Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 44

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Two footballers (at least...) by this name, both born in 1886, but they are disambiguated at Harry Lowe and Harry Lowe (footballer born 1886)! Should we move to month of births - March and August? GiantSnowman 17:42, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I think disambiguating them by month of birth should be fine. For the record, there were also two footballers called Harry Lowe born in February 1907: Henry Lowe (born in Skelmersdale on 19 February 1907) and Henry Pratt Lowe (born in Kingskettle on 24 February 1907). – PeeJay 17:51, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, how should we disambiguate the February 1907 Lowes? GiantSnowman 17:55, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Has there ever been a need to include a person's full date of birth as a disambiguator? If not, are we about to set a precedent? – PeeJay 17:59, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Alternatively we could use the middle name and a couple of hatnotes to disambiguate the two. Alzarian16 (talk) 18:00, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

(ec) I've never seen it in my 4+ years here, and to be honest it's not ideal. But unless we can disambiguate by something else (full name? playing position?) we may indeed have to do so...GiantSnowman 18:03, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

It appears that Henry Lowe played as a left-back for Southport, Everton, Preston and Swindon, while Henry Pratt Lowe played as an inside forward/right-half for Watford and QPR. Make of that what you will. – PeeJay 18:07, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Harry Lowe (defender born 1907) and Harry Lowe (forward born 1907)? GiantSnowman 18:09, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Good idea, probably the best yet. Now all we need to do is actually create the articles... Alzarian16 (talk) 18:15, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

I have moved the 1886 players to their month-of-birth article names, fixed links, and turned Harry Lowe into a disambiguation opage with all four players listed. GiantSnowman 18:41, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

A few days ago the Premier League Dubious Goals Panel announced some rulings, among which they awarded Jensen's own goal in Birmingham-Burnley to Cameron Jerome, can't imagine why, but that's by the by... However, the Premier League stats page still gives Mr Jerome 10 goals, which is his total without the dubious one. I've emailed Soccerbase to ask what their policy on counting these things is, but on past experience, I don't expect a reply. Does anybody happen to know whether Rothmans/Sky Sports Annual adjusts their figures to take account of Dubious Goals Panel rulings? cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:14, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

It says "confirmed as a Cameron Jerome" goal. There's a couple of goals on there which have been overturned and specifically say so. I think most of those 32, including the Cameron Jerome goal, haven't changed. So Cameron Jerome is still correctly on 10 goals. 91.106.111.52 (talk) 21:23, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Agree the wording's odd, but if that was correct, a) which of these 10 shouldn't he have; b) why does the club think the Dubious Goals Panel ruling puts him up to 11; and c} why does the match report on the Premier League website give it as a Jensen own goal? cheers, Struway2 (talk) 21:41, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps, the Premier League has misworded the story or forgotten he wasn't credited with the goal in the first place. Perhaps email the Premier League rather than Soccerbase. In response to your first question, I suspect the SS annual will have updated figures - I've previously seen them change attendance figures to ones that were updated after matches. 91.106.111.52 (talk) 22:00, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Rothmans/Sky Sports has always adjusted the goalscorers in the past Cattivi (talk) 09:55, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Cattivi, thought they probably would, but it's nice to know. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 11:58, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

I noticed an inconsistency of the formats chosen to represent the titles of the articles documenting the seasons of CSKA Sofia. There are, currently, the articles PFC CSKA Sofia 2008–09 season, PFC CSKA Sofia season 2009–10, and PFC CSKA Sofia season 2010–11. The former uses the format "PFC CSKA Sofia <yearspan> season" for its title, whereas the other two have been formatted as "PFC CSKA Sofia season <yearspan>". I wished to unify those, and checked up this category and its subcategories. Here's the inconsistency I found there.

I do feel we ought to reach a consensus on how to unify all the existing and yet-to-be-created articles of that kind, and to actually unify them. Also, Category:Saudi Arabia Football (soccer) clubs 2009–10 season needs to be renamed as Category:Saudi Arabia football (soccer) clubs 2009–10 season, with a lowercase "f". --Магьосник (talk) 05:02, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Please note that the article PFC CSKA Sofia 2008–09 season belongs to neither of the above two groups. --Магьосник (talk) 05:10, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

We already did come up with a consensus at the season article task force. The preferred format is "[yearspan] [club] season". – PeeJay 08:43, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

It is unfortunate that this respected football editor has decided to take a prolonged break from Wikipedia due to problems with other users/policies. Please take note of his reasons, although I hope he does subsequently return. Eldumpo (talk) 08:22, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

I have added "Free transfer" to the contents of Transfer (association football).

There does not appear to be a need for the article stub Free transfer (football).

219.75.69.202 (talk) 02:41, 30 May 2010 (UTC) Rajiv

The whole point of the past argument about the format is to have one not only good on info but also eye-friendly (because the current one sucks).

I propose a small change to the table format to have a "colspan" after each final or whatever as well as adding a width limitation to everything to make it look neat.

i.e.

Year	Country	Home team	Score	Away team	Country	Venue	Location	Refs
1960	URU	Peñarol	1–0	Olimpia	PAR	Estadio Centenario	Montevideo, Uruguay	[1]
	PAR	Olimpia	1–1	Peñarol	URU	Estadio de Puerto Sajonia	Asunción, Paraguay
	Peñarol won 3–1 on points
1961	URU	Peñarol	1–0	Palmeiras	BRA	Estadio Centenario	Montevideo, Uruguay	[1]
	BRA	Palmeiras	1–1	Peñarol	URU	Estádio do Pacaembu	São Paulo, Brazil
	Peñarol won 3–1 on points

What does everyone think? The list of Recopa Sudamericana winners' list looks like garbage right now and with my modification we can keep it somewhat simple without needing to separate a winner's list 5-10 times over. Look how much better the List of Copa Libertadores winners looks now than before. Jamen Somasu (talk) 14:23, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

This table looks OK, but I don't like the colspan between the two years. Seems unnecessary. – PeeJay 14:54, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

The colspan is to separate every edition from each other in order to not make it look all jumbled up. It looks crappy with only two editions but it looks a lot better when there are 50+ editions to look at. I have also combined it with some new limitations on the width of each section to make it look neat and organized. Jamen Somasu (talk) 14:58, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

People aren't stupid; they don't need a big fat line to separate each year. – PeeJay 14:59, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, but we should also strive to make information eye-friendlier (because the current version looks like crap). For UEFA pages where the finals are single matches, this is not needed. I should have been a bit more specific...this is for final series that involves two matches. On those sort of tables, not having this colspan (or something that can slightly separate every edition from each other) makes it look like pure crap. Jamen Somasu (talk) 15:05, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

empty table rows are bad for accessibility. We shouldn't use them for the sake of mere aesthetics. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 15:22, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

There is no one trying to access anything on the "empty row" since there is NOTHING in there but a small line (that is what it basically is). As a matter of fact, the FIFA World Cup page also uses this idea in the same way (although vertically) and it was welcomed! And that is a FA! This wouldn't be the first (or last) time something originally used for a purpose is taken and used for another purpose making a great contribution. Jamen Somasu (talk) 15:31, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

But the current World Cup top4 table doesn't look good. Cluttered with unnecessary colours and those extra lines. Imo List of European Cup and UEFA Champions League winners has by far the best looking table style. I actually have proposed to move away to the FL style used on the UEFA finals for the World Cup (but there was never much discussion). A similar style as already been applied to List of FIFA World Cup finals

I also think the line between years is unnecessary. Look at the UEFA Cup finals to see that it works fine (They were played in two legs before) chandler 15:51, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

The current World Cup top4 looks good and it is eye-frienly & informative. It IS a FA for a reason. What works for UEFA pages work only for UEFA pages, not everyone else. This is just for CONMEBOL; South American finals usually has a final series, not just a single match, which is why that line helps a lot. As I keep metioning, we should strive to make an article be its best for what it is, not what something completely different from it has. That's ludicrous. For CONMEBOL, it is needed. I could care less about UEFA's pages and if you think it looks good on their pages, good for you. However, UEFA and CONMEBOL are two different monsters that run things way too differently to have the same formats and tables (as well as the FIFA World Cup). Jamen Somasu (talk) 16:10, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

There is NO reason why table formats should be different for different confederations. They should very obviously be standardized. As I said, the UEFA Cup was played in two-legged matches until the last 90s. It's not a case of "what works for UEFA ONLY works for UEFA", everything is designed to work for EVERYTHING. chandler 16:39, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

"Accessibility" means the ability of visually or physically impaired users to access our content. Please see WP:ACCESS. Whether or not GA-class articles have problems is neither here nor there, as GA review is not perfect. This is still a problem. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 19:51, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

The posted layout looks excellent. Keep up the good work! Sandman888 (talk) 16:33, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Looks ok apart from the needless empty row. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:31, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree this looks okay. Visually, though the downfall is that the country information is kind of unnecessarily repeated. Additionally, the information is not sortable. I realise the main problem of going for a Winner/Loser system instead of Home/Away system is denoting the home/away legs etc. This is just a suggestion, but what do people think about going along the lines of this (added benefit of sortability) with a sort key used for the aggregate score. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 21:01, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Year	Country	Winner	Score	Loser	Country	Venue	Location	Refs
1960	URU	Peñarol	1–0 (h) 1–1 (a)	Olimpia	PAR	Estadio Centenario Estadio de Puerto Sajonia	Montevideo, Uruguay Asunción, Paraguay	[1]
1961	URU	Peñarol	1–0 (h) 1–1 (a)	Palmeiras	BRA	Estadio Centenario Estádio do Pacaembu	Montevideo, Uruguay São Paulo, Brazil	[1]

Now then. That's a good way forward. A very good way. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:06, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

The empty row needs to go, as Chris said above, on accessibility grounds. But I was just wondering why anyone would actually want to sort on aggregate score? In the current List of Copa Libertadores winners format, the summary line after the lines with the scores tells the reader how the winner was determined (points, playoff score and venue, penalties...) You can't make the table sortable without losing that informative summary line, and from the reader's point of view, sticking that highly relevant information in a footnote wouldn't be an adequate replacement. Surely the loss to the reader of removing that summary line rather exceeds any theoretical benefit gained from forcing sortability onto a table that doesn't seem to have anything particularly worth sorting on? cheers, Struway2 (talk) 21:39, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Personally, I think this way the winner becomes much more obvious at a glance. As for the summary line, all it is basically saying is, for example, that one match was a draw and one was a win. Isn't that painstakingly obvious from the scores? The sorting is beneficial for example sorting countries - gives you if numerous teams represent that country in the final, whether that country was more prolific in an era by looking at the years alongside country, and many other statistical patterns that might be found in the data. IMO sorting is almost always desirable. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 22:24, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

First, sorry if my previous comments came across a bit aggressive, I was tired and snappy last night and shouldn't have been on here at all :-( However... In the two rows illustrated, the summary line is indeed saying only that one match was a draw and the other a win. But that isn't the case for all entries in the table. Some winners were determined on a playoff, or on pens after a playoff, or on pens without a playoff, and the details are given in the summary line conveniently for the reader as part of that year's table entry, not buried elsewhere. I have no problem with adding sortability where it's helpful, but I'm not convinced that in this case, providing ready access to statistical patterns, for those interested readers who actually know that those funny buttons at the top mean you can sort the columns, outweighs losing basic information like how the 1981 winner won 2-0 in a playoff in a neutral country or the 1985 final went to a playoff and then penalties. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 07:41, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

As you may have noticed I'm quite a fan of sortability. Although not perfect, I believe the information above can also be incorportated into a sortable table—see below. Additionally you also then get given the location of the neutral playoff. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 10:25, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

That latest version does now include enough of the relevant information for the general reader not to lose out. Not keen on the general appearance of that layout, but my personal taste probably isn't all that relevant to the matter :-) I'd be interested to know how often people (ordinary readers, not WP editors) actually do sort columns in sortable tables. Don't suppose it's something that's ever been recorded, even if it was technically possible. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 11:32, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

I seriously see no point in making these lists sortable. --MicroX (talk) 22:46, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

...and I find the 1% width separating row pointless and a reader's nightmare. It was fine the way it was. I only recommend that the winner be in bold, not in italics. It's WAY easier to see bold text. --MicroX (talk) 21:45, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

I created his page on italian wikipedia (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Arangelovich), he was a serbian player in Italy between 1947 and 1952: he emigrated in Canada and then in Australia: please, do you have news about him?93.33.6.63 (talk) 17:50, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

The player's article - Aleksandar Arangelovic - was actually created by myself over two years ago. That's all the info I can find on the guy. Regards, GiantSnowman 18:15, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

As a Serbian footy editor I can only say that what GiantSnowman did is excellent, and hardly something more can be added. I can only say that his name probably is "Aleksandar AranDJelović" (being the letter DJ also written as Đ, both correct in Serbian, and sounds as Italian "G" in Giorgio), but was probably addapted to Italian to "Aleksandar Arangelovic" because that way would be correctly pronounced. Aleksandar is certainly with A, not "Aleksander"... I´ll check in the next few days to see if there is possibly anything new about him, but I doubt. FkpCascais (talk) 18:57, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

I was looking for something really impossible, his career in Australia and Canada.. thank you very much for you help and if you need help to translate from italian in basic english I'm ready..93.33.6.63 (talk) 19:05, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

There is no record of him playing in Australia - so maybe he emigrated there as a normal citizen? GiantSnowman 19:14, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

or he played as amateur in an minoor league.. who knows it? A source says he played also for jugoslavian NT, possible?93.33.6.63 (talk) 19:20, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

No record of him playing for Yugoslav A team. 100% sure. FkpCascais (talk) 19:24, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

youth NTs teams, maybe? It seems it's written everything is possible knowing about him..93.33.6.63 (talk) 19:32, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, U-21 were mot much in vogue those days, but instead there were city selections (Belgrade, Zagreb, Sarajevo...). But records for them are impossible to be found. Since he played for Belgrade clubs, he may played for the selection of Belgrade (the city selections were formed by players of the city clubs, not necessarily players born in the city), but they were formed mostly of young players from BSK Beograd and SK Jugoslavija, being his club, Jedinstvo, the 4th, 5th of the city, so it would be hard to imagine him selected for it. On the other hand, he was 21 when WWII begin in Yugoslavia (1941-1945), so his career may be affected by it. He didn´t played for any Olympic team either, so I could possibly affirm that he would hardly had played for some national team. Sorry... :) It is not impossible that he played, or, there was also back then the Yugoslav B team, but unfortunatelly there are no records for it. FkpCascais (talk) 19:48, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

I have his stats in Ligue 1 : 8 matches, 1 goal in 51-52 for RC Paris. (from the classic Barreaud, Marc (1998). Dictionnaire des footballeurs étrangers du championnat professionnel français (1932-1997). L'Harmattan, Paris. ISBN 2-7384-6608-7.). He is named AleksandAr Arangelovic in the book. Cheers.--Latouffedisco (talk) 08:40, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

By the way, I think you're right about his name FkpCascais. Check the 1947 line of this where he is named Aleksandar Aranđelović – nicknamed „Aca autobus“. If correct article should be renamed--Latouffedisco (talk) 08:45, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

This could be useful.--Latouffedisco (talk) 08:48, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Haha...nice nickname, "Aca autobus", meaning "Aca the bus", that´s a great nickname for a striker! Yes, that seems to be him, and I would also support the move, leaving a redirect. Many thanx! FkpCascais (talk) 08:55, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

please, can you translate what there is written in the two links above? Thanks!!93.32.249.46 (talk) 18:36, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Article renamed, according to new references. However, there is an iconstantency about his date of birth. Weltfussball and RSSSF give 18/12/1920, Red Star Belgrade website 18/01/1920 and my French book given in the article 18/02/1920??? Which one should be trusted? To translate the Serbian page, use google translate, that's what I do. Cheers.--Latouffedisco (talk) 18:48, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

the problem is also the place of birth, some italian sources write he was in a city near the border with Bulgaria and the year of birth sometime is written as 1922.. then if a serbian is so nice to translate it would be better, I could do big mistakes with google translate :))..93.33.7.94 (talk) 10:41, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Any help with this article will be much appreciated (and finding references is harder than you would imagine). TheBigJagielka (talk) 21:41, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

AS Nancy is a successor for FC Nancy, such as Toulouse FC for Toulouse FC (1937).--Latouffedisco (talk) 09:34, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

I was surprised that Halifax Town weren't there. I've added them and included a couple of references. The English list doesn't appear to be in any particular order - Alphabetically or year of reformation are the two most obvious choices. Argyle 4 Life^talk 01:47, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

I enlarged Astorri voice on italian wikipedia but please now I need desperately :)) all the informations available for his career as coach in Denmark, why he emigrated, what he did and so on.. thank you very much!!93.33.7.94 (talk) 10:45, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Template:Sevilla FC managers states that someone called Pepe Brand was manager from 1917-1921, from 1939-1941, and in 1942. This site confirms the latter two spells, but his date of birth is given as 1900, meaning if he was manager in 1917, he was still a teenager! Were there perhaps two Pepe Brands, father and son? GiantSnowman 17:27, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

What I can say is that he began playing for Sevilla FC senior team in 1917.--Latouffedisco (talk) 09:40, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Player-manager at the age of 17? Impressive! GiantSnowman 18:38, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Hum, I don't really know...But at these times, "managers" were not always full-time ones. So, he could have been a kind of head coach, given his playing abilities...According to this [1] he was joint-coach with D. Eugenio Eizaguirre. Moreover, football in Spain was mainly regional at these times. So it looks like he was player-coach at the age of 17. He is considered as the first great Sevilla FC player, he was also a guest for Celta Vigo in 1928, according to this [2]. He definitely worths an article....--Latouffedisco (talk) 19:18, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

I have created a little stub at Pepe Brand, any improvement is more than welcome! GiantSnowman 23:47, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Will the new Dutch third tier be fully professional? GiantSnowman 21:49, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

It will be semi-professional. The main difference between the old Hoofdklasse and the Topklasse is that clubs can pay players directly now. In the old Hoofdklasse (some) players were payed by sponsors. There is no minimum number of (semi)professional players for clubs to get a license. Some clubs like Quick '20 will probably remain amateur. Cattivi (talk) 09:32, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

That's great, thanks very much! GiantSnowman 23:48, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Are templates such as this and this worthy of Wikipedia? GiantSnowman 23:58, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

If the club is professional and/or has a stand-alone article on the subject then I don't see a problem, but then the first one you list was created by me, so I might be a bit biased. ;-) I've been here for six months now but I don't remember it being discussed at any length. I guess the question is, where do you draw the line? I've seen numerous templates on player pages which include Player of the Year awards, Top Goalscorer for a particular division and Team of the Year, here is an example. Argyle 4 Life^talk 01:20, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

I think such Player of the Year templates are OK as long as they are suitably referenced in the main club article. Eldumpo (talk) 08:50, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

It appears that the categories for World Cup players (e.g. Category:1930 FIFA World Cup players) are used to collect all players who were in the squad for that tournament, rather than those who actually played in a game, despite the name of the category and the fact that the category explanatory text has the wording 'players who participated in'. I think these categories should only be for players who actually played in a match at the World Cup finals. I agree it is still noteworthy to collate who was in the squad but this is already being picked up by the squad list articles (e.g. 1930 FIFA World Cup squads) and the individual team templates (e.g.

). At present, there seems to be no means in Wikipedia to easily gather people who actually played a game in the finals. This change would tie in with other competitions in Wikipedia i.e. you would not include someone in Category:La Liga footballers if they had only ever appeared on the bench. At the very least I feel the category names should change and the introductory text should be altered (if the consensus is to record squads rather than those who played). What are people's views? Eldumpo (talk) 09:11, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

I prefer the current convention, for the following reasons:

• The general public and media seem to recognize a player as a "2010 FIFA World Cup player" once he is included in the squad, regardless of whether he plays a match. (On the other hand, does a 16-year-old who signs for a La Liga club qualifies as a La Liga player? I don't know....)
• Another problem is obviously that we will have to go back to check the database of previous World Cups to see who plays a match or not. Besides, with the 2010 squad announcement coming tomorrow, people will start to populate the category Category:2010 FIFA World Cup players. What do we tell them? Not to add a player to the category until he plays a match? Or remove a player from the category afterwards if he does not play a match? It will be a logistical nightmare.
• We also have Category:FIFA World Cup-winning players. Currently every player on the winning squad, whether he plays or not, gets a medal, so I think we have to include all 23 players into this category. So we may have the strange case of somebody in Category:FIFA World Cup-winning players but not in Category:2010 FIFA World Cup players.

I think if you really want to be totally accurate about the category names, we can call them, say, "2010 FIFA World Cup squad players" or "2010 FIFA World Cup squad members". Of course, at the very least we should change the introductory text to properly define the categories. Chanheigeorge (talk) 09:49, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, modern convention in international tournaments is that all squad members, including those who did not play, are recognised as full participants; this has also been retro-acted (see here). Changing the wording and perhaps category title is a good idea. Pretty Green (talk) 12:58, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Hi! There's a revert war going on at Gençlerbirliği S.K. between a few users and User:Plexus14. I've left a message on the talk page, as well as on Plexus14's talk page, explaining why he's wrong. The war going on here is about Billy Mehmet's citizenship and how he should be listed. Plexus14 says that because Mehmet obtained Turkish citizenship, he should appear as a Turkish player (although he gives no source of this).

However, according to Wikipedia:MOSFLAG#Use of flags for sportspeople, Mehmet should be listed as an Irish international because has played for their U-21 team. I would appreciate if an admin could help settle this mini-feud because I would like to get started on a rewrite of the article (it's almost entirely unsourced, and it should be rewritten because they are one of the more popular clubs in Turkey). Thank you! Invisibletr (talk) 15:10, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

This topic first came up at the season article task force's discussion page a couple of weeks ago: would it be possible for us to do away with boxes such as this:

2006 World Cup Winners
Italy Fourth title

I don't see the point in having an extra box to tell us who the winners of a competition were, when it usually clearly says who the winners were several times further up the page. It seems to me that these boxes serve no purpose other than as decoration. Who's with me? – PeeJay 21:51, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

I concur - totally pointless. I have deleted them from league season articles where I've come accross them. пﮟოьεԻ 57 21:58, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. We've got more than enough existing templates for use on competition articles which make these points clear. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 22:10, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

I like them. For the most part they are not templates and it sums up the accomplishment of the winning them in a conspicuous way (in addition to the any prose, of course). I would rather have this than (C) in league standings (the latter requiring me to look up what it means). Digirami (talk) 22:35, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, it's better than having the (C) in the league table, but surely it would be obvious from the league rankings who won the league anyway? It's not a matter of having one or the other. We could easily do away with both and simply mention who won the competition in the lead section. – PeeJay 22:38, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

I also reckon that the winner boxes do no harm and they are less useless than some of the annotation floating about which is not even in use. But not always the top team wins the championship - The team could be stripped of the title for past misgivings. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 22:43, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

This discussion is not about annotations. Any anomalies relating to the awarding of the league title should be mentioned in prose, not using a template such as {{winners}}, which doesn't actually explain the anomalous situation anyway. For example, if there is a championship play-off, it should be obvious who won the play-off through the use of {{footballbox}} to show the match result. If a team is later stripped of the league title, this should be mentioned in prose too. – PeeJay 22:53, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Sometimes there isn't a standing that would define the champion (which almost happened this year in Uruguay and happens every year in Chile). Obviously, it could be easy to deduce without this little box... but it doesn't hurt to have a little something extra to make it obvious and clear to any reader who the champion is outside the lead (perhaps if they are just breezing through). Digirami (talk) 22:56, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Pointless redundant repetition. If it's not clear who the champions are, improve the text. It's just an excuse to have yet another flag draped about for little other than decoration. Knepflerle (talk) 23:20, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

No more pointless than to give a PeeJay lookalike the go ahead and play master administrator because he doesn't like the color of some flag. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 23:25, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Keep your comments on the issue rather than the editors. Knepflerle (talk) 23:26, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

The editors aren't the issue - They do a fine job. Its the PeeJay lookalikes.

Let me guess, would no true editor support the removal of the flags? Knepflerle (talk) 23:38, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Consider this a warning. Refrain from attacking other editors or you'll find yourself blocked. This idiotic rivalry you have with PeeJay2K3 isn't improving the encyclopedia. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 08:18, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Incidentally, this was taken to TfD a couple of years ago for precisely this reason, and in a rather poor close was basically kept as WP:USEFUL. I don't think anything's changed to make the template more worthy since then. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 08:27, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't see the value of these flags, especially the size of them. You should have the winners in the infobox and lead at the top of the article, so if that's all you want to know, you need not scroll all the way down. Then, in the detail of the article, it tells you who beat who in the final. It's a bit insulting to the reader's intelligence to add a decorative flag immediately afterwards. --Jameboy (talk) 17:54, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

It's even worse in domestic club competition articles, as there isn't even a flag in there. Just redundant text. – PeeJay 19:30, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Why worse? Just add the club emblem instead. Is that too hard? Brudder Andrusha (talk) 16:38, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

You must not be aware of WP:FAIRUSE. Any non-free content must be accompanied by a valid Fair Use rationale. However, since the club logos would only be used for decoration, this would not be deemed to be Fair Use. Nice try though. Let's delete the boxes. – PeeJay 18:05, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

So are we deleting these or what? – PeeJay 13:59, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm in favor of deleting these and I already have in some articles though some people revert. The winner appears in the infobox to begin with, so no reason to put this box. Delete! --MicroX (talk) 02:40, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm in favour of making them smaller. It adds some information at-a-glance that the table doesn't always convey. the size is really too large. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:35, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Someone has just deleted all historical data about the club (founded in 1911), only because the club was bankropted and re-created again in 2005. Should the situation be this way? The club has the same name, same logo, same stadium, same colours... should in this cases the article only contain the historical info about the "legal" history of the club, and another article (same name) done on the previous club (predecessor), or the situation should just be described in the same article (as I beleave)? See the last complete version here, [3], and compare it wih the current one. FkpCascais (talk) 04:15, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

P.S.:It was me that added and sourced the former players section, that includes the historical players, it was only after that I saw the massive changes that someone has done to the club article. FkpCascais (talk) 04:18, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

The editor goes the wrong way. He should at least create an article about the defunct club.--Latouffedisco (talk) 09:43, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Should the info about the previous club be restored? Because, creating another article with same name... I don´t know... FkpCascais (talk) 19:17, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

I am currently engaging in a disagreement with Jafdfm regarding the France national football team's numbers for the World Cup. So on 24 May, the FFF sent in the current official numbers to FIFA that the players will wear at the World Cup sourced here. However, in the ensuring two friendly matches, a couple of players are wearing numbers that contradicts the official FFF source such as Anelka and Ribery wearing 22 and 39. Regarding Anelka, players are only allowed to wear numbers 1–23 in official competition. My stance is keep the numbers the FFF initially sent to FIFA until there is official mention that the numbers have been change. Jafdfm's stance is change the numbers to the numbers being worn in the friendlies without any confirmation other than the numbers are being worn in friendlies, which I disagree with. Joao10Siamun (talk) 21:25, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

You definitely appear to be in the right here. Mattythewhite (talk) 21:35, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

I told the user to come here to explain his argument. The user has refused and continues to revert the page without legitimate reason. I told the user that until there is official confirmation of a number change then he/she can change them. The user ignores the comments. I have requested page protection because I am not a fan of edit wars.Joao10Siamun (talk) 21:43, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

That list was released 24th, the frendly was last night. Why would players like Ribery, Govou change numbers betwen friendlies and THE World Cup? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jafdfm (talk • contribs) 21:49, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Dude, I understand your grievance. My point is, and for the last time, wait until it is announced that the numbers have officially changed then change them. How can you not understand that. Joao10Siamun (talk) 21:53, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

In domestic football, players wear 1-11 in friendly matches. But they are not official numbers! Same with the World Cup...GiantSnowman 02:13, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

In WC, players' numbers are given from 1 to 23. So, Anelka will not wear his strange number 39 in South Africa...--Latouffedisco (talk) 20:42, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Please see Template talk:Infobox football biography 2#Footnote font size, where I propose to fix the very small footnotes in {{Infobox football biography 2}}. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 11:11, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

The club season articles are now being titled (example) 2010-11 Manchester United F.C. season, but it doesn't seem right to me. Having the year(s) and the word season on the opposite end of the title, when usually it's written 2010-11 season. Surely it make more sense if it was written 'Manchester United F.C. season 2010-11' or 'Manchester United F.C. 2010-11 season'. It would also be more clear to read that way.

I was wondering what everyone thought about this. (Bobbymozza) (talk) 19.15 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Basic English grammar dictated the naming format. "Manchester United F.C.", as an adjective, modifies "season" and goes in front of that word. "2010-11", as another adjective, modifies "Manchester United F.C. season" and goes in front of all that. "Manchester United F.C. season 2010-11" makes no grammatical sense. "Manchester United F.C. 2010-11 season" would only make sense if you add an "('s)" to Manchester United F.C. (i.e. "Manchester United F.C.'s 2010-11 season"). That's it in a nutshell. Digirami (talk) 18:35, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Digirami explained it pretty well. Even though it can sometimes still be an awkward-sounding title and/or require a little extra markup to make the articles sort properly within the categories, this is still the best way to title articles. JohnnyPolo24 (talk) 19:13, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Then why don't other websites write it this way aswell? When searching for fixtures it most commonly says 'Manchester United fixtures 2009/10'. The majority of other websites don't use a title like this, other than Wikipedia. I've just been looking through the archives at similar discussions, i see that up until a year a ago they wasn't being titled this way and Digirami was the person who requested the change to all articles. So it's no surprise he thinks it's better like this. I still think they would be titled better the way i suggested, as was before. Whether it's grammatically correct or not. Because that's the way it's done and reads better that way. (Bobbymozza) (talk) 20.28 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Ya, I proposed it because the previous format (with the year at the end) made no sense. It is grammatically incorrect to say "Manchester United F.C. season 2010-11" and no one speaks and/or reads that way. Besides, the naming convention I proposed had already been in use for all professional sports teams in the US (MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL, MLS). We finally caught on proper English usage. Digirami (talk) 20:12, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

I just created his voice on italian wikipedia, please, do you have more news about him?93.33.8.162 (talk) 06:09, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

This website has information about a Vladimír Weiss born in 1964. Unfortunately, I don't think it covers players who played before 1980. Jogurney (talk) 14:54, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

thank you very much, but I need infos about the VW from 1939.. the VW from 1964 is the son, actual Slovacchia NT coach, where his son, VW III plays.. I know it seems a joke but it's truth, read his voice.. thank you very much anyway!!93.32.244.43 (talk) 21:18, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

The project previously developed notability guidelines for football biographies at WP:FOOTYN, and these including the following criteria:

1. Have played FIFA recognised senior international football or football at the Olympic games.

A new set of guidelines was created at WP:NSPORTS, and these include a slightly different criteria for football biographies:

1. Players, managers and referees who have represented their country in any officially sanctioned senior international competition (including the Olympics) are notable as they have achieved the status of participating at the highest level of football.

I wanted to get input from other members (it's probably easiest to have the discussion on the WP:NPSORTS talk page) because I had always understood that FIFA "A" international matches (includes friendlies) were sufficient under WP:FOOTYN. The new WP:NSPORTS guideline suggests that only officially sanctioned competitions (whatever that means) would qualify and not FIFA "A" international friendlies. Best regards. Jogurney (talk) 15:26, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Good spot. Though from what you wrote above, it's says 'competition', not 'competitions'. Not sure if that makes much diffence.

Friendlies are seen as official matches by FIFA (unless they're playing a U21 team or non-FIFA nation), so they should be included. Bobbymozza (Bobbymozza) 16:06 3 June 2010 (UTC)

I am on the process of making the Copa Libertadores article into a GA to eventually become a FA. Please give feedback on what you think might actually make it better. I have revamped this thing from corner to corner and I am out of ideas; peer review helped some but I would like to see what the WIKIProject Football people think. Jamen Somasu (talk) 22:09, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Grabbed a couple things flagged at [4] and [5]. There is one link flagged at [6]. I have not had the chance to go through it all but keep me in the loop if you need a hand.Cptnono (talk) 05:15, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

I fixed the "bad" links. Anything else? I am out of ideas.Jamen Somasu (talk) 08:43, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

It seems that the page's review time is getting near. Please review here and check the page out. I would like to hear any critics or anything that could be fixed. Jamen Somasu (talk) 15:59, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Is there any basis for this? As far as I can tell it's just an overzealous fan of CONCACAF that wants something that resembles the UEFA coefficients for his/her region. However, I can't find any factual basis for this information. Am I missing anything? JohnnyPolo24 (talk) 18:19, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

That page looks like original research to me. --MicroX (talk) 18:23, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

It's original research on behalf of the bloggers in the references by the looks of things. Any reason you didn't ask the author first? Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 18:35, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

So can we put this up for deletion? I'm not really familiar with the up for deletion process. --MicroX (talk) 21:47, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

According to WP:NOTCSD:

The following are not by themselves sufficient to justify speedy deletion.
3. Original research. It is not always easy to tell whether an article consists of material that violates the policy against novel theories or interpretations or is simply unsourced."

Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 21:57, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't think speedying it was being discussed, but rather the usual XfD process. As a first step it would still be a good idea to at least raise the issue with Dohertypenguin (talk · contribs) - Grant Alpaugh has brought it up, but as this is a new user it might be wise to take it from the top. After that, or if there's no response, ping me and I'll AfD it. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 22:01, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi, can anyone tell me about Carlos Tevez height? Man city website says 5'8 (173cm) but imho 173cm is being generous. Official premier league website says 168cm as BBC and Soccerbase. Other sources as ESPN say 170cm and other one (a monority) say 169cm. So... that's a controversy but the prevalence is for 5'6 (168cm). For more details you can read User talk:PeeJay2K3#Tevez. Thanks everyone for help --Exorcist Z (talk) 18:37, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

I have just created a new template that would unite many of the different aspects of CONMEBOL's football system.

This new template has effectively obsoleted several old templates that used to hang around. Could I get any feedback as to improve it? Jamen Somasu (talk) 12:02, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Looking good in general, but I don't like that dark blue as it makes the "Show" option almost invisible. Would you consider changing it? Alzarian16 (talk) 12:06, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

The background colours make a lot of the text very hard to read indeed, Chile and Brazil being particularly bad. Could we restrict the coloured text and backgrounds to just the country names titling each column? Knepflerle (talk) 12:15, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

(Alzarian16) If there is no other way, yeah. But I would like to try make it work with the color it has now (it is the color of the Union of South American nations and that is why I thought it would be appropriate to pick). I would like to find a way to make the font of the "show" option white.

(Knepflerle)Yeah...we might as well. But before that, let me see if I can get lighter colors. Jamen Somasu (talk) 12:26, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

A good clear box, but I'd consider making it much less colourful, perhaps if possible 'bordering' each country with colour but nothing more. Bear in mind some readers may be colour-blind, or have other reading difficulties which make the use of colours inappropriate - see WP:COLOUR. Note too that red text should be avoided as people will think it is a broken link like this one--Pretty Green (talk) 13:18, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Ok...we can go along with simply leaving the nation headers colored and everything else would be normal. And we could add borders...any ideas as to how one does that?Jamen Somasu (talk) 13:50, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Regarding the colour scheme: how about blue text on a white background? That would allow us to use the same colours while improving the visibility of the text. Alzarian16 (talk) 13:54, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, good idea and I already applied it. Now, the only problem will be bordering and that is something I am still trying to figure out...any ideas? Jamen Somasu (talk) 14:19, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I think having the nation header coloured and the rest not coloured is a good idea. I'm afraid I don't know too much about constructing tables, but Help:Table suggests that coloured borders are possible; if not, do not worry about them! Pretty Green (talk) 15:38, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Ok...how about now? Jamen Somasu (talk) 16:50, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

You need to add something to the title that says "CONMEBOL" since Suriname and Guyana are in South America but are not included in that template for the fact that they are in CONCACAF. Something like how the Years in South American football templates are. Digirami (talk) 17:33, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

There is still one more template you should merge or incorporate (I would incorporate).

It would seem pertinent to the template you created. Digirami (talk) 17:41, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I incorporated the "football in...." pages into it. However, the navbox is intended for South American football affiliated to CONMEBOL (which is why I had it specified at the top with CONMEBOL). Seeing the history of those other territories, some of them actually belong to CONCACAF (and a few of them aren't even physically part of South America); their information is far more proper there. The other ones haven't played an international match against any South American team; they all play other non-FIFA teams in Europe. Perhaps the nation those colonies belong to can be added to those pages and maybe even UEFA's but it definetly doesn't belong up there with CONMEBOL.

BTW, the name of the template is "South American Football (CONMEBOL)" because it pertains to South American football AFFILIATED o CONMEBOL, not "football in South America" which is football in the continent regardless of their affiliations. The navbox upthere, once again, is intended for CONMEBOL. Jamen Somasu (talk) 18:39, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

There is a problem with the wording "South American Football": it could mean a different type of football, not just football related to South America. To use another area of the world, if you were using the wording "Canadian football": would you be referring to this or this? "Football in South America" is more precise to the topic at hand. Digirami (talk) 18:56, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunetly, that argument would only work in CONCACAF and Europe (where the sport is known by many different names i.e. calcion, soccer, fussball, etc). As you so adequately put, that might work for usage in another area of the world. Unfortunetly for you, the sport is known as "futbol" in every nation affiliated to CONMEBOL. Besides that, American football is not even played seriously in the continent; 2nd most important sports in South American nations affiliated to CONMEBOL would be basketball and rugby. No one has any idea what American football is. Jamen Somasu (talk) 19:19, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Obviously you don't get the point. What is "South American football"? Thanks to the wonders of the English language, the adjectives "South American" could make "South American football" mean 1) a different type of football played in South American or of South American origin (in the same way "American" or "Canadian" in "American football" or "Canadian football" mean different types of football), or 2) football in South America. Compare that to "Football in South America", which which only can mean one thing: football in South America. "Football in South America" is clearer, to the point, and on topic. Digirami (talk) 19:53, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Another concern just occurred to me: standardization across the confederations. This approach may seem fine and dandy for CONMEBOL since it has 10 associated member nations (and maybe Oceania). But what if we tried to created on for Asia and it's 46 member nations, or Europe with 51 member nations, or Africa with 55 member nations, or North American with 40 member nations following the format of CONMEBOL, templates for that associations would be monstrous in size and complexity. Either we find a way to streamline this for the larger confederations, or abandon this approach and stick with what we already have in place. Digirami (talk) 20:16, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

• Note The two editors above have again been blocked for engaging in edit warring. Opinions from other interested editors would be great. Rettetast (talk) 21:02, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

This entire template seems like a horrible idea to me. It's too large, highly decorative – especially all of the colors and flags – the stacked columns make it awkward, and the same format could not be used for any other confederations. Also, WP:FOOTY agreed to use {{Navbox}} on navigational templates, and this template does not conform to that. JohnnyPolo24 (talk) 14:59, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

That seems a bit harsh. It's true that it doesn't conform to the recognised design, but I quite like how it's laid out: it's very comprehensive, has fewer redlinks than the ones it replaces, is fairly easy to navigate around (not awkward at all in my view) and the flags work quite well (although I agree that the number of colours could be reduced). Alzarian16 (talk) 16:31, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Sorry about that. I know that the intention is good, and it definitely would be nice to include more information on some nav templates. However, there is simply too much information and extraneous coloring here, and a similar nav template for any other confederation would simply be enormous. I even tried to put together a simplified nav temp in my sandbox by copying and pasting some links, but it still came out too large.

JohnnyPolo24 (talk) 18:28, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I quite like that, although it may be better to use the blue-on-white colouring that Jamen wanted. Regarding size, that doesn't seem to big to me: so long as it's kept collapsed it should be OK. Then again, I was behind possibly the largest template on Wikipedia, so perhaps my opinion isn't worth much... Alzarian16 (talk) 18:44, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Not only does it keep its easy-to-navigate feuture (which the ones above lacks) but it is also shorter than anything above. I am still working on ways to make it shorter.Jamen Somasu (talk) 21:47, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

It fails to address one important issue raised by another user: Navbox. This still doesn't used the Navbox format, which, as has been stated, is what is to be used in football related navigational templates. The version you replaced was simpler, better organized, and does use the Navbox. Digirami (talk) 22:19, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

For one, Navboxes are not a requirement everywhere. If it is, please give me a link. Second, I prefer navbox above anything but the problem is that is way too simplistic and unconventional for universal templates. That is why I took the advice of other sports' pages and simply modified their navbox to fit ours. Right now, I am still trying to convert that information into a genuine Navbox.

Contrary to what many has stated here, every single piece of the template serves a purpose including the flags. Click on the flag and you will be directed to the nation of the country; click on the name and you will be taken to its "Football in x" page; click on the abbreviation and you will be taken the country's football association. Three links...in one box.

The title of the template is the same thing: click on "South American" and you will be taken to the page of the continent of South America; click on "football" and you will be taken to the association football page (to not leave any doubt as to what type of football we are talking about) and CONMEBOL is self-explanatory. Again...three links, one line.

Not only does it compress a great deal of information and pages but it also keeps its simple manuevering and easy-to-navigate feauture which should be the goal of every template, not what type of template it is.

The colors on the different tournaments signified each tournament's unique identity. Although unofficial, the Copa Libertadores has historically been associated with red like the Copa Sudamericana with a blue that I forgot its name. I used the colors for of the Recopa's logo for its template and the template on subject received its colors from the South American Union (which I, alongside others, found appropriate). This is another thing I have adopted from the American sports.

While some sort of order is needed, we can't possibly have everything the same; it's ludicrous. To do that, we must assume that every single thing is the same and it doesn't take a genius to know that is a lie. Jamen Somasu (talk) 23:44, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

User:Thumperward already went through the hassle to convert it to Navbox already, and it came out very well organized (better than it is now). He even tried to incorporate the color (painstakingly I might add) to discover that they were just distracting (go check the history). Every navigational template in this project uses the Navbox (except this now). That's very broad consensus. I'm sure there is a Navbox agreement somewhere in the talkpage archive, but finding it is hard considering the number of specific issues someone might have a a particular navigational template. Its nice that you looked to other sports, but that template still falls under the scope of this project. Do consider that. Considering that there isn't much to consolidate in this template, you can still achieve simple and conventional. You also have to think beyond CONMEBOL. If another confederation tries to use the same format at this template, it's going to be BIG (more like ENORMOUS). The Navbox format implemented by Thumperward, while still being a bit big for other confederations, will be more manageable in edit-ablity and size. Do not create a navigational template design like this and expect it to only be used in one place. What is used in one confederation should be used in all. Digirami (talk) 00:22, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

There is nothing different or unique about CONMEBOL that merits a complete makeover in something as simple as a football template. The colors that you propose are distracting and add absolutely nothing to content as seen in not only this template, but all the CONMEBOL tournament season templates as well. Saying red (or blue for CS) is the unofficial color of Copa Libertadores would be considered Original Research, which has no place here. I will be returning the appropriate, neutral colors to their templates. --MicroX (talk) 01:49, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

When you find that "agreement", let me know. Navboxes are widely used for their simplicity in usage, not their capabilities. In no ways or guidelines is it a requirement, just a preference. BTW, anything I do is distracting so I will not take your word on that.

CONMEBOL is different and it is unique; as a matter of fact, no two confederations are the same. For one, CONMEBOL HAS 10 MEMBERS...that's among the basic of the basics. CONMEBOL is also unique FOR BEING THE MOST SUCCESSFUL CONTINENT despite having only 10 members. That alone merits its unique template as everyone elses. It is just a matter of common sense.

To say that everyone needs to be the same is to assume that everyone IS the same and that is a lie: not two confederations are the same. There is a way to make UEFA's template look easy-to-navigate as CONMEBOL's. However, I could care less about UEFA so I will leave it to you. BTW, here is the red I was talking about. Questions? That is the offical page of the Copa Libertadores. While wiki states that it no one owns pages, it does give special consideration of those who have edited heavily a page. This is dangerously looking like a combination of cabalism, traveling circus and disrupting editors (which I have already reported and is in due process). You two are the most disrupting editors I have seen in wiki; it is amazing how quick you are to block progress...especially when it is made by me. Jamen Somasu (talk) 06:32, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Oh please. CONMEBOL is not special enough to merit it's own template design. You really have to get off this "CONMEBOL exceptionalism horse" and realize that when it comes to organizing the data in nav templates, no one confederation is special. Not CONMEBOL, not UEFA, not CONCACAF. No one. That's why nav templates for national cups and leagues all have the same format across all confederations. In a time where there are massive efforts in the wikiproject to make everything the same from navboxes, infoboxes, league season articles, team season articles, etc. you come along and disrupt that with this CONMEBOL exceptionalism... Dude, get with the program and realize that when we make decisions, it should be applied across the board (unless the exception arises). Template design for a confederations is a broad issue and CONMEBOL is not an exception (nor will it be in the foreseeable future). If this design you have can't be applied well to the larger confederations, it shouldn't be done.

PS, red is the color of the Santander Bank, not the Copa Libertadores. Last year's logo was green. Go to CONMEBOL's webpage for the Libertadores is mostly blue (that's the official page). Seeing as there is no clear color, go with the standard colors. Digirami (talk) 07:33, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

It is not "exceptionalism" (although it could be clasified that way)...it is the fact that it is different from every other confederation as the others are, too. That is a fact that you can't change. For that very reason, it is ludicrous to expect every confederation to be "the same" because standarizing confederations is assuming every confederation is the same...which is not. It is not hard to understand. And once again...navboxes are a preference, not a requirement. I prefer navboxes but they are not sophisticated enough for universal templates. It is not my fault or CONMEBOL's fault that the other confederations don't have 10 members; as a matter of fact, there is a way to make a good template for the other confederations using the same method I have...only I could care less about the other confederations. That is up to you or whoever is interested.

I am interested in transforming the CONMEBOL section into a FP in the future...all you are interested is blocking progress towards it.

BTW, trying to deceive people is not a good thing. The logo last year was a one-time thing only and that was because it was the 50th anniversary since the creation of the competition. Besides last year's edition, no season has ever had its own logo; every year, the same logo for the Copa Libertadores has been used. It is simply a coincidence that red is also the color of the Santander group.Jamen Somasu (talk) 08:54, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, if you are trying to transform the CONMEBOL section into a FP, than you are surely already aware of all the Wikipedia:Manual of Style internals, aren't you? And by the way – your goal is noble, but it cannot be reached without collaborating with others. As the old saying goes "There is no "I" in "TEAM". And now back to real life. Soccer-holic^{I hear voices in my head...} 09:18, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I am fully aware of it. As a matter of fact, that is the guideline I have been using so far. According to the manual, we "should not change an article from one guideline-defined style to another without a substantial reason unrelated to mere choice of style". The article in mention right now is CONMEBOL. We can't standarized world football: it is much too large and all 7 organizations are extremely different from each other to do so. That is why I limited myself to standarizing confederations only. The font used in every template is Arial with the universal color for CONMEBOL pages being the colors of the South American Union (found to be appropriate). ACTUAL tournaments are excempted from this (I made sure with an admin) as it signifies a competition's unique identity. I also used Vischeck to make sure the colors used are unambiguous so even color blind people can tell the difference. Trust me...I got the bases covered. It is simply people like the forementioned that wants to block any progress to the article simply because they dislike me. That is the sort of editors we have in WIKIFootball which says a lot about the project. Jamen Somasu (talk) 09:38, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

You know what...I just noticed something! As a matter of fact, the templates those above have been using and trying to force me to accept are NOT eye friendly towards those who are color blind since the colors used are INVISIBLE to them (Insert the Copa Libertadores page in Vischeck, which contains the template I created and "International Football" one, which contains the same colors as the atrocities above, and look at the bottom of the page; you can clearly see the template I made, which many have agreed, while the "International Football" one is almost a white section of random articles. Jamen Somasu (talk) 09:44, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

You still haven't justified why a CONMEBOL nav template deserves to be different from the rest of them. Because they won more trophies? That doesn't matter when it comes to nav template design. Because it has 10 members? Still doesn't matter. Under that last argument, Africa should have a different template because, at 55 members, it is the largest. But that's pointless, as it is with CONMEBOL. Simply put, there is no good reason for CONMEBOL to have a different template design than the rest. Additionally, Thumperward did modify this template in a way that all the confederations could replicate it, but you had to revert it because of personal preference (or maybe because you think you own it).

We know what you're trying to do. But that doesn't mean you are going to go about it without checks (per say). This is still a community project. It's great that you're being bold, but you have a problem with assuming good faith with other editors. So don't assume that because someone does something that you may not agree, that that action is counter-productive (not agreeing does not necessarily equal wrong or detrimental). I also find your assumption that only your edits are progressive as simply arrogant and conceited. It also goes to show that you know nothing of what I, along with MicroX and other users, have done (and achieved) for articles related to South American football.

So why single out red then? The standard logo has six different colors (if you don't count black). The Copa has no official color (no CONMEBOL tournament has an official color). And yes, to say it has one without a source (or legitimate basis) is original research.

And no, you are wrong. The basic color scheme is readable for the colorblind. Digirami (talk) 10:04, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't assume good faith for people like you taking what I said out of context. I have mentioned above the reasons why I don't use nav templates. If you want to pretend I didn't explain myself, that's you. I have also explained why CONMEBOL is different; again, if you want to pretend I didn't explain myself, that's you. The template thumperward created (as well as many football templates) has a major and serious flaw, along with other smaller ones, that I have pointed out. Once again, if you want to pretend I didn't explain myself, that's you. Assumptions aren't good; you should never assume anything. Unless you are a mind reader (and I have only met one in Los Angeles) you do not know what I am trying to do. As a matter of fact, I have stated above what I wanted to do. One more time...if you want to pretend I didn't explain myself, that's you. But you are not going to wear me out with your "friends". There is a difference with having different opinions and being a disrupting editor and that is what you are: all you do is block progress.

Of course there are many colors! But the type of red Santander and the Copa Libertadores uses is the predominant color which is why I found appropriate to choose. Obviously, some coloring is needed due to the great flaw in the former templates but it can't also be a rainbow. Unless I am color-blind myself, the only thing anyone sees is a nearly-white background with a line in the middle and random articles in the "air". That is, by very definition and literally, an invisible color. Jamen Somasu (talk) 11:13, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Another update! Made it even shorter and I added some defunct Cup competitions of South America. Jamen Somasu (talk) 14:18, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

That looks horrible with all those lines between the different cells. – PeeJay 15:05, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, you made points. And I pointed out the flaws in those points. The navbox style made by has all the data yours does and its displayed neater and simpler.

The color test by VisCheck is just to show if it is readable to the color blind. The basic color is readable to the color blind.

Red is not used predominantly. One website is not proof. Digirami (talk) 18:11, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Another update!