Talk:Volodymyr Zelenskyy

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Tamzin (talk | contribs) at 21:56, 26 February 2022 (→‎Requested move 25 February 2022: SNOW close). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Requested move 7 January 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. The crux of the discussion is whether COMMONNAME applies in this case or SPNC does. Since the preferred transliteration was clarified, some outlets have gone with "Zelenskyy" (e.g. Sky News) and some outlets have stuck with "Zelensky" (e.g. BBC). This, to me, indicates that the matter of transliteration for those outlets is a matter of house style more than anything. Hence, I am not satisified that "Zelensky" is common enough to pass this muster.

WP:BLP dictates that we afford a certain level of sensitivity to living people. The matter of transliteration, especially as it applies to Ukranian topics (famously, see Kiev vs. Kyiv), is one of those where we we must consider said sensitivities. I am satisfied that the clarification is enough to pass the spirit — if not the letter — of the WP:SPNC. After all, COMMONNAME even allows for us to deviate from the most commonly used name if it would be inaccurate, and I daresay SPNC has that squarely in mind. Sceptre (talk) 19:33, 5 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Volodymyr Zelensky → Volodymyr Zelenskyy – This is the official spelling per the article's opening sentence. The article's title is outdated, this should not be controversial. —Legoless (talk) 10:38, 7 January 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 08:46, 16 January 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 15:47, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

2021–22 Russo-Ukrainian crisis

To include something to such section, one must have RS saying that an event X belonged to 2021–22 Russo-Ukrainian crisis. Also, that something should be significant. My very best wishes (talk) 20:08, 29 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking more of the edit [2]: (a) how is the story with Poroshenko related to views by Zelensky? (b) how is moving personnel from US embassy is related to BLP of Zeknsky? (c) we are not going to include every comment by Zelensky. My very best wishes (talk) 00:11, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
(a) Poroshenko denied the allegations, calling them "fabricated, politically motivated, and black PR directed against [Zelensky's] political opponents. There is a long-standing personal and political feud between former President Poroshenko and current President Zelensky, and it should be mentioned in the "Controversies" section. — diff, diff
(c) He has been saying it for weeks. — diff -- Tobby72 (talk) 11:08, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
(a) - There is no proof that Zelensky was personally involved here, although he certainly could; this does not seem sufficient for inclusion; (b) - yes, that does sounds exactly like official statments by the Soviet government just before the Nazi invasion in 1941, so might be notable in retrospective, but right now is covered by WP:NOTNEWS. My very best wishes (talk) 18:59, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Potential source

France24: Military tactics: Zelensky plays both sides in Ukrainian crisis, 18/02/22 Jr8825 • Talk 17:01, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Reference 9 is suspicious

It is one of the few articles I have found that say Zelensky is leaning towards authoritarianism. I can't find much information about the author but the three other articles by him on the same website all seem like they are propaganda by the Russian government. Rmacleod18 (talk) 18:00, 24 February 2022 (UTC)rmacleod18[reply]

@Rmacleod18: thanks for raising your concerns. The EUObserver is generally a high quality outlet, but I've also had my own reservations with the David Clark opinion piece (I, like you, was initially suspicious – as it was being misrepresented by several editors to add claims that Zelenskyy was responsible for "democratic backsliding", a phrase neither source uses). I searched around and found a strong FT article making the same criticisms of Zelenskyy, which I added to that sentence so that it's not reliant on Clark's article. I'm going to go ahead and remove the cite from that sentence as it's an opinion piece, so not an ideal source anyway. It remains in the Controversies section for now, where its allegations are covered in more detail; if other editors feel it's WP:UNDUE then I don't object to its removal. It does however appear to be a genuine criticism a number of Ukrainians and Ukraine experts have levelled against Zelenskyy over the last couple of years. I've also looked at the Clark's other articles for the EUObserver and they are critical of Putin, so I think it's unlikely he's a paid-up propagandist. The problem, as I mentioned above, is that several editors were going beyond what the sources say, so it's worth keeping a close eye on the page. The other question is whether this criticism is sufficiently important to include in our article lead section. I'm afraid I don't currently know the answer to that as I haven't dug around and read a wide enough range of sources yet. Jr8825 • Talk 18:28, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 25 February 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: SNOW keep. This may fall a bit shy of the normal threshold expected for the snowball clause, but, a mere three weeks after the last RM, a very strong consensus would be required to reverse, and I see the proverbial "snowball's chance in Hell" of that very strong consensus being reached. It bears emphasis that, while consensus can change, discussions so quickly relitigating a previous one are generally expected to justify why an early reconsideration is called for—for instance, procedural defect in the previous case or some change in the facts. This nomination has not made any real effort to argue that. Those who feel the previous consensus was wrong are welcome to start a new RM after a suitable period of time (probably 6-12 months). (closed by non-admin page mover) -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she/they) 21:56, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Volodymyr Zelenskyy → Volodymyr Zelensky – Per WP:COMMONNAME. English Language media seem to most widely be using "Volodymyr Zelensky" to refer to the President of Ukraine, including media based within Ukraine. This includes WaPo, BBC, Ukrinform, Kyiv Post, NY Times, CBS News, Axios, The Times (of London), CNN, ABC News, the other ABC News, The Globe and Mail, and many others. People are searching for the spelling of his name with one terminating with one "y" more frequently than the name with two terminating "y"s, while Google Ngrams confirms near-exclusive use of "Zelensky" prior to 2019. Overall, the transliteration of his family name without a second "y" seems to be more natural, more consistent with how coverage of him spells his name, and seems to be the dominant way to transliterate his name (even among Ukraine-based English-language media). — Mhawk10 (talk) 16:39, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support as nom. Note that Ukrainian state media dominantly uses the transliteration with a single terminating y, even well after 2019. Per WP:SPNC The determination of how much extra weight should be given to more recent sources is guided by the likelihood the new name is going to stick – while Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, it needs to be unavoidable that the new name will soon be the most common name. In this case, the name change plainly did not stick, not even among Ukraine government-affiliated English language media. As such, the current title seems to be inferior to the proposed title, since the proposed title is the unambiguous WP:COMMONNAME. — Mhawk10 (talk) 16:50, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • oppose per WP:SPNC he uses 'Zelenskyy' [3] —blindlynx 17:03, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:USEENGLISH. Rreagan007 (talk) 18:06, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: He uses 'Zelenskyy', this is the correct transliteration of his name. This was already discussed less than a month ago and the consensus was to move the article. I don't know why WP:SPNC is being cited in this proposal when it clearly states that for minor spelling variations, "when a consistent and unambiguous self-published version exists, it is usually followed". —Legoless (talk) 18:24, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    My point is that there isn't a consistent and unambiguous self-published version when his own state media uses a different transliteration. — Mhawk10 (talk) 18:43, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    How would state media, even if the President were to exert an iron grip on content (which isn't the case here, as evidenced by the fact that they don't even get his name right), be more self published than direct communication from said president? Acebulf (talk | contribs) 23:39, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:SPNC. His official twitter and FB pages for example use the "yy". This was just litigated above, should be re-litigated in the future, not now. Eccekevin (talk) 19:50, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose He literally has his name as "Zelenskyy" in his official pages. Wikipedia does not replace correct with wrong. SteelerFan1933 (talk) 20:08, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose We just had this discussion (see above RM which was closed 3 weeks ago.) 162 etc. (talk) 20:12, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The current spelling is fine, and is the official one used by the Ukrainian Govt. We already have had a discussion about this less than a month ago. If the proposer thinks that closure is incorrect, then they should request a review. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:21, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose/Snowball There is already a very recent discussion on the subject. Unsurprisingly, as evidenced by the strength of argumentation above, is appears that the consensus remains unchanged from a month ago. Acebulf (talk | contribs) 23:37, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Snowball. this discussion has ben litigated less than a month ago, it should be closed. The nom can ask to review the original discussion. Eccekevin (talk) 03:30, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per SteelerFan1933 -- HurricaneEdgar 23:40, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: No. Mr. Zelenskyy's name is literally that on his passport, the one used by the Ukrainian government, and the one we use, too. I should mention that the discussion from 3 weeks ago chose to move his name, and rightfully so. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 00:32, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per SPNC and the previous move discussion. I also suggest a WP:SNOW close. Jr8825 • Talk 00:40, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: There is one correct spelling (in Ukrainian) and many acceptable transliterations to English. And the single-"y" transliteration is the most common in RS, because there's really no such thing as a double-"y" in English, and transliterations are intended to be intuitively pronounceable. ― Tartan357 Talk 02:58, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: His name is widely reported with one "y" throughout international media. Miss HollyJ (talk) 03:15, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: I opposed the original move and I'll briefly restate my support for the simpler and more common transliteration. What's on his passport is less relevant than what media are commonly using. --Killuminator (talk) 03:50, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The media uses both (Zelenskyy is used by USA Today [1], ABC [2], FoxNews [3], Al Jazeera [4], LA Times [5], Chicago Tribune [6] and many more) so it makes sense to use the official/more accurate version with is "yy". As per the discussion above: Arguably, Volodymyr Zelenskyy better satisfies the WP:CRITERIA of precision and recognizability. He’s the only one we’ve ever heard of with that official spelling of the surname, and lets us redirect to the article from Zelenskyy. It also represents a WP:NPOV by respecting the living person’s own spelling, instead of imposing someone else’s preference (see WP:BLP, “high degree of sensitivity”). WP:COMMONNAME also lets us consider exceptions for accuracy and neutrality.Eccekevin (talk) 04:01, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per blindlynx, Legoless, Eccekevin, SteelerFan1933, 162 etc., Hemiauchenia, Acebulf, HurricaneEdgar, Javert2113 and Jr8825. "Zelenskyy" is how he and the Ukrainian government transliterate his surname into English and, inconsistencies in media coverage notwithstanding, that transliteration does appear in such form among various print and digital sources. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 03:55, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom and WP:SPNC; it’s clear that the name change (in English) has not stuck in the time since 2019. Arguments based on WP:OFFICIAL usage are not valid. — HTGS (talk) 04:24, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose: As stated in WP:SPNC, "when a consistent and unambiguous self-published version exists, it is usually followed". State media are not under his personal control and no more official than his passport. I'm not sure why we are re-litigating this when the consensus was reached less than a month ago; hopefully not racists trying to start an edit war.—Egawaryuki21 (talk) 09:51, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    What does this have to do with race? ― Tartan357 Talk 09:55, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    That the English-speaking media is more relevant in determining the spelling of his name than how he personally chooses, with insistence to the point of reopening discussion to break the last consensus within the month? To be clear I’m not yet making accusations here but stressing the importance to speak up with good-faith reasons (as many did here). —Egawaryuki21 (talk) 12:57, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @Egawaryuki21: This is the English Wikipedia. We write in English, and so we use common English transliterations, per WP:TRANSLITERATE. — HTGS (talk) 20:40, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: He uses Zelenskyy Jacksonisamazin (talk) 13:23, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: Zelenskyy is his real name, if we want to use Zelensky then just note that Zelensky is the shorten version — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peatta (talk • contribs) 13:43, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: It is spelled Zelenskyy in his passport and also spelled the same way by his administration; most sources also use this spelling. Something that is not broken does not need to be fixed. ➤ Zᴇᴇx.ʀɪᴄᴇ ✪ (ᴛᴀʟᴋ) 14:50, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: for many reasons. However, compelled to add my opposition by the 'people are searching for the singular 'y' spelling more' reasoning offered in support. I'm not WP:NOTE, but if I was most people would be spelling my name wrong on search engines too. Soothrhins (talk) 15:29, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The Guardian calls him "Zelenskiy", just to complicate matters. PatGallacher (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 21:15, 26 February 2022
  • Bold text Some people choose to change the spelling or pronunciation of their name and I believe we should follow that rather than media narratives. The media is supposed to follow the leader. Hell, there are people who are convinced that it’s Zelenskiy too. Trillfendi (talk) 21:37, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Zelensky bio and Trump

Zelensky bio. In the section on controversies, the author cites an exchange with then President Trump and Zelensky. Trump is reputed to have asked Zelensky to investigate Hunter Biden. Zelensky DENIES the exchange. Further, Zelensky’s denial is cited in an earlier passage. 172.223.160.182 (talk) 17:42, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Social issues - legalisation of weapons

(for context see social issues section)

So now that all Ukrainian citizens can be armed (on paper, see: [4]) should this be mentioned in his social views section? Obviously it is quite a different situation when he said that he opposes them in the RBC Ukraine source as it is full out war now, but it is quite a contrast as he said he was against it all before. So maybe it should be mentioned here. 24.44.73.34 (talk) 20:03, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The arming of civilians may be relevant for inclusion, although general mobilisation is already mentioned (which might cover this?) – regardless, it would best fit in the section on his response to the invasion, rather than the section on his social policies. Jr8825 • Talk 00:42, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Perhaps it can be said as he "announced general mobilisation and arming of civilians" in 2022 Russian Invasion section. I suppose it can be covered under general mobilisation but general mobil. doesn't always entail that so I think its worth bringing up. 24.44.73.34 (talk) 03:45, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

American Democrat group support giving war weapons to civilians.[7] Joaeko (talk) 15:51, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 February 2022

62.117.159.247 (talk) 21:51, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Entrepreneur should also be added to his bio.

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:31, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Bio states "Identifying as a populist…" & is not only untrue, but, also unsourced. Libertarianism, not populism, is stated as the Servant of The People party's ideological underpinnings. This is according to a dated, Ukrainian source from 2019. 112 is a Ukranian news agency: "Servant of the People party of Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelensky has declared libertarianism as the basis of its ideology.…'We have started to form our relations with him (Zelensky, - ed.) on this very ground – a liberal economic model, a liberal model of relations with relevant national characteristics,' Ruslan Stefanchuk, Zelensky’s adviser and representative in the Verkhovna Rada, said in an interview." — Preceding unsigned comment added by MrQbi (talk • contribs) 15:21, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Connections with Ihor Kolomoisky

Not sure if this is worth adding but some news sources have started to pick up previous accusations of Zelenskyy being a puppet for Ihor Kolomoisky

During the campaign, then President Poreshenko described Zelenskyy as a "candy wrapper", and said he was a "puppet" of a Ukrainian oligarch, Ihor Kolomoisky.

Zelenskyy's team denied this - although investigations show he had travelled frequently to meet with Kolomoisky, an exiled billionaire accused of stealing $5 billion from Ukrainian account holders at his bank.

This quote is from ITV news ~45 mins ago[8] from the time of writing. I've searched the archives for this talk page and the only reference I could find was Ihor Kolomoisky co-financing a movie or some productions. Is this worth writing upon? --DannyDouble (talk) 16:34, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Misspelling

There is a misspelling of Zelenskyy's name in the final paragraph of the section '2019 presidential campaign'. It reads "Polish President Andrzej Duda was one of the first European leaders to congratulate Zelensky".

Gallery of Jewish Heroes

Famous Rabbi,Mr. Rabbi Elchanan Poupko put President Zelensky in the gallery of greatest jewish fighters in history https://twitter.com/RabbiPoupko/status/1497065019791585284 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joaeko (talk • contribs) 15:50, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2022/02/25/russia-ukraine-kyiv-invasion-latest/6934351001/. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
  2. ^ News, A. B. C. "What to know about Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy". ABC News. Retrieved 26 February 2022. {{cite web}}: |last1= has generic name (help)
  3. ^ https://www.foxnews.com/politics/us-security-ukrainian-president-zelenskyy-munich-conference-durbin. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
  4. ^ "'We're defending Ukraine alone', says President Zelenskyy". www.aljazeera.com. Retrieved 26 February 2022.
  5. ^ "Who is Ukraine's president? And can he handle this crisis?". Los Angeles Times. 24 February 2022. Retrieved 26 February 2022.
  6. ^ Selle, Charles. "Column: The fate of Ukraine is of great interest to thousands in northwest Lake County". chicagotribune.com. Retrieved 26 February 2022.
  7. ^ https://bearingarms.com/tomknighton/2022/02/25/democrats-are-pro-gun-n55850
  8. ^ "Who is Volodymyr Zelenskyy, the Ukrainian President ready to fight for his capital?". ITV News. Retrieved 26 February 2022.
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