by summary. But make a stand for the quality of argument here, and show that this sort of thing isn't acceptable, now or ever. If that means you're back here a month from now, so be it; arbitration is what you were elected to do, anyway. But at least there won't be any question that everyone involved is a Wikipedian. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 14:37, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
Statement by Hasteur
The community has been charged with writing policy to define incivility and define what sanctions are for violating it. Some members of the editing corps have been requested, reminded, warned, and sanctioned in regards to their communication with other members. That individual members who are beyond a shadow of doubt in respect to people finding their communications offensive at times are unable to restrain themselves is also telling. Regardless of an individual editors contributions to the project, the chorus of supporters chanting "More good than harm", and their previous soft treatment, it is the community's responsibility to deal with editors who are disruptive of the project. While the debate of "What is Civility?" rages across various RfCs, we have more perceived infractions of the policy (replete with hasty blocks and even hastier unblocks). As I suggested in the previous RfArb, it is time for the committee to take this in hand and deal with the intransigent issues presented by members the community. Hasteur (talk) 18:36, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
Statement by Adjwilley
As an alternative to the 6-month ban, I'd suggest this simple approach:
- If Malleus makes a personal attack he will be open to a simple 24-hour block by an uninvolved administrator. This is not to say that he should be blocked, but if an offended party comes complaining he can be blocked. (Administrators should obviously try to use their best judgement.)
- Talk page access will be removed, and there will be no appeals or unblocks. This will cut down on the drama and wheel warring.
- The "civility block" length will not be increased or escalated for repeated offenses. This ensures that Malleus won't be blocked for ridiculous lengths of time.
- The block length will not be decreased either. It needs to be enough of an annoyance to Malleus so that he will be motivated to change his behavior.
Observations by Dianna
Please have a look at these user pages when you have a minute. JClemens in particular needs to view them:
- User talk:John
- User:Floquenbeam
- User:Boing! said Zebedee
- User talk:Drmies
- User:Pablo X
- User talk:Sitush
- User talk:RegentsPark
- User talk:SpacemanSpiff
- User talk:Black Kite
- User talk:ThatPeskyCommoner
- User:Nortonius
- User talk:Beetstra
- User talk:Giano
Wikipedia is like the Titanic; it can not sink!
— Dianna (talk) 19:36, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
Disgust from Pesky
- You can add me to that list User talk:ThatPeskyCommoner I can't be arsed with this shitty place right now. It stinks. Pesky (talk) 07:58, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
And for any Arb who sees themselves as being part of that subset, I'd like to add that I'm saying this with all due respect. Block me if you like – why would I care about the opinions of people who pervert the course of WikiJustice in this way? Pesky (talk) 09:59, 23 October 2012 (UTC) Oh, yes ... and someone can email me when Wikipedia comes up with a process for a vote of no confidence in ArbCom. Pesky (talk) 10:15, 23 October 2012 (UTC) I'm copying this over here from the talk, just for those who haven't read / don't want to read over there: Just for clarification: the reason I have "no confidence" in ArbCom as a whole doesn't in any way diminish my respect for those of them who are capable of showing honesty, integrity, and an ability to look at the question which was actually asked as opposed to leaping onto a witch-hunt bandwagon. For those Arbs (and we can see who they are), I would have no hesitation in re-electing them. It's when ArbCom can be infiltrated by enough of the other sort, the power-grabbing, axe-wielding, incompetent, vindictive morons who apparently lack the ability to understand and respond to the question which was actually asked, to affect their decisions ... that's when I lose faith in it. When the incompetent can outvote the intelligent, we have a problem. Pesky (talk) 06:09, 24 October 2012 (UTC) Calling someone a twat, or the anatomical descriptor of your choice, is uncivil, but perverting the course of justice is just fine? Really? I know which one of the two would get someone a hefty jail term in Real Life™, and it's not the name-calling. I wish someone could do the normally-accepted thing, and just hat the off-topic comments (called "motions", here). I've been told (possibly wrongly) that only Nadmins should use the hat template. I suggest that one or more of the more-intelligent Arbs could do this. Pesky (talk) 07:37, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
Agreement with Pesky
- What Pesky said (except about an email, I'll keep an eye on things while they're still in motion). Nortonius (talk) 11:06, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
Questions from Bencherlite
@Arbcom, re motion 2 (which is now passing) - just to try and get some clarification for the community (including Malleus) as to what would and would not be permitted by the topic ban. I set out what I would understand the ban to cover - if I'm wrong, please correct me. I would humbly suggest that the wording of the topic ban and the wording of any exceptions to it be water-tight, because if not we'll have further blocks or requests for clarification/banning before long.
The wording is currently this: "Malleus is topic banned from making edits concerning the RFA process anywhere on the English Wikipedia. As an exception, he may ask questions of the candidates and express his own !vote on a specific RFA, but may not engage in threaded discussions on RFA, or in a specific RFA."
- Somebody launches Wikipedia:Requests for adminship reform 2013. Malleus cannot participate either directly or by expressing his views at (e.g.) his talk page because of his topic ban. So far, so good (in terms of interpretation of the topic ban).
- An editor asks Malleus on his talk page (specifically or in passing) about his views on RFA in general. Presumably he cannot reply, apart from saying that he cannot reply on the topic of RFA because of this topic ban. Again, so far, so good.
- An editor asks Malleus on his talk page about a question that Malleus has posted on a particular RFA (as the motion allows him to do). Presumably he cannot reply to this editor at all (either on his talk page, the questioner's talk page or at the RFA), apart from saying at his/the questioner's talk page that he cannot reply because of this topic ban.
- Malleus posts a question on an RFA (as the motion allows him to do) and another user (whether the candidate or not) asks for clarification either on the RFA or (as in example 3) at Malleus's talk page. Presumably he cannot reply to this editor at all (either on his talk page, the questioner's talk page or at the RFA), apart from saying at his/the questioner's talk page that he cannot reply because of this topic ban, because he would otherwise be engaged in threaded discussions in a specific RFA. (Is this a necessary restriction?)
- Malleus posts a question on an RFA and receives an answer. Presumably he cannot post a follow-up question, either as part of the same question section or as a new section, because he would otherwise be engaged in threaded discussions in a specific RFA.
- Malleus is mentioned by another editor (fairly or unfairly) during an RFA in which Malleus has not participated. Presumably Malleus cannot reply anywhere, either at the RFA or at someone's talk page or at (e.g.) ANI, because he would then be breached his topic ban about making edits concerning the RFA process or engaging in a threaded discussion on RFA or a specific RFA. His only remedy is to leave a !vote or question for the candidate. (Is that fair?)
- An editor takes exception to the views expressed by Malleus when !voting at an RFA and leaves a comment under his !vote. Presumably, whatever the wording used by the editor (however inaccurate or impolite), Malleus cannot reply at the RFA because he would be engaging in threaded discussion at an RFA, which is not permitted by this topic ban, and he cannot reply at the editor's talk page apart from saying that he cannot reply at the RFA because of this topic ban. In other words, he cannot address any criticisms made of him or his views/edits/behaviour/etc during an RFA, whatever the provocation. (Is that fair?)
If these are the results in each case that the committee intend, that's fine, and everyone will know where they stand. If not, but you can see how I've reached the conclusions I have given the current wording, please clarify the wording as much as possible in fairness to participants at RFA, those "policing" such discussions, those who might be asked to enforce alleged breaches of the topic ban with a block, yourselves or your successors, and (of course) Malleus. BencherliteTalk 21:09, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
Comments by Richwales
I'm a very, very strong believer in civility — and until a short time ago, I was leaning toward throwing the book at MF unless he cleaned up his act immediately. What I think caused me to moderate my view was something that happened with me recently on an article's talk page, where another editor started accusing me of incivility because of a term I was using (in reference to third parties, and not even directed at the objecting editor). As it turns out, there is virtually no evidence that the word in question is in fact widely considered offensive (I'm not going to mention the word or provide a link to the article in question here, BTW, so as not to inappropriately distract the discussion here) — but the other editor continued to insist it was an uncouth word and that our using it betrayed bias in our editing of the article in question. Although I thought, and still think, that the word this one editor was arguing with me over is not even close to being in the same class as the words MF often uses, the experience did get me thinking about where we should draw the line. So, now, I'm surprised to find myself more inclined than before — where civility questions are involved — to "be conservative in what I do and be liberal in what I accept from others".
That's how I feel for now regarding the civility issue. Off-topic tirades are another matter, and I see no problem with discretionary sanctions allowing any uninvolved admin to nip inappropriate trolling, baiting, or off-topic material posted at an RfA by anyone (not just by MF). I think this would be far more constructive in the long run than any additional sanctions directed specifically at MF would be. Whatever some people (maybe including myself) may think of MF's coarser side, it seems clear to me that there is not a true consensus for lowering the boom on him. If I were an arb, I might possibly support the current motion #2, but nothing stronger than this for the time being. — Richwales 06:15, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
Comment by TParis
@Ihardlythinkso: In response to the "Malleus never initiates incivility, only responds to it", I disagree. On April 4, I made this edit to which Malleus accused me of a personal attack. It's not all that incriminating, but last I checked calling something a personal attack that's not is in itself a personal attack. I'm not saying it's block worthy and I certainly didn't go run off to WP:ANI about it, but I do want to point out that Malleus can be sensitive to personal attacks himself while at the same time expecting insensitivity in others.--v/r - TP 20:05, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
There's no accusation in the link you offered. Also, how can you claim to know what Mallues expects in others? (Perhaps he doesn't expect "insensivity" if leveling an incivility for an incivility, perhaps he even means for it to *sting*. Duh.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 06:48, 25 October 2012 (UTC)That's fine if you want to stick up for your friend, but "And you are now getting perilously close to a personal attack yourself" is an accusation (and chilling) and insisting it's not is another example of how his friends will stretch reality as far as necessary to protect him. I was no where in the realm of personal attacks in my discussion with him. No other way to put it. Yes, we all know he means for it to *sting*, that's the problem. He wants to hurt others so they take him seriously. "how can you claim to know what Mallues expects in others" Again, worthless argument. How do you know OJ didn't do it? How do you know Reagan isn't an alien from Mars? How do you know Albert Einstein wasn't from the future? How do you know your parents aren't secret agents? It's not necessary to prove something beyond the most insane doubt. Only that we make reasonable inferences based on his actions. That's how someone "claim to know" thing about Malleus.--v/r - TP 13:31, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
...I just want to add that there needs to be a lot more {{Cookie}}s and a lot less {{Trout}}s here. Way too much blood being spilled. It's disappointing seeing over 100 editors going at each other with thermonuclear warheads, a number of administrators and editors storming off in a huff, and poor Dennis trying to clean the lower 9th ward with his swiffer.--v/r - TP 20:15, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
Comments by Tryptofish
This whole business just makes me sad. I don't think that a six-month ban is a good idea. I've seen at least some of the RfA interactions between Malleus and NYB, and I don't think they were really that bad. We need to allow for editors who try to speak truth to power. On the other hand, I have a lot of sympathy for what MatthewTownsend said above, and I had the misfortune of being there when some related discussion took place: please see [29] and the accompanying discussion. It had nothing to do with RfA, but plenty to do with civility, as it applies to the editing environment in which we all (try to) work. I also think that the discussion on this page has included way too much over-the-top invective directed at the Arbitrators, and I hope that they won't be disheartened by it. At this point, I think that it may be worth opening a full case, instead of trying to deal with it by motions. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:37, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
Comment by Gatoclass
The problem of valued contributors who also engage in incivility is one that has been around for a long time now, but it seems that Wikipedia still hasn't managed to find an effective solution.
In lieue of these endless moots in which bans may or may not be handed out but the underlying problem is not addressed, perhaps it's time we at least tried to come up with a simple and clear procedure for dealing with such issues that won't disrupt the project, waste huge amounts of the community's time and energy, or cause us to needlessly lose the contributions of otherwise useful editors. Surely it couldn't be that difficult? Gatoclass (talk) 11:24, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
- MF: There are, obviously, ways to express yourself without resorting to name calling and such. And I believe all the back and forth is actually off-topic, pertain to this request. Let's -try- to keep it on topic, without this spiraling out of control. - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 10:30, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- KW: (1) I would said I did, but consider it was via a mailing list I can provide you no proof of that. (2) I said what I said just now because MF responds with a little more hostility (for some reason), and I feel that there are better ways to state himself without having to do so. The back-and-forth off-topic comment was actually meant for all parties involved, not just MF, but considering I appended it to a comment at MF, I can see why you would think it was only directed at him. - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 15:23, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- KW (part 2): It seems I missed something in your original statement. Clerks were told to remove instances of personal attacks on here by MF, and I personally determined that it'd be better for him to self-edit, rather than me doing a (comparatively) blanket removal. And I was, in a sense, trying to make sure things aren't heated enough (to the point of a siteban being proposed, for example). - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 20:42, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- Sitush: It has been brought up at clerks-l. However, the motion suggested doesn't quite address the original remedy (i.e. needs much copy-edit). Granted copy-editing is done many, many times by ArbCom, even to a passing motion... - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 21:23, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
- I am beginning the process of enacting Motion #2. Please limit changes to this request to avoid edit conflicts. Thanks, Lord Roem (talk) 18:57, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
Arbitrator views and discussion
- Okay, awaiting more statements, but, I've got to say that Franamax has one thing absolutely right, so I'll quote that; "Malleus is at absolutely zero risk if someone else moves their signed posts to talk, only if they place the post on talk themselves." Someone's post can't be moved to a page they're banned from, and then blocked for violation of a topic ban, that would be a huge miscarriage of justice. Courcelles 04:21, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Though this looks like a crystal clear violation of the remedy... (The remedy is not that MF is not allowed to take part in WT:RFA discussions, it is he is not allowed to edit the pages, full stop.) Courcelles 04:25, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- @MF What in the world does that have to do with your violation of the topic ban? Especially since the record shows you were not blocked for the infraction? Courcelles 04:31, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Mongo, you are mistaken. The remedy says "indefinitely topic banned from any page whose prefix begins with Wikipedia talk:Requests for Adminship.", this includes both the main WT:RFA page, and the talk page of all individual RFA's, and any other pages that might exist with their names starting with that string. Courcelles 05:14, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- @Rschen7754... if he doesn't change, at all? I suspect there will be a motion much like SirFozzie's below, and it won't have any trouble gathering the votes to go through. We can debate if it should pass in this scenario, but it almost surely would. I feel totally confident saying we won't sit here and keep on carving places on the project Malleus is banned from, because, after a while we won't do that for anyone. Courcelles 04:46, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- Mongo, you are mistaken. The remedy says "indefinitely topic banned from any page whose prefix begins with Wikipedia talk:Requests for Adminship.", this includes both the main WT:RFA page, and the talk page of all individual RFA's, and any other pages that might exist with their names starting with that string. Courcelles 05:14, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- @MF What in the world does that have to do with your violation of the topic ban? Especially since the record shows you were not blocked for the infraction? Courcelles 04:31, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Though this looks like a crystal clear violation of the remedy... (The remedy is not that MF is not allowed to take part in WT:RFA discussions, it is he is not allowed to edit the pages, full stop.) Courcelles 04:25, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Courcelles is correct, there is no violation if someone else moves the posts. Of course, such movement doesn't enable subsequent replies from Malleus, so it would be effectively ending his participation in the discussion. Which begs the question... if it was a "discussion" suitable for the talk page anyways, why should it ever be moved back to the main RfA page solely to enable Malleus' participation? Jclemens (talk) 04:24, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- @Truthkeeper, baiting someone else into incivility is inappropriate, but ultimately, it is the "baitee" who is responsible for his or her own conduct. I think the committee and the community in general have been appropriately lenient, if not perhaps a bit too much so, when people have veered into incivility for understandable reasons... however, there comes a point when such excuses, levied on another user's behalf, ring hollow. Jclemens (talk) 01:55, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- @NYB, you're of course welcome to disagree with me, and you certainly won't be the only arbitrator to do so, but I've said what I did for a very specific reason: Policy-based consensus needs to take into account the policies that the community is simply not allowed to challenge. BLP, Copyvio, CHILDPROTECT... these are all not subject to community consensus, and I think it's high time we recognized, out loud and in public, that all the pillars are just as non-negotiable. Fact is, the reason we've had such a hard time as a committee is that there are a handful of arbitrators who don't see things this way. I would challenge you or any of the others to articulate an ethical and internally consistent argument explaining why editors can be allowed to ignore the fourth pillar in isolation, but anyone ignoring any other pillar is quickly banned without much fanfare. Jclemens (talk) 02:03, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- @Rschen7754, the intent is not to insult Malleus; he has made plenty of positive contributions here, and the point is to actually acknowledge them... while at the same time noting their insufficiency in the absence of fourth pillar-upholding behavior. Believe me, this is not simply about Malleus in my mind, but he's the one guy who's contributed enough such that the differences of opinion over civility vs. content contributions have placed him in the spotlight... again, and again, and again. I'm not sure how many times I've said I wished that Malleus would simply stop being rude and continue his positive contributions, and I've been far from alone in that desire. BUT, given that he hasn't ever really responded to such encouragements, admonishments, or the like... my statement stands, as much as I wish I had never actually needed to make it. Jclemens (talk) 02:10, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- @Rschen7754, the target of my statement is not Malleus; it would have been entirely possible, and a lot less hassle, to simply sign my name in support of the motion. The "not a Wikipedian" comment is a statement of reality as I see it, articulating my pillars-centric view of the expectations of Wikipedians. It's more important, in my mind, for discussion to be framed in such a manner than it is to ban Malleus. The community has banned plenty of other editors in the past; the committee's role in actually banning people should continue to wane as the community continues expanding its tools to do so. Jclemens (talk) 03:05, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- @Tznkai, While you might limit the ranks of non-Wikipedians to "stalkers, child molesters, and other predators", I think I was pretty clear that I included in that category "Vandals, POV-pushers, self-promoters, and copyright violators"--that is, anyone who fails to follow one or more pillars flagrantly. As far as comments "destructive to collaborative editing environment", I personally believe those who have supported Malleus on the basis that content creation trumped, excused, or otherwise made up for chronic incivility have contributed far more to the sitewide neglect of the fourth pillar than Malleus himself ever could have. Malleus, after all, is just one editor. Jclemens (talk) 02:49, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- Recuse. See statement above. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:10, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- My first thought is as follows: The topic ban was placed on MF to minimize the disruption caused at RfA. As this request shows, the method we used has not removed the disruption. It is time to consider a harsher method to make sure the disruption stops. SirFozzie (talk) 21:22, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Malleus, you have two options. A) Cease the personal attacks or B) Face the consequences (up to and including blocks/bans). I cannot say it plainer, you have been given more rope then just about any user I can remember during my time on Wikipedia. You will abide by policies against such attacks, or you will face sanctions for violating those policies. SirFozzie (talk) 03:05, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- @MF, I would say your continued presence causing these issues is inherently disruptive. Your method of collaborating with other users, as proven in this request and elsewhere, is inherently disruptive. You have been given more then enough leeway with your opinions on RfA and its processes, and working with other editors, and you've used all of it up. SirFozzie (talk)
- @MF: This is where I disagree with you. YOU are the cause of your problems, this "Firestorm in a teacup". You have been unduly confrontational, and have stooped to attacks unworthy of someone of your ability. You are and have been disruptive in this (and other) areas. The fact that you see nothing wrong with calling other people dishonest fuckers, dishonest twats, etcetera is mind boggling. You wouldn't act that way to people's faces without people confronting you on your behavior, so why do you think that you could get away with it here? SirFozzie (talk) 03:27, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- $MF: In a work environment (which one could somewhat reasonably compare Wikipedia to), you have to work with people you find disagreeable. Just like in a work environment in which you would likely face termination if you called a colleague a "dishonest fucker". So yes, you can call people that if you wish, but don't be surprised that there's consequences to such actions. SirFozzie (talk) 03:37, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- @MF: This is where I disagree with you. YOU are the cause of your problems, this "Firestorm in a teacup". You have been unduly confrontational, and have stooped to attacks unworthy of someone of your ability. You are and have been disruptive in this (and other) areas. The fact that you see nothing wrong with calling other people dishonest fuckers, dishonest twats, etcetera is mind boggling. You wouldn't act that way to people's faces without people confronting you on your behavior, so why do you think that you could get away with it here? SirFozzie (talk) 03:27, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- I am concerned that MF is being brought before us again. SilkTork ✔Tea time 21:33, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Also concerned that Malleus's name is coming up yet again, but I don't think a clarification request is the proper platform to do anything other than address the specific issue being raised. It sounds as though that could be achieved simply by banning Malleus from RFA entirely. I reject the notion that copying Malleus's - or any topic-banned editor's - posts to a page they are banned from participating in directly is appropriate, however. Firstly, it creates a loophole in the topic ban. All User:TopicBanned has to do is find User:WillingAccomplice who will transfer posts from any page over to the topic-banned page, and the restriction is rendered superfluous. Secondly, if the discussion belongs on a page where User:TopicBanned is prohibited from editing, that probably means that User:TopicBanned has no business contributing in the first place. If the discussion gets moved because it was started in the wrong place, the same still applies. Thirdly, it prevents User:TopicBanned from disengaging from the area they were previously problematic in, which I thought was the whole point of these restrictions in the first place. If copying a post in this manner were to occur, then no, User:TopicBanned cannot be faulted (unless they directly requested the copying, which is a different matter), but whoever copied the post should be subject to blocking for what amounts to aiding and abetting. The only legitimate exception I can think of is the practice of copying an appeal of some sanction (and replies to comments to the same) to the appropriate noticeboard for community comment and review. Hersfold non-admin(t/a/c) 18:23, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- @RegentsPark: I can think of no circumstance on Wikipedia where calling someone a "dishonest twat" would be an appropriate comment and not deserving of a block. "Dishonest twit" isn't much better, but Malleus said the former. Hersfold non-admin(t/a/c) 18:31, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- @RegentsPark: Sorry, but I can't see that comment as anything but an indirect way of saying "Well, I don't like you either," which isn't much of a personal attack, certainly not deserving of Malleus's retort. But YMMV, I suppose; thanks for taking the time to calmly explain your position. Hersfold non-admin(t/a/c) 15:08, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- @Malleus: Insulting other editors is inherently disruptive, and I have no other way to describe your "dishonest twat" comment. The other diffs cited are rather similar. If you believe that insulting people is not disruptive, then I do not believe that you have a place on a collaborative project. Hersfold non-admin(t/a/c) 19:38, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- @RegentsPark: I can think of no circumstance on Wikipedia where calling someone a "dishonest twat" would be an appropriate comment and not deserving of a block. "Dishonest twit" isn't much better, but Malleus said the former. Hersfold non-admin(t/a/c) 18:31, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- I recognize there's an issue that good faith editors could move comments to a Request for Adminship talk page, and by doing so, infringe the topic ban. Similar to SirFozzie, I think we should consider modifying the remedy to prevent this issue, while still allowing Malleus to take part in the discussion. PhilKnight (talk) 22:15, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- Isarra, each of those comments to Malleus you linked to were pertinent to the RfA candidate. However the hopscotching between wiki and talk page is a problem. Not sure what to do about that. Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:34, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
Motion on Malleus Fatuorum
- For the purpose of this motion, there are 12 active arbitrators (not counting 2 who are inactive and 1 who is recused), so 7 votes are a majority.
Malleus Fatuorum (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has engaged in a number of personal attacks. In Civility enforcement earlier this year, Malleus Fatuorum was sanctioned for incivility and cautioned against repeat occurrences. In light of this continuing pattern of misconduct, he is banned from Wikipedia for a period of six months. Additionally, Malleus Fatuorum's indefinite topic ban from pages beginning with "Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship" is extended to include pages beginning with "Wikipedia:Requests for adminship" and related discussions elsewhere, broadly construed.
- This section is for voting by arbitrators. Comments from other interested editors are welcome and should be posted in the statements section above.
- Support
-
- As I stated above, we have gone to extraordinary lengths to try to work around MF's habitually incivil behavior. However, his behavior (both in the recent request, as well as here) has shown that MF has decided that he does not need to comply with Wikipedia's norms and policies when it comes to working with other editors. Thus, this motion. We've tried to manage the situation. We've tried to work around the situation. It's become clear that these efforts have not effectively resolved the situation, and that's why we're here. In this case, I preferred a time limited ban to an indefinite with appeals every six months because this way, MF can come back and if his behavior with other editors (even those he vehemently disagrees with) improves there's no further actions that need to be taken. I'm sure that MF would consider any ban that required them to ask the Committee to edit would be indefinite as in permanent, which is not what I want. SirFozzie (talk) 15:05, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- Before things get out of hand, I disagree vehemently with JClemens's "Never was a Wikipedian". I will state flat out that Malleus has done a LOT for Wikipedia. My thoughts on his behavior (and what might be required to curtail this behavior) do not in any way denigrate what he's done on the content side. I think the best reaction possible is that MF listens to Brad, myself and the other people who have urged him to correct the behavioral issues, and continue to contribute to Wikipedia. I will go so far as to say here what I said on his page. If he promises to try, I would fight any efforts to put him under "Zero tolerance" or any such remedies. I know it can be very hard to maintain one's temper when angered, and I am fully willing to forgive occasional lapses as long as it's not a continuing pattern. But that's contingent on him meeting us halfway.
- Unfortunately, Malleus has decided that he would rather be banned then meet us halfway, and thus, I have to reluctantly un-strike my vote. We gave Malleus every chance here, all he would have to do is soften his edges a bit. That apparently is not possible, and thus, we have to move on. SirFozzie (talk) 23:04, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- Before things get out of hand, I disagree vehemently with JClemens's "Never was a Wikipedian". I will state flat out that Malleus has done a LOT for Wikipedia. My thoughts on his behavior (and what might be required to curtail this behavior) do not in any way denigrate what he's done on the content side. I think the best reaction possible is that MF listens to Brad, myself and the other people who have urged him to correct the behavioral issues, and continue to contribute to Wikipedia. I will go so far as to say here what I said on his page. If he promises to try, I would fight any efforts to put him under "Zero tolerance" or any such remedies. I know it can be very hard to maintain one's temper when angered, and I am fully willing to forgive occasional lapses as long as it's not a continuing pattern. But that's contingent on him meeting us halfway.
- I was afraid that matters would escalate to this point (a case request followed by another issue within a couple weeks) when we were deciding the Civility Enforcement case. I proposed a ban against Malleus at that time, but was the only one to support it, as the rest of the community felt that the issue was more localized and the community could handle any problems elsewhere. It seems clear now that they can't, however, and so no other option save a full, indefinite, site ban remains to us. To Malleus, I strongly advise you to reconsider how you interact with others on your return to the project should this motion pass, and immediately should it not. It is the nature of a collaborative project that you're not going to get on with everyone, but responding with such vitriol will only serve to further inflame issues. To those who oppose this motion, I strongly advise to you that you work with the rest of the community to form some means of properly enforcing the Fourth Pillar and establish some expected standards of decorum for this project, so that matters like this can be resolved with much less drama and more equitably in the future. To that last bit, yes, I would not be surprised if in the noise we did miss some nasty attacks directed towards Malleus which prompted some of his responses. Does that justify Malleus's actions? No, two wrongs don't make a right, particularly when you're under sanction for those same wrongs already. Do Malleus's responses justify the attacks? Same thing applies, except that I'd imagine the vast majority of those making the alleged attacks aren't under any form of sanction - thus making action on the Committee's part somewhat premature absent a full case (which we already did earlier this year). So if you don't like it, do something about it yourselves. Hersfold non-admin(t/a/c) 15:23, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- I would have preferred a case in order for us to look at alternative solutions as I dislike having to remove a hard working and useful contributor, but as there is no stomach for a case, and as it is clear that MF is continuing to behave in an unpleasant and disruptive manner despite ArbCom sanctions, then I will support this. If someone wants to write up some kind of workable topic ban that forbids MF from ALL talkpages (other than GAN related and his own userpage) as well as adminship pages, I would prefer that. Perhaps a topic ban from all non-main space pages, except for FAC and GAN related and his own talkpage? SilkTork ✔Tea time 15:43, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- (General, not about Malleus) Letting people edit an article, but not that article's talk page is a recipe for disaster. That would let people get into editing disputes, but prevent them from resolving them. (The reverse, you can edit talk pages but not articles can work, but not that.) Courcelles 16:06, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- This is why I would have preferred a case, so we could discuss and fine tune solutions, and research aspects of MF's behaviour; see if claims that he is "baited" are true; examine the behaviour of others toward MF. Does anyone know off-hand if he engages in disruptive behaviour on article talkpages? I know he can be abrupt to the point of hostility at times, but does this occur (at all? - much?) on article talkpages? If not, then perhaps allow participation on article talkpages? When the sanction to topic ban MF from RfA talkpages was proposed I was not in favour as when I researched into his conduct there it was robust, but not excessively so - and his conduct did not seem to be inordinately inappropriate to the level and flavour of the discussions taking place. What is clear, though, is that disruption is in attendance with MF when he has the space to give his personal opinions - particularly of other users. I have been disappointed that a user who has such wide respect (and there is a lot of support on this page), should - even when sanctioned by ArbCom for incivility - continue to be needlessly hostile to other users. None of us are here to be insulted - each person adds their own contribution in their own way, and when a user makes a mistake there is an appropriate way to advise them of that so that they remain motivated, on task, and learn from the experience. Making a mistake is never a problem - it is how we and others react to the mistake that matters. I recently became aware of this discussion in which an experienced and respected GA reviewer felt so intimated by MF's comments that he was talking about giving up reviewing completely. It would be worth examining this incident to see what had led to that decision. There are other such moments regarding MF. Comments above where people are responding as though this motion is about one incident are perhaps either not aware of MF's profile or are wishing to only focus on that incident to make this motion appear unreasonable. I have a lot of respect for MF, and have never had any problems with him. I have recommended him a number of times to other users for conducting GA reviews or doing copy-editing, particularly where some thought, care and intelligence were needed. I would much rather we find a solution which allowed MF to contribute, but which encouraged him to avoid areas which get him into trouble. Failing that, a six month ban is preferable than to allow matters to go on after he has been brought to ArbCom for the third time this year. We would be sending out a very bad message if we let this go without some kind of response. SilkTork ✔Tea time 16:19, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- I've been thinking about this issue for a while, and I agree with this motion. Making decisions by motion is most distasteful, unless we are merely making minor improvements or changes to an existing sanction. However, while this is a heated issue, it is also very simple (and therefore compatible with decision-making by motion). Due process aside, the only legitimate response to the issue is also very simple: as an influence on Wikipedia, Malleus is a net negative. I don't believe I've ever came across a contributor who is so disruptive and who has also lasted so long without the community or ArbCom banning them; admittedly, there have also been few other cases where a contributor is, variously, so disruptive and beneficial. More relevantly, I don't believe we can continue to accept this kind of behaviour from Malleus. It's time for him to go. If this ban passes, I hope that he will learn to conduct himself appropriately before returning. AGK [•] 19:17, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- LC, you make the incorrect assumption that MF's conduct does not directly damage the willingness of editors to continue contributing. As you know, an axiom of Wikipedia policy is that helpful contributions do not excuse disruptive behaviour. Do you disagree, do you believe that Malleus has not behaved disruptively, or do you object to the motion on some other grounds? I am willing to read your rebuttal, if only you will explain it. AGK [•] 21:54, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- If Malleus promises to interact with other editors in a proper manner, I would be minded to pursue some remedy other than a site-ban. For Malleus' benefit, this is the sort of thing that has broken my patience (and, I presume, that of my colleagues who support this motion). Whether or not an editor's challenge of your changes or comments is correct, you owe it to less incisive or experienced editors to phrase your responses in such a way that the interaction is not made disgustingly unpleasant. You know how to speak to other editors; we only want you to make a credible effort to do so. AGK [•] 21:31, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
In essence, I mostly, but not entirely, agree with my colleagues above. I consider this motion to be acceptable, if a little harsh. If another motion is proposed for a lesser amount, such as 3 months, I'll support the other motion as my first choice, and make this my second. PhilKnight (talk) 22:20, 19 October 2012 (UTC)- Following discussion on the mailing list, and on my talk page, I'm indenting my vote in the hope we can agree on a less harsh remedy. PhilKnight (talk) 18:28, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- LC, you make the incorrect assumption that MF's conduct does not directly damage the willingness of editors to continue contributing. As you know, an axiom of Wikipedia policy is that helpful contributions do not excuse disruptive behaviour. Do you disagree, do you believe that Malleus has not behaved disruptively, or do you object to the motion on some other grounds? I am willing to read your rebuttal, if only you will explain it. AGK [•] 21:54, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- It is clear that Malleus has never been interested in upholding the fourth pillar, even if you presume that he has a differing interpretation of what constitutes civility. He has had plenty of chances to do so, and has intentionally avoided behaving in a collegial manner despite those chances. It's time to face the fact that Malleus
is not now, nor has he ever been,at some point in the past abandoned whatever commitment he had to the fourth pillar, and ceased to be a member of the Wikipedia community. The pillars define the community and the project, and are not subject to wholesale redefinition (though refinement goes on constantly) by the community; they are our social contract with the WMF, our readership, and each other. Those who say "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, conduct shouldn't matter if someone is contributing content" are guilty of promoting the first pillar over the fourth. As such, it is appropriate to recognize that it is in embracing all the pillars that an editor is truly a community member. Vandals, POV-pushers, self-promoters, and copyright violators are all eventually shown the door if they will not reform their behaviors and work with ALL the pillars ALL the time. Civility is no different, and while we can argue about whether Malleus was provoked, or justifiably upset at real wrongs, or started from a different set of cultural expectations, he's failed to self-reform even though he's clearly capable. Thus, Malleus has himself chosen to join those other groups in his self-selected banning; all we do here is acknowledge that Malleus hasnever beensince ceased to be a Wikipedian, no matter how many otherwise constructive edits he has made. Jclemens (talk) 01:26, 20 October 2012 (UTC)- Jclemens, I'm not voting at this point, because I would like to see what comes from the discussion initiated by Newyorkbrad first. However, I take serious exception to your statement that "Malleus has never been a Wikipedian", and that we are acknowledging such a statement. You are making that statement personally in your individual role; the Committee as a whole is not. Risker (talk) 03:04, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- Amended the statement based on comments on my talk page. Risker, I'd extend my invite to Newyorkbrad to you as well... If you think my statement is incorrect, feel free to articulating a basis for differentiating among the pillars. Jclemens (talk) 03:36, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- Jclemens, I have already asked you to post the views you have expressed to the Committee on your talk page or in the current RFC. Feel free to edit them, however, I believe that given you are now acting as if the community agrees with your undisclosed position on civility, that the community has the right to know what those views are. Risker (talk) 04:24, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- I've articulated my views--that the civility pillar is as non-negotiable as copyright--in the above vote. Since the pillars define the community, it is not up to the community to agree with the pillars or not, any more than it is up to the community to agree with copyright issues. The assertion that I have some "undisclosed" position with respect to civility is simply not true--I've articulated on-wiki the same reasoning I articulated on the list. Jclemens (talk) 05:06, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- Well, we will disagree then on whether or not you have really disclosed your position. The community gets to interpret the pillars, and they're edited on a regular basis as interpretation changes over time. None of the pillars say "you're not part of the community unless you unfailingly follow all of these rules at all times"; keep in mind that the fifth pillar is also part of the foundation. Risker (talk) 05:16, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- I'm sure I know what you're referencing, but you're mischaracterizing it: my position is entirely public; the thought experiment on its implications is not, just like the rest of ArbCom internal deliberations. The fact that you'd call for disclosing such is curious and problematic, especially given some of your own comments in the discussion. On the specific question of rules vs. principles, however, Malleus still loses. One pillar can't usurp another, and while good editors can differ over the particulars of what is uncivil, Malleus' conduct over time is sufficiently consistent that WP:PACT applies, and the only substantial disagreement seems to be whether his admitted incivility is excused by his admittedly top-notch content work. Jclemens (talk) 06:22, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- Well, we will disagree then on whether or not you have really disclosed your position. The community gets to interpret the pillars, and they're edited on a regular basis as interpretation changes over time. None of the pillars say "you're not part of the community unless you unfailingly follow all of these rules at all times"; keep in mind that the fifth pillar is also part of the foundation. Risker (talk) 05:16, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- I've articulated my views--that the civility pillar is as non-negotiable as copyright--in the above vote. Since the pillars define the community, it is not up to the community to agree with the pillars or not, any more than it is up to the community to agree with copyright issues. The assertion that I have some "undisclosed" position with respect to civility is simply not true--I've articulated on-wiki the same reasoning I articulated on the list. Jclemens (talk) 05:06, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- Jclemens, I have already asked you to post the views you have expressed to the Committee on your talk page or in the current RFC. Feel free to edit them, however, I believe that given you are now acting as if the community agrees with your undisclosed position on civility, that the community has the right to know what those views are. Risker (talk) 04:24, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- Amended the statement based on comments on my talk page. Risker, I'd extend my invite to Newyorkbrad to you as well... If you think my statement is incorrect, feel free to articulating a basis for differentiating among the pillars. Jclemens (talk) 03:36, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- Jclemens, I'm not voting at this point, because I would like to see what comes from the discussion initiated by Newyorkbrad first. However, I take serious exception to your statement that "Malleus has never been a Wikipedian", and that we are acknowledging such a statement. You are making that statement personally in your individual role; the Committee as a whole is not. Risker (talk) 03:04, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- Fozzie articulates my point of view fairly well. There's the canard thrown around that "competence is required", and that extends handily to conduct. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 04:13, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- As I stated above, we have gone to extraordinary lengths to try to work around MF's habitually incivil behavior. However, his behavior (both in the recent request, as well as here) has shown that MF has decided that he does not need to comply with Wikipedia's norms and policies when it comes to working with other editors. Thus, this motion. We've tried to manage the situation. We've tried to work around the situation. It's become clear that these efforts have not effectively resolved the situation, and that's why we're here. In this case, I preferred a time limited ban to an indefinite with appeals every six months because this way, MF can come back and if his behavior with other editors (even those he vehemently disagrees with) improves there's no further actions that need to be taken. I'm sure that MF would consider any ban that required them to ask the Committee to edit would be indefinite as in permanent, which is not what I want. SirFozzie (talk) 15:05, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose
-
- The comments were pertinent and the real problem lies with RfA itself. The amendment was needless and some discussion of mechanics was required. Later exchanges can be written off after an all-round souring of the atmosphere. The net negative seems to occur after a new discussion (such as this) is opened in a venue such as here. Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:39, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- God no. Perhaps I'm the only Arb who has done a job where you regularly got cussed at, but we need to knock on the head the idea that the standard is a workplace, with the editors as employees who can be disciplined for inappropriate language. No-one gets paid to work here, and some people regularly rail at what they see as 'the management'. This is what started all this lot off. I hesitate to say the appropriate model is a pub (Malleus' language would certainly get him thrown out of several taprooms of my acquaintance if addressed at mine host) but swimming pools (in the Uk at least) all have signs up saying 'no petting, no bombing, no running, no ducking'. There was no need for anyone to plaster a similar notice on this RFA, or to keep going when someone said "are you looking at me sunbeam." As to sanctions, I would have said the existing one worked - other that explaining to Malleus that he can't be blocked because someone else transferred his comments to the talkpage. I dont know if anyone was actually sanctioning him for trying to 'fix' that, but if so they need to have a bit more understanding of the underlying issue.Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:23, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but why would anyone want to participate in a project - or anything - that's as much work as Wikipedia is, where they don't get paid, and it's apparently permissible for people to swear at you if they disagree with something you said? I'm not understanding the Britishisms, but nobody said that this has to be a workplace, and it's been long established - or so I thought - that Wikipedia was based on a collaborative environment. The sort of profanity and incivility Malleus uses whenever someone gets on his bad side (which frankly doesn't seem too difficult) is by definition corrosive to that environment and thus completely incompatible with it. This is the third time this year Malleus's conduct has been raised to this Committee - the first time we let him off with what amounted to a slap on the wrist, the second time we ignored him completely. If we continue to do nothing, we establish that this sort of conduct is perfectly acceptable. That is not the impression I got when I joined Wikipedia, nor is it the impression I'd expect one to get from reading about the pillars or our civility "policy." And if that is what we establish, that is not a project I am willing to contribute to. Hersfold (t/a/c) 23:50, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- Because it's quite a common situation. Because if you are relying on volunteers you sometimes have to put up with the idiosyncracies of said volunteers. Because in Malleus's case, he doesn't go off at everybody - he doesn't go off at genuine content creators, at well meaning newbies, at people who ask for his help. He doesn't engage in random abuse, he doesn't target people for being black/gay/female/young/welsh or whatever. What he reacts badly to is being 'handled' by 'the management' (as he perceives it) - this is much, much less of a problem for the encyclopaedia than civil POV pushers skewing articles by eliminating their more forthright correctors, spammers, advertisers, political censors, sly vandals, Randy in Boise and anything that affects the continued creation and maintenance of accurate content. Do I wish MF would avoid taproom language - yes. Do I think editors are leaving the project in droves because he uses it - no. If the cuss words are really such a problem, then go to the community with a swear box solution - 24hr block for every word on the list - and see if there's any support for it. Elen of the Roads (talk) 10:50, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- And I might add that on most volunteer projects, you don't get to tell someone who has worked on it for years that they've never been a real part of it because they use foul language. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:05, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- Can I commend to all the statements made by User:Littleolive oil above. I do wish certain parties (it's by no means just Malleus) didn't use quite so much bar-room language, because some people are genuinely upset by it. But I still believe that bullying is more of a problem than cussing, and something that we deal with very poorly, because it's much harder to identify and prove someone is bullying than it is just to point to the swears. Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:07, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- And I might add that on most volunteer projects, you don't get to tell someone who has worked on it for years that they've never been a real part of it because they use foul language. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:05, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- Because it's quite a common situation. Because if you are relying on volunteers you sometimes have to put up with the idiosyncracies of said volunteers. Because in Malleus's case, he doesn't go off at everybody - he doesn't go off at genuine content creators, at well meaning newbies, at people who ask for his help. He doesn't engage in random abuse, he doesn't target people for being black/gay/female/young/welsh or whatever. What he reacts badly to is being 'handled' by 'the management' (as he perceives it) - this is much, much less of a problem for the encyclopaedia than civil POV pushers skewing articles by eliminating their more forthright correctors, spammers, advertisers, political censors, sly vandals, Randy in Boise and anything that affects the continued creation and maintenance of accurate content. Do I wish MF would avoid taproom language - yes. Do I think editors are leaving the project in droves because he uses it - no. If the cuss words are really such a problem, then go to the community with a swear box solution - 24hr block for every word on the list - and see if there's any support for it. Elen of the Roads (talk) 10:50, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but why would anyone want to participate in a project - or anything - that's as much work as Wikipedia is, where they don't get paid, and it's apparently permissible for people to swear at you if they disagree with something you said? I'm not understanding the Britishisms, but nobody said that this has to be a workplace, and it's been long established - or so I thought - that Wikipedia was based on a collaborative environment. The sort of profanity and incivility Malleus uses whenever someone gets on his bad side (which frankly doesn't seem too difficult) is by definition corrosive to that environment and thus completely incompatible with it. This is the third time this year Malleus's conduct has been raised to this Committee - the first time we let him off with what amounted to a slap on the wrist, the second time we ignored him completely. If we continue to do nothing, we establish that this sort of conduct is perfectly acceptable. That is not the impression I got when I joined Wikipedia, nor is it the impression I'd expect one to get from reading about the pillars or our civility "policy." And if that is what we establish, that is not a project I am willing to contribute to. Hersfold (t/a/c) 23:50, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- While concerns have been raised regarding Malleus' ongoing participation at RFA, I have seen no evidence that these concerns extend to his participation elsewhere in the project. In light of that, a full ban seems unnecessary; if Malleus' participation at RFA is disruptive to the point where the existing remedy is insufficient—and I'm not yet convinced that this is indeed the case—then it should be sufficient to simply bar him from participating at RFA at all. Certainly, it would be unfortunate to lose his valuable contributions in other areas because of a dispute in what is very much a non-essential area of the project.
More generally, I'm not in favor of fixed-duration bans as a remedy in cases of this sort. The subject of the ban is unlikely to undergo a dramatic change of heart merely due to the passage of X months—particularly as the ban expires automatically, without any requirement that the subject demonstrate a change in behavior either prior to or upon his return. If someone's conduct is so bad as to warrant a long-term ban, then the ban should be indefinite, and should require that the subject demonstrate that the problem which led to it has been resolved prior to returning; otherwise, all we're doing is giving someone a few months to stew over how the evil Arbitration Committee is oppressing them.
And, finally, to address the point raised by Jclemens: Malleus is a Wikipedian; he has always been a Wikipedian; and he will continue to be a Wikipedian even if we ban him. We cannot strip away someone's identity by motion, nor declare them an unperson because they no longer follow our party line. Kirill [talk] 16:57, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose. This does not in any way address the issue that was brought to us. The answer to the original question is "Yes, Worm That Turned did it right". It is a pitiful shame that we on the Committee do not regularly prune out irrelevant commentary from requests like this; it leads to bad outcomes on a regular basis. I agree wholeheartedly with Kirill's last paragraph. Risker (talk) 02:38, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- First, no matter which way this goes, Kirill's last paragraph is dead on. Labels are... I sort of think a waste of time, at least in trying to deny someone else a label they desire to claim when there is no harm in just letting it rest. Whether Malleus wants to wear this label of "Wikipedian" is for him to decide, not for us to take away, even if we vote to ban him. We can disagree on whether he should continue to enjoy editing privileges without ever going down that road again. My mind on all of this is very, very conflicted. If Malleus continued with his conduct at the level it was at, I feel like this was an inevitable happening. But this, in this manner, at this time... I can't support it. Lets do something about the problem presented in the request and make the last clause of this motion a separate vote. See if that solves things. I think I realized on my last drive today (I'm moving house at the moment) that expecting Malleus to say he would change was not likely to happen. What I think will happen if this motion fails is that he will silently work on his conduct and use of language. If he does, we all win here. If he doesn't, then there will be people who can point out my naivety. Whatever. I'll propose something I think might work and solve the question asked of us in a few moments. Courcelles 04:20, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- Abstain
Recuse
- I'm recused per my statement above. I'm also very sad. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:37, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- Discussion
- Torchiest, we've tried things short of a full site ban to resolve this. Malleus's behavior has been repeatedly before the Committee, and he was sanctioned and warned to not repeat them in the Civility Enforcement case. It is just not on to refer to people you disagree with as "dishonest fuckers", "dishonest twats" etcetera. Malleus has been given every opportunity to change the behavior, and has not. This is the logicial conclusion of these steps. SirFozzie (talk) 15:43, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- Noting the motion, but I really would like to see where this conversation goes before voting. Malleus clearly values this project very highly (anyone who puts in the time he has here has to), so the question is not, and can not be, is he a Wikipedian; of course he is. What we need to decide is whether he is willing to work to conform his behaviour to the standards of the project. The Civility Enforcement case should have been a clarion call to do this, but this motion right here is the last one. You can, and so often do, work in an excellent manner without insults. This isn't a witch-hunt, of the six Arbs in support at this time, three of them voted against banning Malleus earlier this year when they had the chance, none of us want to do it. That said, we need a thoughtful commitment to really work on these issues -- not perfection, just better -- and we can move on. (Perhaps with just the second part of this motion, extending the RFA topic ban actually going through) As this sits at 6-2, and 7 supports passes it, perhaps anyone who hasn't voted yet should just wait, sleep on this, and see where the talk page comments go. If we have to do this, pass this motion, we can do it over, or even after, the weekend... (not that anyone wastes time reading the "Courcelles is about to go to bed" ramblings anyway ;) ) Courcelles 04:19, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- Also noting the motion and awaiting the outcome of the discussion on Malleus Fatuorum's talk page before voting. Risker (talk) 05:09, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
@Reaper Eternal - I wish you'd done that list since February. Anyone have a stopwatch or calendar to determine what actual percentage of Malleus' edits could be considered incivil (let's for the sake of the civility folks say this should include those provoked). I reckon it'd come in as miniscule - maybe under 3%? Shall we look at time editing constructively vs these trainwrecks. A lot of Article Building and Article Review water goes under the bridge between each one of these flareups. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:58, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
@Everybody - I formally dissociate myself from any such discussion of any editor as "not a wikipedian". I could explain...do I need to explain that one? Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:58, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
Motion on Malleus Fatuorum (2)
- For the purpose of this motion, there are 12 active arbitrators (not counting 2 who are inactive and 1 who is recused), so 7 votes are a majority.
Remedy 4 ("Malleus Fatuorum topic banned") of Civility Enforcement is vacated, and replaced with the following:
Malleus is topic banned from making edits concerning the RFA process anywhere on the English Wikipedia. As an exception, he may ask questions of the candidates and express his own view on a candidate in a specific RFA (in the support, oppose, or neutral sections), but may not engage in any threaded discussions relating to RFA. An uninvolved admin may remove any comments in violation of this remedy, and may enforce it with blocks if necessary.
- Support
-
- Lets TRY and find something that works without tossing Malleus to the curb. Maybe this will, maybe it won't, but lets slow down and THINK about this. Other ideas, lets talk about them; and feel free to copy-edit the heck out of this idea. Courcelles 04:24, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- I can live with this, and I think Malleus could probably do so as well. Risker (talk) 04:29, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- First preference. PhilKnight (talk) 12:58, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- At least it clarifies the situation at RFA - threaded comments should be removed altogether rather than removed to the talkage - which was what got us here. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:00, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- This addresses the original concern, at least. Hersfold (t/a/c) 21:25, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think this is the best we can do, but I accept that the Committee have no stomach for a full case, and this is something that we can try. If it doesn't work then the new Committee can have another go next year. (And if someone else offers something better in the next few days I'll go for that instead). SilkTork ✔Tea time 23:30, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- Per Risker, although I shudder to see that "!vote" has now entered the Committee's official lexicon. Kirill [talk] 12:36, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
- Worth trying to address it in less drastic steps. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 22:09, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
- This will succeed only if Malleus voluntarily improves how he interacts with other editors. I'm willing to try this motion out, on the understanding that we are giving Malleus a "final final chance". AGK [•] 12:23, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose
-
- No. Malleus was offered a free ride. No sanctions, no anything, as long as he TRIED to change his behavior. I'm sorry, but we've gone the extra mile here and he has said that he would rather quit/retire/be banned then stop violating one of Wikipedia's core pillars. Even now, with the motion above passing, if Malleus would agree to work on his behavior, I'd be willing to strike my vote permanently, but without such assurances, I'm sorry, I cannot support anything short. SirFozzie (talk) 04:28, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- Just for the record, I've tried one more time on Malleus's page, asking that he ignore JClemens's statement, which again, for the record, I will say is flat out wrong. If Malleus is willing to bend even a bit, I'm willing to strike my support for the ban, so we can work something out. SirFozzie (talk) 05:05, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- No. Malleus was offered a free ride. No sanctions, no anything, as long as he TRIED to change his behavior. I'm sorry, but we've gone the extra mile here and he has said that he would rather quit/retire/be banned then stop violating one of Wikipedia's core pillars. Even now, with the motion above passing, if Malleus would agree to work on his behavior, I'd be willing to strike my vote permanently, but without such assurances, I'm sorry, I cannot support anything short. SirFozzie (talk) 04:28, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- Recuse
-
- If I'd known that this was going to turn into Civility enforcement 2 I might not have recused, since the focus of the concern that led me to recuse was more narrow. But this motion is at the heart of that concern, and so I stay recused here. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:18, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
- Discussion
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- I think we require time to look at MF's conduct in RfA to see exactly how bad it is; we need time to consider MF's behaviour in other areas of Wikipedia to see if the flares up occur just in RfA; we need time to look at when and why MF flares up, to see how much truth there is that MF only responds when he has been unjustly provoked; we need time to work out appropriate solutions. And if it is decided that MF is topic banned or site banned or has a language restriction imposed, then we need to have the rationale for our actions because without that rationale there may well be some disaffection. SilkTork ✔Tea time 16:01, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- While I understand the thinking behind banning MF from RfA, the recent case request did not emerge from RfA. We know that MF is occasionally hostile, and we know that on some of those occasions there is extended drama and conflict. We also know that MF is under sanction and has been admonished for incivility. We also know that despite this, he has continued the conduct that has caused concern for some parts of the community. As such a total siteban makes some kind of sense. I'm not sure a ban on just one part of the site when detailed research has not been carried out as to how much of his incivility relates to this part of the site in comparison to other parts, is satisfactory. I can see that this current incident has arisen from RfA, but that's only because the case earlier this year emerged from RfA, and a sanction applicable to RfA was drawn up. But if the case had resulted from the recent case request rather than the one earlier in the year, then would we have applied an ANI topic ban instead? I don't have the time at the moment to conduct the research, but my feeling is that the situation is a little more complex than just RfA.
- I am however considering accepting this motion as I don't want Wikipedia to lose a valued contributor if it can be avoided. I am concerned about the impact of incivility on parts of the community, as that is a serious issue - but we really don't know who is driven away (if any), and who are not joining (if any). There is strong support on this page for MF, that cannot be ignored. And at the same time, a curious low level of participation from those who are concerned about incivility. It may have something to do with some of the comments that some of my fellow Committee members have made, and people not wishing to be associated with those comments; but that is speculation. The Committee's role is to uphold community consensus, and the consensus on applying sanctions for incivility is blurred when it comes to valued contributors. However, the consensus in this incident appears fairly clear as regards this valued contributor - those who have spoken want him to remain productive. It is difficult to work on hidden consensus, and on making assumptions about what the silent majority want. And the emails I have got have not been clear. SilkTork ✔Tea time 23:17, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- Following Kirill's comment, and discussion on the talk page, I've rephrased the motion to remove the use of !vote. PhilKnight (talk) 13:18, 23 October 2012 (UTC)