Talk:New York (state): Difference between revisions

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

There are three possible ways to close this discussion, depending on how the discussion closer interprets the consensus.

1. Closing this as “no consensus”. Some participants consider the state to be the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, some consider the city to be the primary topic, some do not think a primary topic exists.
2. Moving the state away from the base title, and moving the city to the base title. Stronger arguments support having a primary topic than not, and of the arguments in support of having a primary topic, support is stronger for the city than the state.
3. Moving the state away from the base title, and moving the disambiguation page to the base title. There is no consensus for having either the city or the state to be the primary topic, and some participants think a primary topic does not exist.

This is not an easy decision. I originally closed this as “no consensus” according to option 1, but now I am modifying my closure to implement option 3 instead. Among policy-based arguments, there is rough consensus that the state is not the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and should not be at the base title, thus option 1 (maintaining the status quo) is not optimal. On the other hand, I do not consider the consensus to move New York City to the base title to be strong enough. Therefore, I am closing this as move New York (the state) to New York (state (suggestions to use WP:PARENDIS instead of WP:NATURALDIS were not opposed), and move New York (disambiguation) to New York. This is without prejudice against a new RM discussion at Talk:New York City to move the city to the base title. (closed by a page mover) SSTflyer 05:08, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

New York → New York State – According to the AP Stylebook, New York City is listed as New York, and is also the legal name of the city. The state and city use New York for a name. The state does not have primary usage of the name. Most people, when saying "New York", refer to the city and not the state. If people were referring to the state, they should say "New York State" or "State of New York" or "Upstate New York", etc. I propose having the state named New York State and having the city named New York City, with New York as a disambiguation page. Also, New York State instead of New York (state) is WP:NATURAL. There is really no WP:PRIMARY topic of "New York" - you could be referring to the state or the city. That is why I am proposing this new requested move. Another option, instead of New York as a disambiguation page, is to redirect it to New York City, although I am opposed to it. ✉cookiemonster✉ ^𝚨755𝛀 18:52, 9 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Support – Simple logic. I've never understood how the state gained primary topic status. It clearly isn't the primary topic. Certainly, as a Briton, we know the city more than the state, for instance. RGloucester — ☎ 22:03, 9 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Support - Also never understood the state primary topic status. I am foreign, so for me, New York is the city. Searching New York and finding the State topic is puzzling. And annoying. I would prefer if New York redirects to New York City. --Robertiki (talk) 22:35, 9 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per many discussions before. Nominee has offered no proof about how "most people" use the term, merely assertions. The line "If people were referring to the state, they should say "New York State" or "State of New York" or "Upstate New York", etc. " is especially silly; someone could equally say "If people are referring to the city, they should say "New York City". Who is issuing these "shoulds?" Additionally, "New York" (state) and "Upstate New York" are not synonyms! Plenty of NY State activities in New York City, too. It'd be like claiming the City of London is not part of London. Anyway, no other US state has "State" randomly added to the end; the state is merely "New York", so if the article is moved, it should honor the format of Georgia (U.S. state) and go to New York (U.S. state). But there's no need for such a move. SnowFire (talk) 23:02, 9 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment SnowFire New York (state) is definitely open to discussion. I picked New York State because it is WP:NATURAL. And... please Explain to me how the state is the primary topic, and not the city and than we can chat ;) Cheers, ✉cookiemonster✉ ^𝚨755𝛀 00:06, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

How does London contribute to this argument? City of London is a city within a city (London). We are talking about city and state. New York mostly refers to the city, more than the state. There is no primary topic. ✉cookiemonster✉ ^𝚨755𝛀 00:11, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• The claim that if people mean the state, they'll say "Upstate New York". Which is nonsensical because "Downstate New York" is also part of New York (state)! And there's plenty of things within NYC that refer specifically to the *State*, e.g. state income taxes, state police, etc. Saying that New York City isn't in New York is equivalent to saying City of London isn't in London, that is, really wrong. New York (City) is in fact part of New York (state), so "Upstate New York" is not equivalent.
• I'm a huge fan of natural disambiguation over parenthetical, but think it's a bad idea for the likes of U.S. states, where the formal name is important (e.g. Hawaii, not Hawaiʻi). As for primary topic, no, I agree, there isn't a clear primary topic. "New York" can refer to either the city or the state. However, there are lots of other considerations that make the current setup acceptable, and for further move requests just to be churn. It avoids a disambiguation page at a highly-trafficed page, and a hatnote enables the other option as well as the disambig page to be easily accessed. It means that, SomeTownName, New York, a very common address format, points where you'd expect. It makes a lot of formal references by state to not need to be converted to anything crazy, e.g. things like election results which will only say "New York" not "New York state". THere's more reasons in the archives, too. How does this move placing a disambiguation page here help? Inertia is a real criterion; some location has to win, and it's easier for all involved if it's only changed with a really good reason. Think of it this way: we flip a coin in 2002, and just accept that whether it lands on city or state, we just run with it afterward. They both can't win, and the article isn't improved by moving it back & forth, or to a disambig. SnowFire (talk) 00:40, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment I believe you are confusing what I am saying. I never said that New York City was never apart of the state. New York City is a city in the State of New York. I am very open to the discussion. New York (currently the state) should be named New York State or New York (state) and New York City should remain the same. New York should than become a disambiguation page, or it should redirect to New York City with a hatnote to New York State. Listen, I am here to make Wikipedia easier and more reliable to use. They both can't win? Oh, so that's how it will be ;) Something needs to be done. Many people internationally think of "New York" as simply referring to the city. The state should not have priority over the city. The city is more known internationally than the state. That is why I am bringing this up ;) ✉cookiemonster✉ ^𝚨755𝛀 02:13, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - The name of the state is "New York." I agree with SnowFire above about state article naming conventions. However, the status quo is the simplest, as both city and state have titles that are also names in common usage. Fitnr 02:56, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The name of the city is also "New York", and there is no way that anyone can claim that the state has primary topic status. The point is that when one types New York, one shouldn't be sent to the state's page. There should be a dab page, or maybe someone can present a case for primary topic status for the city. I don't know. The present situation, however, is not supported by any guidelines or policies. RGloucester — ☎ 03:10, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Fitnr, should we change Washington (state) to Washington ? --Robertiki (talk) 14:31, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Sure, I think you could make a good argument for that. To make it a better analogy: Ignore the person, and imagine the choice was only between using Washington for the state or the city. The obvious solution would be to give the plain name to the state and use Washington, D.C. for the city. Under the status quo, both articles have simple names. There are going to be hatnotes on both articles either way, so why not avoid parentheses, which are ugly and possibly confusing to people unfamiliar with naming conventions? Fitnr 02:32, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose on so many levels, I'm surprised this is up for discussion again. ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 03:29, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

ɱ — I am just as surprised as you ;) ✉cookiemonster✉ ^𝚨755𝛀 14:43, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ok among the arguments I agree with: Parenthetical disambiguators are ugly and to be avoided when possible, the hatnote at the top of this article makes any confusion clear and quickly solved, and the suggestions on the search bar should allow most people to find the right page. And this FAQ. ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 16:11, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If a hatnote is proven to work, than I will close this argument as me being ignorant. Well... actually, I change my mine. Let's just let the requested move take its 7 day course ;) ✉cookiemonster✉ ^𝚨755𝛀 19:45, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose because I think the state is the primary topic for "New York". I especially oppose "New York State". Natural disambiguation has a place, but not like that. Nohomersryan (talk) 13:07, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Nohomersryan We could use New York (state) or New York (U.S. state), but it sounds like you are a no goer, anyway, shape or form ;) that's fine with me pal. ✉cookiemonster✉ ^𝚨755𝛀 14:43, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. Per the FAQ, Past proposals exist, and prior to making new proposals, one should review those that have already taken place, such as the ones that occurred in Oct–Nov 2004, Feb 2005, Feb–Sep 2005, Mar–Aug 2008, and Oct–Nov 2010.. I see no evidence the nominator actually did. Also, I'm surprised by the bluntness of commenters who believe the lack of a primary topic is plainly obvious.MelanieLamont (talk) 13:35, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

MelanieLamont Aye, I guess I did not read the instructions very well ;) ... oops! Bluntness: abrupt in address or manner... and am I really that bluntness, sweetie pie? ✉cookiemonster✉ ^𝚨755𝛀 14:43, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. The current setup is fine, and this RM seems like a solution looking for a problem. Users searching for the city who end up here can use the hatnote, the link to NYC in the lead paragraph, or the one in the infobox. Calidum ¤ 21:36, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Per cookiemonster, I'm afraid NYC is the primary topic for NY by a mile, especially outside of the US. newyork.com seems to be 100% about NYC. Timmyshin (talk) 05:35, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support what wording exactly? And you should read the old RMs, which make notes that people always ask for clarification when you say you're from New York. As a New Yorker formerly living in California, saying I was from New York always required further explanation. Btw, the website newyork.com isn't owned by any government; some company holds the domain and can therefore do whatever they want with it. ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 19:32, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not entirely sure what the relevance of that website is to this discussion. Calidum ¤ 20:28, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• It's the first result when you Google "New York", and Google usually does a good job ranking its search results (they hire hundreds of human raters to do this). The point is when most people say NY they mean NYC. At the very least the state isn't primary, and placing the state at baseline for convenience purposes runs counter to the guideline at WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. This isn't "Kansas" vs. "Kansas City". Timmyshin (talk) 21:26, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose as there's nothing wrong with the current set-up. -- Tavix ^(talk) 22:22, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, really? Should I just close it and call myself ignorant of the facts? :O ✉cookiemonster✉ ^𝚨755𝛀 19:17, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Support: per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, both the state and the city are referred to as New York. Would also suggest that we move New York (disambiguation) → New York at the same time as neither the state or the city is the primary topic. Ebonelm (talk) 21:14, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose as proposed and extremely strongly oppose a dab page at New York. The latter is such a waste, ruining everyone's day and wasting everyone's time. But most of the information that NYC's article would have can instead make it to the reader through the state's article; unfortunately, the reverse is not true, which for me dictates that the state should stay primary. Red Slash 21:21, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That view however runs contrary to WP:DAB and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC guidelines. I assume you'll be taking issue with pages such as Washington, Palestine, and Georgia on the grounds that currently nobody gets the page they really want when using these search terms and that it would be better to be really helpful to one small sub-set of searchers but really irritating to the majority? Ebonelm (talk) 00:30, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. The state is clearly not the primary topic for "New York" by any metric laid out at the guideline. Jenks24 (talk) 08:40, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per Jenks24, or move to New York (state). There does not appear to be a WP:Primary topic for the term "New York", so the term needs disambiguation. —BarrelProof (talk) 16:07, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I notice that the other ambiguous U.S. state names are at Georgia (U.S. state) and Washington (state). In line with those examples, I suggest that New York (state) sees preferable to New York State. —BarrelProof (talk) 16:14, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I would be OK with the parenthetical if that is our usual form of disambiguation in these cases. Jenks24 (talk) 20:25, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose Maybe it's the non-American in me, but I definitely think of the state when someone says "New York". Taylor Trescott - ^{my talk} + _{my edits} 17:57, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. This discussion shows that some people think of the state when they think "New York", while some think of the city. In any case, many people think of the state, and as New York State is not limited to one part of the state, that should be the default. The hatnote pointing readers to New York City should be plenty sufficient. And what's more, the New York / New York City titling has worked for years. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Chase (talk | contributions) 20:46, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If the hatnote has proved to be useful, than I will not support my own proposal :O ✉cookiemonster✉ ^𝚨755𝛀 03:04, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - I am the one who proposed this - I will be honest - I live in Oregon and I think of state when someone says New York. If I was to refer to the city, I would refer to the specific borough. ✉cookiemonster✉ ^𝚨755𝛀 03:05, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per the FAQ, and per WP:DONTFIXIT. The hatnote serves well, and there really isn't a clear primary topic. oknazevad (talk) 03:10, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Oknazevad:, you are correct there isn't a clear WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and that's why it should be a DAB page, per the guidelines. Ebonelm (talk) 11:05, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

WP:TWODAB, though. Hatnotes are sufficient, not a dab page. Cuts the number of clicks a reader might need to make, while making the link far more prominent that it would be even on the best designed dab page. It's literally the first thing after the title. oknazevad (talk) 15:08, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect, both the status quo and the propsed move would only require one click. Ebonelm (talk) 15:17, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Then why bother changing it if there's no reduction in clicks? And I still think the hatnote it in a better position to immediately let the reader know if they're in the right place or not. oknazevad (talk) 15:27, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Because the State of New York is not the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of the term 'New York'. The New York State and New York City pages will still have a hatnote link to one another. For the exact same reason we have DAB pages at Georgia and Washington. Ebonelm (talk) 15:59, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. The state is clearly not the primary topic. Possibly there isn't one; If there is it would be New York City. For example, if an Australian newsreader were to say most of New York is currently blacked out that would mean the city, unambiguously. Andrewa (talk) 10:34, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Very poor example. Never has most of the state lost power, even during Hurricane Sandy, likely the most devastating disaster to affect the state in modern history. So of course in that context you'd link it with NYC. ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 12:50, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Very poor logic. While Americans may be aware of these details (or not), most Australians are not. So in this context, the historical facts are irrelevant. Andrewa (talk) 19:18, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, clearly you weren't aware of it to give such an example, but the concept of most of New York losing power is ridiculous and impossible. Nevertheless, New York is definitely the larger topic as well as the larger entity, based on all of the ways it's used and more. Even that sentence should count as proof because I don't really have to specify. New York City is not New York. ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 19:40, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Another poor guess... I'm well aware of these events, but many Australians would not be. As for your confidence that the concept of most of New York losing power is ridiculous and impossible, are you aware that this is what most power engineers thought of the failure that did occur... before it occurred. But that's beside the point really. See more discussion below. Andrewa (talk) 03:28, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Any additional comments:

I note that in the titles New York, New York (So Good They Named It Twice), The Sidewalks of New York, An Englishman in New York, etc., the phrase New York refers to the city. That to me is evidence that the primary topic may be the city. At the very least, in the absence of evidence to the contrary (and the above discussion is long on opinions, short on evidence), it seems to count against any other primary meaning. Andrewa (talk) 03:30, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Oh my goodness, I can't believe I keep missing these important RMs before it's too late. @SSTflyer: please could you reopen? I wholeheartedly support this move, and I have long regarded it as a big anomaly on Wikipedia, where we're following some unwritten rule (that states are automatically superior to cities), rather than our policies. New York state is not primary over the city by either of our two WP:PTOPIC criteria, common usage or long term significance. I will say more about this when I ahve some time. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 09:15, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Also, you say in your close that "both sides have made valid arguments". I'd be interested to know what the valid arguments of the opposers are, other than "we discussed this many times before", and "if it isn't broken, don't fix it". Which aren't valid arguments at all. A few people say that the state is primary for the term over the city, but fail to give any evidence. Whereas the evidence that the state is not the primary topic is quite overwhelming - just type "New York" into Google search or Google books search, and see what the results refer to. A move to New York (state) (to match Washington (state), or indeed New York State is really a no brainer here. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 09:36, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with this. Arguments are supposed to be viewed through the lens of policy. Policy seems to indicate a move, to me.

It is possible, even likely, that in the USA, New York the state is better known than in the rest of the world. I'm still skeptical that the state would be the primary meaning even in the US, but in any case this is English Wikipedia, not US Wikipedia. The city of New York has a world wide fame that the state can't equal, and this is reflected in English usage of the term New York to most often mean the city.

But whether or not the city is the primary meaning is a discussion for another time. This one is about whether the state is the primary meaning. No case has been made that it is in terms of policy and guidelines. Andrewa (talk) 13:24, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.