Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/People
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Vital articles/Level/5/People page. |
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Introduction
The purpose of this discussion page is to select 50,000 topics for which Wikipedia should have high-quality articles.
Any article currently on this list may be challenged. The discussion is open to the following rules:
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- Before being closed, a Level 5 proposal must:
- Run for at least 15 days; AND
- Allow at least 7 days after the most recent vote; AND
- Have at least 4 participants.
- For a proposal to be implemented on the Level 5 list:
- It must have over 60% support (see table); AND
- It must have at least 4 support votes !votes.
- For proposed additions from August 2024 onwards, the nominator should list (and possibly link to) at least one potential section in the level 5 vital articles list for the article to be added to. Supporters can also help in this regard.
For reference, the following times apply for today:
- 15 days ago is: 06:02, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
- 7 days ago is: 06:02, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
The following link represent all current Level 5 Vital articles that are classified as people:
Add Allen Klein
An extremely controversial manager. Associated with Sam Cooke 5, The Beatles
3, and The Rolling Stones
4.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:40, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- "one of the most powerful individuals in the music industry during his era" Makkool (talk) 09:44, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- 49p (talk) 02:57, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Norman Granz
Founder of Verve Records and manager of Ella Fitzgerald 4.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 11:10, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- "the most successful impresario in the history of jazz" Makkool (talk) 09:44, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Sam Gilliam
He seems somewhat important. I am not an art scholar.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:57, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:57, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- 3 interwikis suggest that he was not influential. The Blue Rider
11:09, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- per aboveMakkool (talk) 09:44, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
Swap Leopoldo Galtieri for Javier Milei
There's little of note in Galtieri's biography besides the Falklands War, which is already a vital article, so there would be overlap. Milei, the current president of Argentina, got international notice as part of the recent international trend of right-wing leaders. Cambalachero (talk) 16:54, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- As nominator Cambalachero (talk) 16:54, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- We now subject world leaders to the "head of lettuce" test. Revisit this fall when he has served a year. pbp 17:06, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
Move the troubadours, trouvères, and Minnesägner to musicians
I feel like these guys should be listed under musicians. Unlike the Greek lyricists like Sappho, we do have some of the original music that their poems were set to. (Admittedly, it's a small "some"—only about 12% according to the troubadours page—and I don't think the people I'm about to request to be moved are among those whose musical compositions survived.) However, I don't know where exactly they should be placed. I personally lean towards putting them under Western art music (either under Medieval and Renaissance composers, or even a new section like how ragtime or soundtrack composers have their own list) but I'm fine putting them in the songwriters section with Carl Michael Bellman and Stephen Foster.
Here are the people I want to move, plus two more that I'm just throwing in because they're either a troubadour, trouvère, or a Minnesinger:
- Bertran de Born
5 (troubadour)
- Chrétien de Troyes
4 (trovère; personally his chivalric romances firmly keeps him in the writers page)
- Arnaut Daniel
5 (troubadour)
- Wolfram von Eschenbach
5 (Minnesigner; he seems more important as a poet in general)
- Rutebeuf
5 (trovère)
- Tannhäuser
5 (Minnesigner)
- William IX, Duke of Aquitaine
5 (troubadour)
- Under Western art music (Medieval and Renaissance)
- Support (except for Chrétien and von Eschenbach). SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:40, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- Support (except for Chrétien and von Eschenbach). Makkool (talk) 11:05, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- Per nominator, same exceptions. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:43, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Under Western art music (new section)
- Under songwriters
- Keep under poets
- Discuss
- Chretien is Level 4, so moving him should be decided on the Level 4 talk page. Makkool (talk) 11:05, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
Add Anton Pannekoek
Managed to be a major figure both in astronomy and Marxist theory, I think he could go in either section in terms of position,
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 21:24, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- --Thi (talk) 13:40, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:20, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- Support addition to astronomy section. Going by Google Scholar results, out of 11,200 total results, he is referenced in relation to astronomy 7,740 times, while he is referenced in relation to Marxism 1,270 times. His influence on astronomy is a lot greater than his influence on Marxism, what with his ideas on council communism being a lot more niche compared to other tendencies. --Grnrchst (talk) 12:24, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Leochares
Page's pretty bare.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:46, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- @SailorGardevoir, Makkool, and Starship.paint: While I will admit that stubs are typically less vital, there are exceptions to that, and this sculptor is one. He worked on the Mausoleum at Halicarnassus
5, he created the Diana of Versailles (should probably be vital judging by its article), and he made several other popular sculptures. He is therefore vital enough to make the list, and you make a better argument for improving his article than removing it from the list. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:50, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- @QuicoleJR: - I'm not convinced that there is indeed enough information on him out there to make a comprehensive biography rather than a stub. starship.paint (RUN) 14:08, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- There are some decent results on Google Books and Google Scholar for anyone with the time and resources needed. A bad Brittanica article should not be the deciding factor for someone's vitality. Just because we don't have much in our article or Brittanica's doesn't mean he didn't have lasting importance. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:17, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- @QuicoleJR: the onus is on you to prove with links that there is detailed coverage of him, simply asserting is not good enough. starship.paint (RUN) 14:19, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- There are some decent results on Google Books and Google Scholar for anyone with the time and resources needed. A bad Brittanica article should not be the deciding factor for someone's vitality. Just because we don't have much in our article or Brittanica's doesn't mean he didn't have lasting importance. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:17, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- @QuicoleJR: - I'm not convinced that there is indeed enough information on him out there to make a comprehensive biography rather than a stub. starship.paint (RUN) 14:08, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
- Moving discussion here for ease of reading. I'll see if I can find some links in a few minutes. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:21, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Although, I will just say that I think that the person is vital even without finding extra sources for expanding the article. He makes valid claims to vitality, and that should be enough. I don't see how article size factors in to it, and there are plenty of better targets for removal. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:23, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- It is my personal opinion that since the vital article project is intended to establish important articles that should be improved, if there are articles on a person/object that cannot be improved to a high quality because there is simply not enough information about the person/object out there, then we should not list them as vital. You would probably disagree. starship.paint (RUN) 15:39, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- I think your opinion is valid. I am willing to retract my Oppose for now, since I have other things I care more about. However, I will put this on my to-do list and will propose adding it back to the list if I am able to destub it. Does this work for you? QuicoleJR (talk) 15:52, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- @QuicoleJR: - what I would be looking for is for someone, anyone to prove that there's enough information out there to satisfy FA requirements (it does not require that the article be updated). starship.paint (RUN) 16:11, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- I think your opinion is valid. I am willing to retract my Oppose for now, since I have other things I care more about. However, I will put this on my to-do list and will propose adding it back to the list if I am able to destub it. Does this work for you? QuicoleJR (talk) 15:52, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- It is my personal opinion that since the vital article project is intended to establish important articles that should be improved, if there are articles on a person/object that cannot be improved to a high quality because there is simply not enough information about the person/object out there, then we should not list them as vital. You would probably disagree. starship.paint (RUN) 15:39, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- Although, I will just say that I think that the person is vital even without finding extra sources for expanding the article. He makes valid claims to vitality, and that should be enough. I don't see how article size factors in to it, and there are plenty of better targets for removal. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:23, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
Add Smokey Robinson
For once, I’m going to make an addition proposal. We have The Miracles 5 on here, but this is definitely a case of a member being vital in their own right. Not only was he the main songwriter and producer for the group (who were called Smokey Robinson and the Miracles from 1965 to 1972), he was also the main songwriter and producer for The Temptations
5, the vice president of Motown, and he received his Hollywood Walk of Fame
5 star and Rock and Roll Hall of Fame
5 induction before the rest of the group.
- Support
- Oppose
- Discuss
Move Mikael Agricola
5 to linguists
He is more a vital to the encyclopedia as the founder of Finnish literary language, than as one of many Protestant reformators in Kingdom of Sweden. Makkool (talk) 18:47, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- As nom. Makkool (talk) 18:47, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:23, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 16:57, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Five politicians from the Maldives?
The Maldives are a teeny-tiny country, isn't five leader a bit much? Granted, some served as Monarch, president or Prime Minister for quite awhile, but still, FIVE? pbp 21:47, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
Remove Abdul Majeed Didi
Stub article with only six interwikis pbp 21:47, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 21:47, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:24, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 07:10, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Per Kevinishere15. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:20, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
"Didi is recognized a reformer and has been described as 'the father of the modern Maldives' ". Kevinishere15 (talk) 00:28, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
Remove Mohamed Amin Didi
Ruled a tiny country for less than a year
- Support
- pbp 21:47, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:24, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- Does not seem important enough. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:50, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
- Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Steve Albini
Well-known producer known for producing albums from Pixies (band) 5, Fugazi
5, Nirvana (band)
5, PJ Harvey
5, etc. He recently passed away (a couple hours from this message) but I was surprised to know he wasn't on this list yet despite his contributions. 49p (talk) 19:35, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- 49p (talk) 19:37, 8 May 2024 (UTC), per nom
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:25, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Falls a little short in my opinion.Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:28, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
- He is not notable enough as a musician and I am not sure where the bar is for producers. What producers do we have listed?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:52, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
- We have "Music producers, songwriters and businesspeople." This list is hard to compare because most of these people are known to be executives, rather than being known as producers/engineers.
- The ones who are close to Albini that we have are Alan Parsons
5 who was "assistant engineer" on Abbey Road and main engineer for The Dark Side of the Moon and known for performing as the Alan Parsons Project. Trevor Horn
5 is a producer known for his work in Yes (band) and is called "the man who invented the eighties" per his page. Other producers we have are King Tubby
5, Quincy Jones
5, and Rick Rubin
5 which are all much similar (known for working with well-known artists, except with the case of Tubby where he's more known for popularizing dub music)
- So I think the bar is either producing well known albums or making a impact on a known genre. I say given Albini's work in albums like Surfer Rosa, In Utero, Pod (The Breeders album), and Rid of Me he seems to fit. A fair argument you can make to not include Albini is most of these artists worked with "extremely" well known artists (Parsons worked with The Beatles and Pink Floyd, which is probably like a tier down from bands like The Pixies or Nirvana (band).) 49p (talk) 00:28, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- Nirvana's final album is pretty big, but I am on the fence.-~~
English football adjustments
Swap Gary Lineker
5 for Jimmy Greaves
Greaves is the top scorer in the history of English top-tier football, he was apart of England's 66' FIFA World Cup triumph and he his often regarded as one of (if not the best) English domestic player during the 20th Century. Whilst Lineker's career is outstanding, it is a shoulder below that of Greaves' legacy; and if not Greaves, many more modern careers have since surpassed Lineker's. It could be argued that Harry Kane (England's top scorer), Manual Neuer (his generation's greatest keeper), Modrić /Benzema /Iniesta /Kaka or Suárez, all deserve places ahead of Lineker, and the list goes on... Idiosincrático (talk) 22:04, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- As nominator Idiosincrático (talk) 22:04, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:16, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Swap Malcolm Allison for Herbert Chapman
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Chapman was one of the most revolutionary English managers during the early 20th century and I was surprised he wasn't already included. He is mostly responsible in England for floodlights at football matches, shirt numbers, physiotherapists in player management and several other traditions and practices. His tenure at both Huddersfield and Arsenal is regarded as one of the finest periods in the history of each club. Chapman's Arsenal team from the early 1930s is still revered as one of the greatest in English football history. Whereas for Allison, I really couldn't tell you much about him, mostly because I simply don't know him; but it is easy to see how Chapman's legacy as a manager dwarfs that of Allisons. Idiosincrático (talk) 07:53, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- As nominator Idiosincrático (talk) 07:53, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:16, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. Phikia (talk) 04:42, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Hassan al-Banna
Founder of the Muslim Brotherhood 5. His ideas shaped the modern discourse on the intersection of Islam and politics.
- Support
- As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 15:34, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:26, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 03:37, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Move Meir Kahane
Usually I would just do a bold move, but I have no idea where to put him. All I know is I don't feel like his current position (under religious figures) is the best place to put him. Yes, his Zionism was on the religious side and he was an ordained rabbi, but his beliefs at its very core was ultranationalist. Now I personally am in favor of putting him under rebels, but he was elected, and we have been moving those type of guys to politicians. I also get the rationale of placing him under terrorists.
- To politicians
- To rebels
- To terrorists
- Assuming we even keep terrorists as a subsection (which is inherently controversial and contested), as he is mentioned within the first paragraph alone as having been convicted on terrorism charges, and has an entire section entitled "terrorism and convictions". His term in the Knesset was a pretty small part of his overall career and during that time he arguably lacked institutional influence that others would normally have as he was boycotted by all other members. Iostn (talk) 21:42, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- Keep under religious figures
- Discuss
Add Talha ibn 'Ubayd Allah and Sa'id ibn Zayd
To make up for my recent requests, let me advocate for the addition of these guys. There are the only people who were a part of the ten to whom Paradise was promised who are not on here. In comparison (which is admittedly imperfect since the whole ten list is strictly a Sunni thing), we have all twelve Apostles on here, plus Matthais.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:39, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- Per nom. Makkool (talk) 15:42, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:28, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Move Ch'oe Ch'i-wŏn
Although we got a lot of reformers on here, their activities are at least tied to their religion. I don't think that's the cause for Ch'oe, especially since during the time he was active, he was a Confucianist, not a Buddhist. I prefer moving him to the politicians page, but since he was apparently a philosopher, I'll leave that option out as well. (We do have people in that page who were government officials.)
- To politicians
- To philosophers
- Keep
- Discuss
Again, making up for my recent proposals. Considering that the Nation of Islam has its own separate subsection for their figures, we should probably have its founder.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:48, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
- Seems pretty important. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:13, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
- Definitely important as Louis Farrakhan, or Elijah Muhammad. 49p (talk) 16:35, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
- Per nom. Makkool (talk) 15:42, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Baba Farid
Another person to make up for my recent proposals, although he seems to be just as important as a literature figure as he is a religious one, so I'll throw in that option as well. Seems pretty important amongst not just the Muslim population of Punjab, but for Punjabis in general.
- Support (under Sufism)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:30, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
- Per nom. Makkool (talk) 15:42, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support (under poets)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Starhawk
An influential proponent on Neo-paganism in the public eye. List under Religious figures.
- Support
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
Swap Meralda Warren
5 with Margaret Mahy
Meralda Warren is a local writer from a tiny British Overseas Territory. Her Wikipedia biography tells more about other things she has done than her writing career. On the other hand, Margaret Mahy was an acclaimed children's author from New Zealand with major-award-winning books. Currently we don't list any children's authors from NZ.
- Support
- As nom. Makkool (talk) 15:42, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- Support addition per nom. She has won several major awards and written over 100 books. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:43, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Oppose removal Her having more importance than just being an author is a point towards keeping, not a reason to remove. Her article does a pretty good job of showing importance, and there are plenty of authors from the U.S. and UK who have nothing going for them besides writing a few somewhat popular books that we can remove first to meet the quota. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:43, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- Neutral
- Discuss
Moving entries from "rebels" to "terrorists"
"Terrorists" is always going to be controversial as a subsection, but as long as its there, it makes sense to list people there if they are described as "terrorist" by their own articles.
I think it used to suffer as a section when there was a subsection quota, which encouraged filling it in quite an arbitrary way to reach a certain number of articles, while others were listed in different places regardless of wherever it made much sense.
For this reason I will propose moving the following articles currently listed with "rebels, revolutionaries and activists":
- Carlos the Jackal
5 - described as committing "terrorist bombings" in the first sentence alone, and then directlty afterwards described as "one of the most notorious political terrorists of his era".
- Ayman al-Zawahiri
5 - lede doesn't actually use the word "terrorist", but it still remains strewn throughout the rest of the article, and as he was the second leader of Al-Qaeda
5, it doesn't make much sense to separate him from Osama bin Laden
4 listing-wise.
- Jihadi John
5 - "A group of his hostages nicknamed him "John" since he was part of a four-person terrorist cell"
- Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
5 - "ran a terrorist training camp in Afghanistan"
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 18:55, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:50, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:16, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Related proposal: Move Dylann Roof
5 from "murder" to "terrorism"
I would normally do myself but again, "terrorism" in inherently controversial as a label and ill-defined.
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 18:55, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:50, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Support, but I am not sure he should be listed in the first place. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:30, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Remove outright
- Discuss
Swap: Remove Jamshid bin Abdullah of Zanzibar, add Ali Hassan Mwinyi and Samia Suluhu Hassan
At the present time, Zanzibar has two articles, including Jamshid, who fails the lettuce test of less than a year in office. Its successor nation, Tanzania, has sixty million people but only one article. Mwinyi served as president for 10 years and enacted a series of post-Nyerere reforms. Hassan is the country's first female president. Mwinyi and Hassan have significantly more interwikis than Jamshid. pbp 22:23, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 22:23, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:31, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Leung Chun-ying
As with Tu above, Hong Kong is bloated with six post-1945 leaders, including five post-1997 leaders. Of the leaders of Hong Kong, he seems the least vital. pbp 22:57, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- Oppose
- Don't really see how he's the least vital, he seems to mark an important milestone re: the erosion of Hong Kong's autonomy.
- Discussion
Massive shift of politicians from early modern to post-classical without consensus
It used to be the split between post-classical and early modern was somewhere between 1400 and 1453. Now it's 1500, meaning quite a few Renaissance figures are listed in post-classical when ANY historian worth his salt would have them in early modern. Dozens, perhaps over 100 figures were moved, and I'm not only concerned about the WP:RANDY aspect of this, I'm also concerned that moving that many figures should have only been done with a consensus. pbp 17:21, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Who did it? The Blue Rider
20:06, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
It used to be the split between post-classical and early modern was somewhere between 1400 and 1453.
- based on what? This should have been noted somewhere on the vital list page. Thing is, Post-classical history says until 1500 CE, and early modern period says it starts about 1500. So what should be the year for the split? starship.paint (RUN) 14:46, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you. If the leaders/politicians page explicitly had a different timeline structure, then by all means revert it. However, so long as we have a generic four period structure as we do for most of the other pages (Ancient, Post-classical, Early modern, and Late modern), we need to stick with what our own articles on those periods state are the years they lasted. And if anyone has an issue with this, please go to this discussion, because I do think we need a clear answer for this. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:10, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
Add Hun Manet
Cambodia's current leader, I know he hasn't served a full year yet but him being the first new leader in 37 years makes him vital IMO. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- I don't really see why we are priotizing him over other new leaders especially when his accesion doesn't seem to herald any significant change in Cambodia. Iostn (talk) 16:53, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Unlikely to be seen as vital in 20 years' time. J947 ‡ edits 05:39, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
Murderer clean-up
Before subsection quotas were abolished there was a supported proposal to reduce the number of spaces under "Murder, serial killing, mass murder" in favour of those responsible for more societally impactful crimes (such as assassination, crimes against humanity and terrorism). While this was rendered moot by the removal of quotas, I still think the murder section needs to be cleaned up as it has quite a big US bias and also many of the spree killers also have the sprees they were responsible for listed under history, which makes a better case for cleaning up spaces here.
Remove Gameel Al-Batouti
5
Aside from anything else, it doesn't even seem clear, nor is there any way to conclusively determine, whether he deliberately caused deaths or not. I suppose EgyptAir Flight 990 could be listed but I'm not sure how much it stands out compared to other plane crashes.
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 05:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:53, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
- Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Martin Bryant
5
Port Arthur massacre (Australia) 5 is already listed.
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 05:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:32, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Swap Seung-Hui Cho
5 for Virginia Tech shooting
Based on the principle of the vent itself being more important than the person who is solely notable because of it.
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 05:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:32, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Belle Gunness
5
Not among the most well-known serial killers. The article does say that "some sources speculate her involvement in as many as 40 murders making her one of the most prolific female serial killers in history", but that is well, speculative.
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 05:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:02, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Richard Hauptmann
5
Lindbergh kidnapping 5 is already listed, and he is not known to have been responsible for any other murders.
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 05:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:02, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Richard Hickock
5 and Perry Edward Smith
5
These two are seemingly only listed for their involvement in a murder case which inspired the writing of In Cold Blood 5, which was influential on the True crime
5 genre. The book is already listed and their actual crime doesn't seem to stand out on a broader level.
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 05:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Per nom Mathwriter2718 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 12:37, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:02, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Swap Andrew Kehoe
5 for Bath School disaster
Same rationale as Seung-Hui Cho.
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 05:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:02, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Marc Lépine
5
École Polytechnique massacre 5 is already listed.
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 05:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:02, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Earle Nelson
5
"considered the first known serial sex murderer of the twentieth century". Other than that doesn't really seem to stand out compared to other serial killers.
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 05:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:02, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Stephen Paddock
2017 Las Vegas shooting is already listed.
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 05:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:02, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Jane Toppan
Doesn't stand out compared to other serial killers.
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 05:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support Mathwriter2718 (talk) 12:39, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:02, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
One of the most prolific serial killers in history, and is second only to Luis Garavito 5 on List of serial killers by number of victims.
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Per nom Mathwriter2718 (talk) 12:42, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:02, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Per his cultural influence in Brazil, and this list needs less US bias. Also inspired the protagonist of Dexter (TV series) 5.
- Support
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Howard Unruh
5
Initially didn't propose this as I was under the impression it was relatively well-remembered, but the low number of interwikis and pageviews compared to many of the others here indicates otherwise.
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:46, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Not that important Mathwriter2718 (talk) 12:40, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:02, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Or just move it to history. I hate to remove an article based on how it fits into this project, but this one just sticks out like a sore thumb being on the people pages. Even the articles based on a group of people don't really resemble what is essentially a statistic page.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:54, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 15:03, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- Seems way too specific. 49p (talk) 06:09, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:03, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Nehru–Gandhi family and/or remove Kennedy family
The former is clearly more vital than the latter, IMO. A removal may be in order given how both are just glorified lists at the minute, but I reckon more could be written of them. J947 ‡ edits 04:11, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- Support both
- Support addition; oppose removal
- Tentatively, as nom. J947 ‡ edits 04:11, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- pbp 12:46, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:19, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 16:57, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:11, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- Support removal; oppose addition
- Oppose both
- Discussion
Remove Woo Bum-kon incident
5
Article was moved from Woo Bum-kon and rescoped to be event-based and not a biography. It is now no longer fit for its section which is of criminal biographies. PARAKANYAA (talk) 01:45, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discussion
- This just brings up the question: does it really make much difference how the article is framed, if its still focused solely through the lens of its perpertrator (and I'm not sure if that page should've been even moved to start with, if reliable sources are just naming the events strictly through that lens anyway)? For example, if we list a murder case of someone who is only known for being the victim of that particularly murder case, should that be under the victims section? Iostn (talk) 16:53, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
Add Georgette Heyer
My previous removal nominations, as well as the ones still to come, should make enough room to add this woman. She has had a major impact on the Romance novel 4 genre, having a major role in popularizing the historical romance subgenre and creating a new subgenre of that. 40 of her books currently have their own articles. 24 interwikis, rated Top-Importance by WikiProject Romance and WikiProject Women writers.
- Support
- As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:04, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 16:53, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:12, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
Add Budai
AKA The Laughing Buddha. Favorite subject for East Asian artists and the reason why a lot of Westerners picture the founder of Buddhism as a fat Chinese man. (Nominating him here since the general consensus appears to be that he was originally an actual Chinese monk who later got deified.)
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:38, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 08:36, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 16:53, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 08:00, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Unknown individual known for movie rips. Extremely popular during the era, but I feel like there are other groups and people known for piracy that aren't included. We don't include Razor 1911 which has been software cracking since 1985 compared to aXXo whose career is from 2005 to 2009.
- Support
- per nom. I would support a swap for Razor 1911 if that gets enough votes. 49p (talk) 05:54, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- per above. starship.paint (RUN) 08:00, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- pbp 13:51, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:20, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Popular for their cyberattacks and prescene in the 2010s. Quite literally listed as "100 most influential people" per Time magazine in 2012 according to the article. I don't think this one needs much explaining, considering we also include LulzSec 5.
- Support
- 49p (talk) 06:03, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- Important enough, if needed we could swap with Lulzsec. Kevinishere15 (talk) 06:19, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- Plenty of real-world influence.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 07:29, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- per above. starship.paint (RUN) 08:00, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 16:57, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 00:13, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Per nom Mathwriter2718 (talk) 12:45, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
I WILL say this, though: making the TIME 100 just once isn't a good criteria for inclusion. We don't even have all the TIME People of the Year. pbp 13:53, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- I made this late at night haha. I was trying to say that the group itself has undoubtedly enough influence in the real world. not just because it's specifically in "time 100" 49p (talk) 14:54, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- We likely will never have the 2006 Time Person of the Year :) Aurangzebra (talk) 00:13, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
Remove Caroline Lee Hentz
5
Only claim to vitality is writing a somewhat famous anti-Tom novel. She did not start the short-lived anti-Tom movement and Anti-Tom literature is not listed as vital. Only 6 interwikis.
- Support
- As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:54, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 15:51, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:19, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:13, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
Remove Kevin Poulsen
5
Not actually that important as a hacker (he is currently listed under "computer crimes") and his subsequent journalism career which he is actually more notable for itself doesn't seem to be enough to make the cut (he is simply a "contributing editor", and has been involved a few major/majorish cases mentioned but that's it)
- Support
- Nom Iostn (talk) 16:59, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 15:51, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:33, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add John Barrowman or swap with Mike Farrell
5
Barrowman is a quite significant scottish actor and being LGBTQ he would help diversify the list. I offer a swap given that the list of entertainers is over the quota. I suggest Farrell as Barrowman has 12 more interwikis than him and Farrell only really has one significant role being MASH. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 06:26, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- As nominator. I also vote for the swap. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 06:26, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- Support swap Iostn (talk) 11:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Per Brittanica, this 9th century Persian calligrapher invented naskh (script), tawqi and thuluth, and was thrice vizier of the Abbasid Caliphate. starship.paint (RUN) 07:00, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Islam Makhachev
5
Good fighter but way too early to tell if he will be vital. He is only 32. Nothing on his article suggests any lasting vitality. He is overshadowed in almost every way by his trainer Khabib Nurmagomedov 5. Aurangzebra (talk) 00:42, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- as nom. Aurangzebra (talk) 00:42, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. Recentism. starship.paint (RUN) 01:46, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Too many MMA personalities pbp 07:00, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- In my opinion, he will become vital in a couple years. Just not now. 49p (talk) 07:12, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
- I agree. Aurangzebra (talk) 02:26, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Discussion - standard for a V5 actor?
If I may suggest, we can establish a standard for V5 actors by naming actors that do meet this level of vitality, and comparing the rest of the entries on the list to this group. If the other entries are not on this level, they should be removed. I have listed 10 relatively modern English-speaking actors below, of various nationalities. How does everyone feel about this list? Do these 10 set a good enough standard? Is there any one of these 10 that are not on the others' level?
- Keanu Reeves
5
- Nicolas Cage
5
- Tom Cruise
5
- Leonardo DiCaprio
5
- Robert Downey Jr.
5
- Brad Pitt
5
- Arnold Schwarzenegger
5
- Daniel Day-Lewis
5
- Gary Oldman
5
- Hugh Jackman
5
starship.paint (RUN) 01:52, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Iostn, OlifanofmrTennant, Makkool, Tabu Makiadi, and Aurangzebra: - who participated in an actors' discussion above. starship.paint (RUN) 01:54, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Starship.paint: I would swap Downey with someone else maybe George Clooney
5. I I think removals should happen and a standered set. This seems to be exclusively film actors and not stage or television. For stage Derek Jacobi
5 and maybe Michael Hordern
5?
- I have made a list of TV actors
- I think these 10 fit. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 05:32, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- @OlifanofmrTennant: - I am not as familiar about TV or stage actors. I listed Downey as due to him possibly being the highest-grossing lead actor of all time. Though, Clooney is fine as well. Not sure about Takei though, surely he is outshined by Leonard Nimoy
5 or William Shatner
5? starship.paint (RUN) 07:38, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Starship.paint: Oh I didn't know the about Downey. I would be willing to swap Takei out for Nimoy or Shatner Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 15:25, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- @OlifanofmrTennant: - I am not as familiar about TV or stage actors. I listed Downey as due to him possibly being the highest-grossing lead actor of all time. Though, Clooney is fine as well. Not sure about Takei though, surely he is outshined by Leonard Nimoy
- @Starship.paint I generally like this list. However, I think I would remove Keanu Reeves and Arnold Schwarzenegger. I think the 'golden' standard list should include actors who are both popular in the mainstream and have won a substantial amount of acting awards over their career. Reeves and Schwarzenegger achieve the first criteria but not the second. I would possibly consider replacing them with Denzel Washington
5 or Samuel L. Jackson
5 (in fact, I would take both of them on this list over most of the current inclusions). Aurangzebra (talk) 02:49, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- Agree on Reeves and Schwarzenegger. Schwarzenegger has more prestigious awards as an bodybuilder than as an actor. So we could list him in athletes like Jet Li for martial arts. Reeves has been in popular movies, but he might not reach the acting acclaim criteria. Makkool (talk) 11:39, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'd say Schwarzenegger is still much more culturally influential as an actor than as a bodybuilder. A limitation of awards, no single proxy for vitality is infallible.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 12:37, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Aurangzebra, Makkool, LaukkuTheGreit, and OlifanofmrTennant: - well, as a sidestep of an acting award, Schwarzenegger won an election to become Governor of California in 2003, having never held public office before, and having retired from bodybuilding in 1980. What led him to win is left as an exercise for the reader. starship.paint (RUN) 12:59, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- But if we are looking for a gold standard to compare our actors to, wouldn't it not make sense to include him then? How would he compare him to other actors if we have to factor in his political career? Aurangzebra (talk) 16:24, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Aurangzebra, Makkool, LaukkuTheGreit, and OlifanofmrTennant: - well, as a sidestep of an acting award, Schwarzenegger won an election to become Governor of California in 2003, having never held public office before, and having retired from bodybuilding in 1980. What led him to win is left as an exercise for the reader. starship.paint (RUN) 12:59, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'd say Schwarzenegger is still much more culturally influential as an actor than as a bodybuilder. A limitation of awards, no single proxy for vitality is infallible.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 12:37, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- Agree on Reeves and Schwarzenegger. Schwarzenegger has more prestigious awards as an bodybuilder than as an actor. So we could list him in athletes like Jet Li for martial arts. Reeves has been in popular movies, but he might not reach the acting acclaim criteria. Makkool (talk) 11:39, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Starship.paint: I would swap Downey with someone else maybe George Clooney
I'd feel better about these lists if the WHY accompanied the WHO. (Related, since I see William Hartnell and David Tennant listed, is playing Doctor Who a mark of VA5?) pbp 02:53, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- Tennant has been pretty prolific outside of Doctor Who. I wasn’t completely sure for the tenth entry that’s why I listed two. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 02:56, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- And another question: is the "standard" the MOST VITAL that didn't make VA4, or is it the MEDIAN vitality of VA5-not-VA4? 02:58, 31 May 2024 (UTC) pbp 02:58, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Purplebackpack89:, I'll explain my rational, I tried to create a diverse list.
- Neil Patrick Harris was picked for How I Met Your Mother
5 as well as other shows, he has received serveral awards. He is openly gay and named one of times 100 Most Influential People in 2010.
- Andy Griffith for the The Andy Griffith Show
5, he's in the Television Hall of Fame, a portion of US Highway 52 is dedicated to him.
- Bryan Cranston, Malcolm in the Middle]] and Breaking Bad
5 he's receved extensive awards. In recent years he's done a lot of broadway acting,
- Mr. T for The A-Team and his wrestling career, he had major role in Rocky 3. Possibly not as strong as the other entries.
- William Hartnell for Doctor Who
4 and his other pretty long career.
- George Takei for Star Trek
4. Takei is also a LGBT rights advicat being openly gay.
- Neil Patrick Harris was picked for How I Met Your Mother
- I can get too the others shortly would anyone like to propose any changes? Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 04:11, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Purplebackpack89: - for my film actors list, my hope is that it would be the median of V5. A 'just below V4' list would not be useful. starship.paint (RUN) 12:51, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- Let me consider this: the AFI list, the Kennedy Center Honors, and Academy Awards. Many of the people on the AFI list are VA4 and the ones that aren't are near the Top of VA5. Same deal with KCH. Academy Awards is kind of a mixed bag, because there doesn't seem to be a great correlation between winning an Academy Award in a particular year and being considered one of the greatest ever. That being said, probably the MEDIAN or average of a VA5-not-VA4 is one Academy Award. Daniel Day-Lewis has three lead actor awards, so I think he's ABOVE the median VA5-not-VA4 actor. pbp* 16:48, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- It would sound better to me to compare to lists by outside experts just as these, rather than to make a top ten yardstick ourselves. Makkool (talk) 18:02, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
- Let me consider this: the AFI list, the Kennedy Center Honors, and Academy Awards. Many of the people on the AFI list are VA4 and the ones that aren't are near the Top of VA5. Same deal with KCH. Academy Awards is kind of a mixed bag, because there doesn't seem to be a great correlation between winning an Academy Award in a particular year and being considered one of the greatest ever. That being said, probably the MEDIAN or average of a VA5-not-VA4 is one Academy Award. Daniel Day-Lewis has three lead actor awards, so I think he's ABOVE the median VA5-not-VA4 actor. pbp* 16:48, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
The right size?
I figure probably the right number of actors and actresses is somewhere between 300 and 400. So we have at least twice the actors and actresses as we should pbp 19:53, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Purplebackpack89: It should presumably be split 50/50. 488 actors and 465 actresses. Both need to be cut by around half. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 01:16, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- Not sure if it should be 50-50. At least, when I looked at contemporary actresses, I don't see them being as vital as the contemporary actors. I think actors have more career longevity? Anyway, drastic cuts are needed, and anyone like Jared Leto absolutely need to go. starship.paint (RUN) 15:26, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- 300 would be 5 times the amount of actors and actresses in V4, which should be just the right amount. Makkool (talk) 18:02, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
Remove Abdellatief Abouheif
5, Olga Brusnikina
5, and Anastasia Davydova
5
All three are stubs. Abouheif's Arabic article is a little bit longer, but he only has five interwikis. In contrast, while Brusnikina and Davydova both have at least twenty interwikis, they are all pretty stubby as much as their English article, including the Russian versions. (Roland Matthes 5 is also a stub, but he is a lot closer comparatively to start status, and he's considered the greatest backstroke swimmer of all time; for that, I'm not nominating him.)
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 07:25, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Hu Ronghua
5
Stub and only has 7 interwikis.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 07:36, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Stub (as in three sentences) on here and on Swedish Wikipedia.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 07:39, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
- Not every Olympic gold medalist is vital. Ping me if anything more substantial is found. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:08, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 11:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Branimir of Croatia to politicians
Father of medieval Croatia
- Support
Remove Philip Farkas
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Only five interwikis and no RYM page.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:07, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:25, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove The Great Lester
5
Stub. Only has three interwikis.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:12, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:25, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Guo Qiru
5, Hou Baolin
5, and Katsura Bunshi VI
5
I get the desire to be diverse, and the native versions of Hou's and especially Katsura's articles are in much better shape, but they each only have two to three interwikis.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:25, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:27, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Matt Mattox
5
Stub. Only has seven interwikis.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:25, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Hard to convince myself he is more notable than Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, which isn't a VA. Mathwriter2718 (talk) 12:50, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Johann Christian Fischer
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Do we really need an oboe player?
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:36, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:25, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- I think we do to be honest, and he's not crazy obscure. J947 ‡ edits 05:37, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
- I think it seems very reasonable to have an oboe player, though I have no opinion on whether it should be this one. Mathwriter2718 (talk) 12:52, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
Remove some ballet dancers
I'm seeing a lot of stub-level ballet dancers with single digits interwikis.
Remove Anneli Alhanko
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Stub. Swedish article is a bit better, but that's only one out of eight interwikis.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:02, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- pbp 16:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Marie Allard
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Stub. French article is not much better.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:10, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- pbp 16:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
I just discovered that there is already a discussion for her removal. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:46, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
Remove Claude Balon
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Same as above. (Also only have 6 interwikis.)
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 07:58, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- pbp 16:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Fabritio Caroso
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Consists of only three paragraphs. Italian version is very marginally better, with one additional (single sentence) paragraph and four stanza length quote.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:17, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- pbp 16:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Fanny Cerrito
5
Same thing. Italian version is also very marginally better, this time with five additional paragraphs, although the average amount of sentences for all the paragraphs is about two to three.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:28, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- pbp 16:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 08:05, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Antonio Cornazzano
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Just four paragraphs. He seems more important as a writer anyway, as evidenced by the fact that his Italian article doesn't even mention his career as a dancer.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 09:09, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- pbp 16:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Natalia Dudinskaya
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Just three paragraphs. Russian article is slightly longer, but every paragraph is pretty short.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:57, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- pbp 16:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 08:58, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Louis Dupré (dancer)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Stub and six interwikis.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:35, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- pbp 16:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 08:58, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Violetta Elvin
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Only has 5 interwikis and dear god is this article bare.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:46, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- pbp 16:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 08:58, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Pavel Gerdt
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Just three paragraphs. Russian article (which is just one out of nine interwikis) mostly consists of lists.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 09:10, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- pbp 16:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 08:58, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Geneviève Gosselin
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Four paragraphs. Three interwikis.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:57, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- pbp 16:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 08:58, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Marie Guy-Stéphan
5
Only seven interwikis.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:52, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 08:58, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:40, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove De Lafontaine
5
I understand the need for having the first female professional ballet dancer, but look at her article. Just two paragraphs and nine interwikis. We don't even know her first name.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:56, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 07:02, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:40, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Pauline Leroux
5
Four paragraphs. Three interwikis.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:34, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 07:02, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:40, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Liu Qingtang
5 and Xue Jinghua
5
We don't even have the Red Detachment of Women, so why do we have their stars? They only have one and two interwikis respectively.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:52, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom (support Liu, will review Xue another time) starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- support both Makkool (talk) 07:02, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:40, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
- @User:Starship.paint: Just updated this to include Xue Jinghua. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:19, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
Remove Russell Maliphant
5
I think that note right there says it all about its quality. Also he only has three interwikis.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:51, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 07:02, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:40, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Guglielmo Ebreo da Pesaro
5
Only has eight interwikis.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:43, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 07:02, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:40, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Domenico da Piacenza
5
Just four paragraphs (which is one paragraph longer than the Italian version) and eight interwikis.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:27, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 07:02, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 08:05, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:40, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Françoise Prévost
5
Just four paragraphs (which is one paragraph longer than the Italian version) and nine interwikis.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:05, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 07:02, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 08:05, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:40, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Armand Vestris
5 and Auguste Vestris
5
I got to be honest, I'm not seeing anything that indicates that any of the Vestris are vital, including Gaétan Vestris, who has a healthy 23 interwikis. For now though, I'm just going to nominate Armand and Auguste, who only have 3 and 11 interwikis respectively.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 08:41, 15 June 2024 (UTC)~
- Makkool (talk) 07:02, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 08:05, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:40, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Edward Villella
5
Only four interwikis.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:43, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 07:02, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 08:05, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:40, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
This is the guy who Sathya Sai Baba 5 claims to be a reincarnation of. Seems like he was a very popular religious figure in India for both Hindus and Muslims (although note that it's not clear what religion he actually belonged to), his article is B-tier, he got 35 interwikis, and he's rated high-importance in a lot of WikiProjects.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:11, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 08:58, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 11:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:35, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Josef Gusikov
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
A while back, I moved the klezmer musicians from the non-European art music section to the popular music section. (I don't know why that genre got placed there either; I have never heard anyone refer klezmer as a form of art music.) This has resulted in Gusikov here being the only person listed under popular musicians to predate recorded music. By a couple of decades actually. Since he only has nine interwikis, I suggest we just remove him.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:21, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 11:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Rock Steady Crew
5 and Crazy Legs (dancer)
5
I hate to do this, because I have heard people consider the Rock Steady Crew and Crazy Legs in particular as being very important to the development of breakdancing. But the Rock Steady Crew is in piss poor shape and only has eight interwikis, while Crazy Legs (whose article is at least decent) only has four.
- Support
- Reluctantly. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:34, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
- Will there be someone to represent breakdance or hip hop dance, if we remove them? Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
British, Canadian and Australian television hosts removals
Above, I made nominations to address U.S. television host bloat but British, Canadian and Australian television host bloat is also pretty bad.
Remove Rove McManus
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Only six interwikis. We don't need 14 Australasian TV personalities. pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Kevin O'Leary
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Only seven languages. Mostly known as a businessman who appeared on an ensemble show. pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove George Stroumboulopoulos
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Only eight interwikis. Not even on the level of Gene Rayburn, which we removed. pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Clive Anderson
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The franchise Whose Line Is It Anyway? is possibly notable but I don't think Clive Anderson is. Only nine interwikis. pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Melvyn Bragg
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Only 10 interwikis. pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Gay Byrne
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hosted a show for a long time but it's far from the most notable of shows. Only seven interwikis. pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- He might be praised as being the most important television personality in Ireland, but at the end of the day he only has seven interwikis. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:50, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- "In 2010, The Irish Times said Byrne was "unquestionably the most influential radio and television man in the history of the Irish State"" - if we're trying to make TV hosts less US biased, then removing some of the most important figures from other countries seems antithetical to that. Iostn (talk) 11:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- per above Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- Discussion
Remove Judith Chalmers
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Only four interwikis. pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Bill Grundy
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Stub with only four interwikis. The Sex Pistols might be VA5 but he isn't. pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Only really notable for the Sex Pistols connection. Iostn (talk) 11:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Russell Harty
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Just a single interwiki link and lede doesn't even mention any notable shows he hosted. pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 11:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Charles Ingram
We already have John Carpenter from Who Wants to be A Millionaire pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support removal, or possibly move to criminals. Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- We don't need a gameshow contestant. J947 ‡ edits 05:34, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- per above. starship.paint (RUN) 06:53, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Ingram has both more pageviews and interwikis than John Carpenter (game show contestant) Iostn (talk) 11:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- But he shouldn't be listed here with game show hosts. Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- I am open to removing Carpenter as well. pbp 16:58, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, we can remove Carpenter too. starship.paint (RUN) 06:53, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- Discussion
Remove Pat Kenny
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Only six interwikis. pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Jeremy Kyle
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Only eight interwikis. pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove John McCririck
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Only three interwikis. pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove John Noakes
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Only five interwikis. pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Des O'Connor
- Support
- pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- Just nine interwikis. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- per SailorGardevoir. starship.paint (RUN) 06:53, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Michael Parkinson
- Support
- Oppose
- Why? Iostn (talk) 11:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- "the great British talkshow host" Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- Discussion
Remove Gerry Ryan
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Just three interwikis. pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Frank Skinner
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Only five interwikis. pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Alan Titchmarsh
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Only four interwikis. pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Ryan Tubridy
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Just one interwiki. pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Denise Welch
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Just six interwikis. pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Alan Whicker
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Just seven interwikis. pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Richard Whiteley
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Just two interwikis. pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Paula Yates
- Support
- pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 06:53, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:41, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Don Burke
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Just two interwikis. pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Denise Drysdale
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Just three interwikis. pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 11:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Bruce Gyngell
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
No interwiki links. pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 11:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Kerri-Anne Kennerley
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Just one interwiki. pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 11:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Gretel Killeen
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Just one interwiki. pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Don Lane
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Just three interwikis. pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Just three interwikis. pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Eddie McGuire
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Just three interwikis. pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Bert Newton
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Less-notable sidekick of Graham Kennedy pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Daryl Somers
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Just a single interwiki link. pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove some pre-modern scientists
I'm just going to make a giant block request for this one. The scientists I'm about to list either have single-digit interwikis, stubs, or both. NOTE: IW = interwikis, P=Paragraphs
- Agathodaemon (alchemist)
5 (2IW and 3P)
- Aglaonice
5 (3P)
- Ahmes
5 (1P)
- Callippus
5 (4P)
- Cleopatra the Physician
5 (4IW and 4P)
- Du Shi
5 (8IW)
- Menaechmus
5 (6P)
- Pandrosion
5 (5P)
- Pingala
5 (4P)
- Pseudo-Democritus
5 (3IW)
- Tapputi
5 (3P)
- Zhang Zhongjing
5 (6P)
- Adelle of the Saracens
5 (3IW and 4P)
- Anthemius of Tralles
5 (6P)
- Dobrodeia of Kiev
5 (4P)
- Ibn Sahl (mathematician)
5 (4P)
- Al-ʻIjliyyah
5 (Throwing this in because almost all of the paragraphs consists of a single sentence.)
- Jia Xian
5 (9IW and 3P)
- Mahāvīra (mathematician)
5 (4P)
- Qin Jiushao
5 (6P)
- Yang Hui
5 (6P)
- Zhu Shijie
5 (5P)
- Support
- Oppose
- Keep Mahāvīra (mathematician) and Pingala at least. J947 ‡ edits 05:32, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose all on principle. These kinds of block nominations completely lack nuance and end up making some wild assumptions based on very little. Take Aglaonice, for example; her article may be relatively short and underdeveloped, but she was one of the first astronomers documented to have learned the cycle of lunar eclipses, has 37 interwikis, and has had a species of moth and a crater of Venus named after her. But the nominator wants her removed because of article quality and no other assessment? --Grnrchst (talk) 14:17, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- The more I look at it, the worse it gets. Menaechmus, who discovered conic sections and has 29 interwikis; Tapputi, who was one of the first recorded chemists and has 24 interwikis; Zhang Zhongjing, who contributed so much to his period's medical understanding that he is held to be a sage, 23 interwikis; Anthemius of Tralles, the architect of the Hagia Sophia(!!!) and has 39 interwikis. It is astounding that these are all lumped together in a block removal proposal for no other reason than their articles aren't very long... --Grnrchst (talk) 14:43, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with the above. We can't just remove biographies on the basis that they're short don't have interwikis. These articles should be based on the contribution of their respective discipline in the context of the time. The whole point of WP:VITAL isn't to document Wikipedia's best articles, but to highlight the ones which are significant in the context of history. Thus, only sound reasoning outlining specifically the contribution (or lack thereof) of each individual person should be all that is considered when removing or adding articles. I am opposed to this removal and I am opposed to this style of 'block nominations'. Idiosincrático (talk) 14:39, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
- User:Grnrchst, User:Idiosincrático: OK, first off, you guys know you can easily just say "Keep so-and-so" right? Second, the entire purpose of this project is to find globally relevant articles and bring them to at least good article quality. So yes, I do think that article quality and the amount of interwikis are good indication to judge vitality. If an article have spent most of its existence of with only a handful of paragraphs, that indicates that it's not possible to improve it. If an article has only a handful of interwikis, that indicates that it's not globally relevant. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:46, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
Remove Leonid Brekhovskikh
5
Just five paragraphs (of which only three are actually paragraph-length) and four interwikis.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:08, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- Not even 100 pageviews in the past month Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:27, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
We still have way too many authors from the U.S. and Canada, and this guy does not seem to have had any amount of influence.
- Support
- As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:19, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 18:16, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:34, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
Remove some world musicians
I hate to say this because we do need a more global array of people for this project, but I am coming across a lot of musicians with single digit interwikis. I am going to do a block request for each section and list the people I want removed along with the amount of interwikis they have.
Remove some non-Western art musicians
- Turgun Alimatov
5 (3)
- Min Huifen
5 (2)
- Daihachi Oguchi
5 (3)
- Yatsuhashi Kengyo
5 (5)
- Muthiah Bhagavatar
5 (4)
- Buhurizade Mustafa Itri
5 (2)
- Tanburi Büyük Osman Bey (0; already being discussed)
- K. P. H. Notoprojo
5 (5)
- Michio Miyagi
5 (8)
- Swathi Thirunal Rama Varma
5 (8)
- Mei Baojiu
5 (6)
- Farida Parveen
5 (6)
- Faramarz Payvar
5 (5)
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:41, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support all Makkool (talk) 19:44, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
- remove unstruck per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Support Turgun Alimatov (only 116 views in the past month) and Min Huifen (96). Iostn (talk) 23:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Oppose removing Muthiah Bhagavatar and Buhurizade Mustafa Itri. Iostn (talk) 23:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
- Hesitant to remove some of these, but I think the intent is to cut Artists, musicians, and composers section down to quota Makkool (talk) 19:44, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
Remove some religious musicians
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Shlomo Carlebach (musician) (9)
- Debbie Friedman
5 (8)
- William Billings
5 (9)
- Raihan
5 (6)
- Junoon (band)
5 (8)
- Support
#SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:41, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
- I hereby withdraw this proposal. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:44, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep Shlomo Carlebach ("the foremost Jewish religious songwriter of the 20th century") and Junoon ("Pakistan's and one of South Asia's most successful bands"), remove the rest. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Lord Kitchener (calypsonian)
5
Luckily for the Caribbean section, Kitchener is the only one with less than ten interwikis (4).
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:41, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 19:44, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Regardless of interwikis he is quite clearly influential in the development of calypso, and pageviews are far higher than many of the others being proposed here. Iostn (talk) 23:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
Remove the entire klezmer sectionSwap Dave Tarras with Giora Feidman
I'm already requesting the removal of Josef Gusikov, but the other two (Naftule Brandwein On second thought, I am just going to nominate Tarras for removal. To keep Brandwein from being lonely, I am also going to advocate adding Giora Feidman. I think Fiedman the only klezmer musician with double-digit interwiki figures.
5 and Dave Tarras
5) also have single digit interwikis (9 and 3 respectively).
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:41, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support swap Makkool (talk) 19:44, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
@User:Makkool, proposal has been changed. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:44, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Remove some non-English pop musicians
- Phyu Phyu Kyaw Thein
5 (2)
- Azam Khan (singer)
5 (3)
- Vital Signs (band)
5 (3)
- Lee Mi-ja
5 (4)
- Awie
5 (5)
- KRU
5 (2)
- Sharifah Aini
5 (3)
- Sarantuya
5 (7)
- Muboraksho Mirzoshoyev
5 (8)
- Gru (rapper)
5 (2)
- W. D. Amaradeva
5 (4)
- Clarence Wijewardena
5 (2)
- APO Hiking Society
5 (3)
- Gong Qiuxia
5 (9)
- Teng Yu-hsien
5 (7)
- Boudewijn de Groot
5 (8)
- Irakli Charkviani
5 (7)
- Kaveret
5 (9)
- Vali Rácz
5 (6)
- Abrar-ul-Haq
5 (8)
- Narayan Gopal
5 (9)
- Aruna Lama
5 (8)
- Dewa 19
5 (8)
- Didi Kempot
5 (9)
- Koes Plus
5 (5)
- Ichirō Fujiyama
5 (6)
- Michiya Mihashi
5 (8)
- Pink Lady (duo)
5 (9)
- The Stalin
5 (7)
- Ros Serey Sothea
5 (9)
- Drunken Tiger
5 (8)
- Shin Joong-hyun
5 (7)
- Cartola
5 (9)
- Lydia Mendoza
5 (6)
- Menudo (group)
5 (5)
- Felipe Pinglo Alva
5 (9)
- Rodrigo (musician)
5 (7)
- Vikingarna (band)
5 (8)
- Eraserheads
5 (6)
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:41, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep APO Hiking Society, Vital Signs and Azam Khan - remove the rest. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support removing Phyu Phyu Kyaw Thein (unclear if she is one of the most notable Burmese pop musicians), Muboraksho Mirzoshoyev and Sarantuya.
- Oppose
- Oppose removing Azam Khan, Vital Signs, Lee Mi-ja (Trot is an important older form of Korean pop music), Awie, W. D. Amaradeva and APO Hiking Society.
- Discuss
Remove some African musicians
- Christy Essien-Igbokwe
5 (6)
- Mahmoud Guinia
5 (4)
- Lady Jaydee
5 (3)
- Le Grand Kallé
5 (4)
- E. T. Mensah
5 (3)
- Daniel Owino Misiani
5 (3)
- Ayub Ogada
5 (6)
- Wazimbo
5 (3)
- Ayinde Barrister
5 (6)
- Diamond Platnumz
5 (9)
- Eusèbe Jaojoby
5 (7)
- Jua Cali
5 (5)
- Mamady Keïta
5 (7)
- Tunde King
5 (5)
- Mahotella Queens
5 (8)
- Thomas Mapfumo
5 (9)
- Siti binti Saad
5 (9)
- Tilahun Gessesse
5 (7)
- Lourdes Van-Dúnem
5 (8)
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:41, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support all. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
- remove unstruck per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Support Mahmoud Guinia, Lady Jaydee, Daniel Owino Misiani and Wazimbo. Iostn (talk) 23:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Oppose removing Ayub Ogada and Le Grand Kallé. Iostn (talk) 23:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
General comments
I really do not understand why this is being judged using interwikis as the sole metric for measuring vitality, not to mention that bloc nominations have been criticised many times before for being hard to implement on voting. Another massive problem with this is for the "African popular music" section, where you are using interwiki links to measure vitality while African languages are notorious for being underrepresented and thus automatically have a disadvantage if you are using those to measure vitality - as can be seen by the fact that the number of those nominated for removal equals half the entire articles listed in the section. As such I'm effectively opposing all of these proposals in the current state, at least until they are being looked at individually. Iostn (talk) 10:02, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
- I expressed concerns for this type of viewpoint on a different proposal on a different talk page. Per WP:SYSBIAS, it is proven that Wikipedia has a general bias against developing nations and leaves their articles generally less developed. This also applies to whether or not the articles exist on other language Wikipedias. Also speaking from that viewpoint, some of these proposals would leave Western musicians, an already messy session, vastly over-represented. I can get behind using interwikis for some proposals (it made sense for stuff like the television hosts), but it just doesn't make sense her per the SYSBIAS essay. λ NegativeMP1 16:48, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
- Where have bloc nominations been criticised? I don't take a stand on systemic bias, but if we intend to make any progress in cutting the sections over-quota by over a hundred articles, we need to think of new ideas than having just individual nominations. Makkool (talk) 17:05, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
- I can agree with you on that, as I do think massive cuts are needed, but my concern is more or less that we should be cautious, and interwikis may not be the best metric for 100% of nominations. λ NegativeMP1 18:11, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
- Regardless of country of origin, having 0 or 1 interwikis is a red flag. If you want to compensate for underrepresentation of Africans, maybe the rule of thumb should be 5 interwikis in the Third World and 10 in the First... pbp 23:02, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
@User:Makkool, @Iostn, @User:NegativeMP1: After much thought, I decided to withdraw my nominations for mostly everyone with more than five interwikis due to the issues brought up (so just close my religious section request). I am also withdrawing my nominations for K. P. H. Notoprojo (he is probably the biggest name in gamelan), Faramarz Payvar (his Persian article kind of indicates he is a major Persian traditional musician), Koes Plus (six of their albums are on Rolling Stone Indonesia's 150 Greatest Indonesian Albums of All Time list), Menudo (one of the biggest boy bands), Jua Cali (represents genge), and Tunde King (founder of jùjú music). I'm still going to nominate those with less than five interwikis (that's still too small to be on here), along with Yatsuhashi Kengyo (stub), Awie (does not have at Rate Your Music page, although his previous band Wings does have one), Sarantuya (stub), Muboraksho Mirzoshoyev (does not have at Rate Your Music page), Christy Essien-Igbokwe (she was originally listed under the music industry figures for reasons I just can't find), and Ayub Ogada (I'm not seeing anything that makes him vital). SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:44, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
- I've finally gone through and attempted to vote on these, but I think many of those that were withdrawn could've easily gone anyways, regardless of however many times the article has been translated. Iostn (talk) 23:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
Remove Harry Glicken
5
Hate to remove a featured article, but he only has six interwikis.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:45, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
- No indication of vitality. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:10, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
- His mentor David A. Johnston
5 was much more vital than him. Makkool (talk) 06:01, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Bruce C. Heezen
5
Stub. He did worked with Marie Tharp 4 and he does have a ship named after him, but I'm not sure if his article can be improved.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:15, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
- Low pageviews Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Nicolas Appert
Known as the father of food science. Invented airtight food preservation, has 84 interwikis, and is the only person rated top-importance in the Food Wikiproject.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:16, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
- Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:58, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 06:01, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Solomon Linda
To make up for the drastic cuts I was proposing for the African music section, here's the original singer/writer for The Lion Sleeps Tonight 5.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:43, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 06:01, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:26, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
She's the only Seven Great Singing Stars we don't have on here. I understand the unusual conditions regarding her, but she has the second highest amount of interwikis amongst the seven.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:55, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 06:01, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:42, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Swap Kander and Ebb
5 with John Kander and Fred Ebb
Other than four other Wikipedias, no one has bothered to write a page on the songwriter pairing itself. Kander and Ebb themselves at least have 18 and 15 interwikis respectively, however.
- Support
- Oppose
- Discuss
Swap Bryan brothers
5 with Bob Bryan and Mike Bryan
Same thing as above, although at least the article about this pair has at least nine interwikis. (Bob and Mike themselves have 36 and 34.) Admittedly, Kander and Ebb at least makes up for that for not treating the article on their pairing as the main one.
- Support
- Oppose
- They are known for their doubles career and not for their individual accomplishments. Aurangzebra (talk) 13:36, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
Remove Christian Samuel Weiss
Only three paragraphs.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:57, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Tunka Manin
I hate to say this, but I think the Ghana Empire 4 is just going to have to be one of those countries where we don't list any of its leaders. Only three paragraphs and three interwikis.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 07:53, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 05:59, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove John Luther Long
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Wrote one decently popular short story that inspired a few other works. I could maybe see including the story, although even that would be a stretch, but this guy has no reason to be on the list, especially when we have this many modern American/Canadian authors. Only 8 interwikis.
- Support
- As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:01, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 05:59, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:07, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
Remove KondZilla
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I do want someone to represent funk carioca, and he does look like he has a pretty big YouTube career, but he only has four interwikis.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:41, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 05:59, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Support swap with Brazilian funk. The Blue Rider
10:58, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Not really convinced by judging this solely on interwikis, especially for someone from a Global South country which don't normally get the same level of cultural attention internationally. That aside, having the third largest music YouTube channel shouldn't be dismissed. Iostn (talk) 21:55, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
Remove Anangabhima Deva III
5 and Suhungmung
5
Both figures have only three interwikis.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:19, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 05:59, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:43, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
- Oppose
Remove Gyalsey Tenzin Rabgye
5
Stub. We also have Ngawang Namgyal 5 on here, who is probably the only Bhutanese figure we need for this period.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 08:02, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:50, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- Low page views, and ruler of a country that to this day has a population of under a million Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Only four interwikis.
- Support
- Oppose
- Appears to be a significant pre-colonial ruler who is still commemorated today in the Philippines in the present day, interwikis are not a great way of measuring vitality for something as underrepresnted as pre-colonial historical figures in the Global South Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- per above Makkool (talk) 07:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
For basically the exact same reasons as why I proposed Billie Eilish for removal from this list. Beyond some listings from blogs, a few awards, wax statues and an increase in rates of babies named after her (how the hell are these considered "legacy" / "impact"??), she's had no proven long term impact on the music industry yet and her career only spans a decade. This listing is blatant WP:RECENTISM in a section currently over quota. Same as with Billie, if this impact changes in the future, we can always revisit.
- Support
- As nom. λ NegativeMP1 01:06, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:50, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discussion
PBP popular music cuts
Remove Joan Armatrading
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I don't see anything at all to indicate vitality. No Grammies, no #1 single or album, nothing.
- Support
- pbp 19:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 19:54, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- I think she was just put on here to fill up the Caribbean section, which as I mentioned when I moved her to the general pop section, she did not fit beyond being born there. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:40, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Al Bowlly
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Maybe it's because his article's poorly written, but I'm not seeing enough evidence that he's VA5. Only 11 interwikis which is underwhelming for a pop figure. pbp 19:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 19:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 19:54, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- I think he's the biggest name in British dance band? But yeah, just remove him. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:40, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove The Shirelles
5
Doesn't have the acclaim of some of the other groups on here. pbp 19:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 19:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 19:54, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
On the one hand, they recorded "Will You Love Me Tomorrow" and "Tonight's the Night". On the other hand, they were not as big as The Supremes or as critically loved as The Ronettes. Neutral overall. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:40, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
Remove The Wiggles
5
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Very little chart success in Australia and almost none outside of it. pbp 19:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- Oppose
- The article demonstates their influence well. Children's music is a genre where vitality doesn't translate well to chart success. We should also list some other children's music artist besides Alvin and the Chipmunks. Makkool (talk) 19:54, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- Per Makkool. If we're judging solely within the context of children's music, they're the biggest act of all time. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:40, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- Discussion
Remove Francis II of France
Only ruled for one year. Was basically just a pawn for his mother.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:40, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
US actors removals
These were suggested above in the Casey Affleck / Jared Leto proposal, which just passed. I'll open them up for discussion, where we could also test the criteria to include an actor in V5. Makkool (talk) 23:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
Remove Rami Malek
5
Could he be too recent new actor where it's not clear if his career will be vital? He's an Academy Award winner though.
- Support
- I think there should be more than one Academy Award to be automatically vital. Makkool (talk) 23:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Forest Whitaker
5
An esteemed character actor, whose also an Academy Award winner. Although most of his acclaim is from a role in one specific film, The Last King of Scotland.
- Support
- I think there should be more than one Academy Award to be automatically vital. Makkool (talk) 23:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- He's a prominent black actor. SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:33, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
Remove Zac Efron
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Star of a hit franchise, High School Musical, and now has a career doing character roles. No major awards.
- Support
- No basis for vitality Makkool (talk) 23:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Is High School Musical even vital? SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:33, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- pbp 02:58, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Chris Cooper
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Another esteemed character actor, who's an Academy Award winner.
- Support
- I think there should be more than one Academy Award to be automatically vital. Makkool (talk) 23:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:33, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- As the person who first brought this up Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove James Franco
5
Golden Globe winner, but his career seems to have petered out because of sexual misconduct allegations.
- Support
- Only an Academy Award nomination. Makkool (talk) 23:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- pbp 02:58, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Seth Rogen
5
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Golden Globe nominations. Has starred in popular comedies, but it might be too early to say anything about his legacy in film comedy.
- Support
- Support for now Makkool (talk) 23:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- He is way too big to be removed. SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:33, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
Remove Lady Jane Grey
Unlike Empress Matilda, whose claim to the throne lasted for years, Grey's claim to the throne only lasted for nine days.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:58, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 07:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove some British Prime Ministers
These PMs only had the position for about a year or so.
Only about seventeen months.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:02, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 07:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Only seven months.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:25, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 07:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Only about eleven months.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:39, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 07:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Only has an accumulated tenure of fifteen months.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:22, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 07:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Only about fifteen months.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:45, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 07:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Only about eight months.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:13, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 07:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Head of state of Sudan since 2019. Leads the Sudanese Armed Forces (SAF) against the Rapid Support Forces (RSF) in the ongoing War in Sudan. He also botched the Sudanese transition to democracy.
- Support
- As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Joseph Kasa-Vubu
First President of the Democratic Republic of the Congo (from only five today), serving from 1960 to 1965. His tensions with Patrice Lumumba 4 were one of the causes of the Congo Crisis
5. Also, the DRC has 105 million people and only 4 politicians.
- Support
- As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 08:12, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Friedrich Ebert
He is sometimes viewed as the world’s first social democratic head of state and one of the only three “real” Presidents of Germany from 1918 to 1945. His legacy is complex and controversial, particularly concerning the crises that led to Hitler's rise to power.
- Support
- As nominator. To politicians. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Georgi Plekhanov
Known as “the father of Russian Marxism”, he was undeniably an immense influence on the Bolsheviks, who gave him the rare distinction of admiring him despite his misgivings towards them.
- Support
- As nominator. To revolutionaries. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Sylvia Pankhurst
Arguably a more effective activist than her mother, Emmeline Pankhurst 4, her work was characterized by a commitment to what we would today call intersectionality. Focusing on class and gender, she was one of the leading European figures for decolonization and was active on three continents.
- Support
- As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- Surprised there isn't an article on the Pankhurst family Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- The pre-eminent figure of the early British communist movement and very influential in soliciting allied support for Ethiopia. 34 interwikis, averages 245 page views per day. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:54, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Russian revolutionary who played an important role in the October Revolution 5 and as an architect of the early Soviet system, particularly education and women’s rights.
- Support
- As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Sophus Lie
Norwegian mathematician best known for his contributions to Lie algebra 5s and Lie group
5s, named after him.
- Support
- As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 16:54, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- Per nom Mathwriter2718 (talk) 13:42, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Honoré I, Lord of Monaco
There's been rumbling around here regarding the ratio of the population of a country and the amount of leaders that we made vital. I should note that Monaco has nine people on here despite having a population of less than 40k. I'm going to nominate this guy; I'm just not seeing anything that would make him vital.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:17, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:31, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Adrian Lamo
5
Other than exposing Chelsea Manning 5, I cant really think of a reason to keep him here. He hacked a bunch of high-profile companies, but I don't think that enough to make him vital.
- Support
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Tron (hacker)
5
Other than maybe his naming controversy, I don't think he's vital. We have too many phreakers in this list. I don't think he's the notable levels of John Draper 5 and I never heard of his name.
- Support
- 49p (talk) 17:37, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:29, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Might I suggest swapping for Markus Hess, who was involved in a significent espionage incident? Iostn (talk) 17:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- His case seems big, but I'm not sure about his legacy. To be fair, I don't thinks any computer hacker's legacy are big as Kevin Mitnick
5 or even Gary McKinnon
5. Which sucks, cause I honestly never heard of this guy and he seems very talented.
- I honestly think computer hackers should be reduced. It should be around the numbers of the espionage section, which has eight articles. Those eight articles are arguably important to each country's history, and I feel like hackers should be like that. 49p (talk) 17:34, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- fwiw, I think there should actually be more entries listed under espionage (even though in many cases there's an overlap with other fields) Iostn (talk) 18:07, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
Add Weezer
Not sure why these guys arent listed? Weezer (Blue Album) and Pinkerton (album) are considered to one of the greatest album of 1990s. Not to mention, but Pinkerton (album) is extremely known to be influential in Emo 5 and Alternative rock
5. I even think Pinkerton is possibly enough on its own to be vital. I guess these guys are ignored because popularity ≠ vitality, but I think they have a chance here.
- Support
- 49p (talk) 17:50, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- I could also see a case for Pinkerton being vital, since it alone seems to have been decently influential, has a lot of post-release acclaim, and a perfect 100 on Metacritic. λ NegativeMP1 02:31, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. Aurangzebra (talk) 06:15, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Bad Brains
Known for influencing Foo Fighters 5, Beastie Boys
5, Rage Against the Machine, Red Hot Chili Peppers
5 etc. Known for combining Reggae
4 with Hardcore punk
5 and Alternative metal. It is also known for being a Rastafari
4 band, and one of the earliest Hardcore punk
5 pioneers.
- Support
- Oppose
- Not a well-known band and some of the bands they've influenced are likely to also be removed pbp 13:25, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- What do you mean by well-known? Do you mean mainstream? Sure, but there's a bunch of bands we list that aren't really "mainstream", but defining for the genre. For bands they've influenced, I guess you're right here. However, there's pretty clear bands that are definitely vital like Guns N' Roses
5 or Nirvana (band)
5, so the claim isn't really lost.
- I think Bad Brains are vital in the same reason on why we list Black Flag (band)
5, Minor Threat
5, or Dead Kennedys
5. Is there something that I'm missing to why they aren't vital? 49p (talk) 02:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Musicians and bands is very bloated right now and the bands that didn't achieve long-term success or have many chart-topping hits are either not going to be removed or not going to be added in the first place pbp 13:08, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- What do you mean by well-known? Do you mean mainstream? Sure, but there's a bunch of bands we list that aren't really "mainstream", but defining for the genre. For bands they've influenced, I guess you're right here. However, there's pretty clear bands that are definitely vital like Guns N' Roses
- Discuss
Remove Agüeybaná II and Cunhambebe
Both only have three interwikis. Wish I can think of another historical native Brazilian leader to replace the latter, but I can't. The Taíno still have Hatuey 5 though.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:59, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- We should probably have more Native American leaders, not fewer pbp 13:24, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
Add Edmund Andros
Think we can have one more colonial American administrator. Rated high-importance on a lot of WikiProjects, he was the Governor of New York for nine years, the Governor of Virginia for almost six years, and the Governor of Maryland for a couple of months. But what makes him vital in my opinion is his role as the Royal Governor of the Dominion of New England, where he pissed off everyone so much that he was immediately overthrown once word of the Glorious Revolution reach the colonies.
- Support
- Oppose
- Discuss
I'm 50/50 on this one. Were I listing American colonial figures close to VA5 but not there (call it VA5.5 if you will), Andros is one of the omissions; so are the Calverts, James Oglethorpe and Peter Stuyvesant (the latter an interesting one because a) New York is currently the largest of the 13 former colonies, and b) Stuyvesant would be the only non-British colonial figure on the list.) This also seems to fly somewhat in the face of when, earlier this year, we removed quite a few Usonian American politicians, some of whom have as good or better claim to this spot. Those removals would also suggest against a consensus for more Usonian pbp 03:26, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
Add Willie O'Ree
First black National Hockey League player. Although not the first person of color in the NHL, O'Ree is widely regarded as the "Jackie Robinson of hockey".
Would be added to Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Sports figures#Wingers.
- Support
- As nom. B3251(talk) 21:43, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Keir Starmer
New UK prime minister.
- Support
- As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 21:50, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
If he lasts into 2025... pbp 01:39, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
Add Vito Volterra
Regarded as a founder of Functional analysis 4. Known for multiple equations, including Lotka–Volterra equations
5.
- Support
- Oppose
- Discuss
Swap Leah Keshet with D'Arcy Wentworth Thompson
Thompson is far more notable under the topic of mathematical and theoretical biology. Well known for On Growth and Form, his work has influenced incredibly notable academics including Alan Turing 3, Claude Lévi-Strauss
4, Le Corbusier
4, and Ludwig Mies van der Rohe
4.
- Support
- As nom. B3251(talk) 03:12, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. Aurangzebra (talk) 06:13, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:43, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Swap Florence La Badie with Rachel McAdams
Plenty of more notable Canadian actresses. Proposing a swap with Rachel McAdams so that a modern Canadian actress can be added, which, as far as I'm aware, we don't have yet.
- Support
- As nom. B3251(talk) 03:59, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Support remove for now Makkool (talk) 11:31, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Elliot Page
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Although Page has not won an Academy Award/BAFTA like some other actors listed, Page is unarguably one of the most notable transgender actors and beats plenty of other listed actors in terms of notability.
- Support
- As nom. B3251(talk) 04:18, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:34, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Regardless of how much work he has done since coming out, I think that just adds another dimension to someone who was already influential beforehand, regardless of wherever they were selected for an award or not. Iostn (talk) 17:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- I am tentatively here because I feel that he hasn't done a huge amount since publicly coming out in 2020. Most of his success was when he was not yet publicly transgender. starship.paint (RUN) 14:29, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- per starship.paint. I can see him becoming VA5 at some point but not just yet. Aurangzebra (talk) 23:01, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
Remove Gosamaru
Barely a start article. Only three interwikis.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:36, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 23:01, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 04:22, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:25, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Peter Mansbridge
Broadcast journalists and commentators is pretty American/Australian-centric at the moment, with most of the 80 articles listed being from either of the two countries. There currently isn't a Canadian/Canadian-based broadcast journalist in this category and I feel that Mansbridge is probably the most notable of them. To justify the lack of interwikis, many other journalists currently listed in this category also don't have much interwikis either.
- Support
- As nom. B3251(talk) 16:50, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Long career at the head of a major network, lots of awards, and the article is rated High-Importance by WikiProject Canada. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:01, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Stephen Rodefer
5
One interwiki.
- Support
- As nom. B3251(talk) 17:43, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- pbp 18:17, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- No indication of vitality. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:06, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 11:31, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 23:02, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Johnny Sins
Zero explanation needed.
- Support
- As nom. B3251(talk) 17:43, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Seemingly very popular and prolific. 40 interwikis. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:59, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:56, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Ned Brooks
5
Only listed as the second-longest tenured moderator of Meet the Press. That claim is unsourced, the longest tenured presenter is also only VA5, and this man does not seem to have had an influence on anything.
- Support
- As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:04, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 04:22, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 19:54, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 06:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
Remove Roger Williams (soldier)
Only one interwiki.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:53, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 04:22, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- Does not seem important enough. QuicoleJR (talk) 11:26, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 06:05, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Noël Jourda de Vaux
Only four interwikis.
- Support
- SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:42, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 04:22, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 06:05, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:35, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove John Kennedy Toole
5
We still have way too many modern American/Canadian writers (currently over 280) and this guy is seemingly one of the least important people still listed. Not every Pulitzer Prize in Fiction winner is vital (we already do not list all of them) and this guy has little else going for him. Two obscure books, published posthumously, with minimal influence. There are plenty of topics and people that I would rather list.
- Support
- As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:53, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 19:54, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Oppose. I consider A Confederacy of Dunces
5 to be a classic (and it seems like other editors agree by including it on VA5). It is listed as the 227th greatest book of all time on the aggregator site Greatest Books [1]. We include plenty of other "one-hit wonder" authors (off a quick glance, examples include Alex Haley
5 and Kate Chopin
5) so I think it's fair we include the author of one of the staples of Southern literature. If we want to remove some authors from this list, there are so many better contenders e.g. Tucker Max
5 whose work has aged incredibly poorly and Andrew Neiderman
5 whose two novels with Wikipedia articles have 0 interwikis. Aurangzebra (talk) 05:59, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Aurangzebra: With Haley and Chopin, they each have several stories with articles. Toole only has two. They also have significantly more recognition and awards than Toole, who only received one award. For this situation, especially considering the fact that the book was published posthumously and the fact that writers in general is well over the quota, I think it would be fine to list the book without also listing the author. BTW, thanks for the suggestion for Neiderman, I nominated him for removal below. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:20, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Fair opinion. I don't think I'll change my vote mainly because I feel like it doesn't make sense to a list a novel in VA5 and not also include its author but I do respect the reasoning behind the counterpoints. Aurangzebra (talk) 05:36, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Aurangzebra: With Haley and Chopin, they each have several stories with articles. Toole only has two. They also have significantly more recognition and awards than Toole, who only received one award. For this situation, especially considering the fact that the book was published posthumously and the fact that writers in general is well over the quota, I think it would be fine to list the book without also listing the author. BTW, thanks for the suggestion for Neiderman, I nominated him for removal below. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:20, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Neutral
- Discuss
Film scholar additions
There is under-representation in art historians of scholars and historians focusing on film. I feel these could be essential names to list, to have more balance between different art forms in that section.
- It is worth noting that it may seem like film scholars are under-represented simply because film theory as an independent field is a relatively novel concept but there are many prominent film scholars we list whose primary contributions are in other domains e.g. François Truffaut
4 who was foremost a director and Gilles Deleuze
5 who was primarily a philosopher. Aurangzebra (talk) 06:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- It is worth noting that it may seem like film scholars are under-represented simply because film theory as an independent field is a relatively novel concept but there are many prominent film scholars we list whose primary contributions are in other domains e.g. François Truffaut
- Yeah, that's correct. We also already list Sergei Eisenstein
4 and André Bazin
5 who are prominent, and the latter is represented in the art historians and critics section. I think with the space we have, we can list some more. Makkool (talk) 09:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, that's correct. We also already list Sergei Eisenstein
Add David Bordwell
His book Film Art "is still used as a seminal text in introductory film courses". 14 interwikis.
- Support
- As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:26, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Going to reserve judgment on this one but it's worth noting that we don't include seminal textbook authors in other more noteworthy fields. Aurangzebra (talk) 06:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- His article also mentions that he has written "influential articles on theory, narrative, and style". He seems to be an important figure in academic film studies, at least in North America. Don't know if his scholarship is read in Europe for example. Makkool (talk) 09:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
Add Laura Mulvey
5
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Pioneering feminist film analyst. "Helped shift the orientation of film theory towards a psychoanalytic framework" and introduced the concept of "male gaze".
- Support
- As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:26, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- makes sense Aurangzebra (talk) 06:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:49, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 21:22, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
Add Vito Russo
Queer film theorist and author of The Celluloid Closet, "'an essential reference book' on homosexuality in the US film industry".
- Support
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
Add Manthia Diawara
African film scholar who "contributed significantly to the study of black film".
- Support
- As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:26, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
Add IShowSpeed
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Undoubtedly the most popular 2020s internet live streamer. Has a whopping 82 interwikis, even more than other significant YouTube/internet personalities like MrBeast 5 and PewDiePie
5.
- Support
- As nom. B3251(talk) 19:51, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- A bit recent, but he is the most famous and prominent streamer of this decade so far. We can remove him later if he's overtaken or fades into obscurity, but at present he's an obvious addition IMO and would be one of the best picks for expanding the internet personalities section. λ NegativeMP1 19:54, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Who? This decade has 4 years, so not that impressive of a feat if that statement is even true. The Blue Rider
21:19, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- We list other internet personalities like Jeffree Star
5, who are objectively far less notable. Just because you personally don't know this person doesn't make them any less notable. B3251(talk) 22:14, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Two wrongs don't make a right, Jeffree Star should be removed. This YouTuber is a fad; plus being popular alone isn't a strong enough reason for inclusion, it needs to have some sort of impact. Also, that sentence can very well be reversed, just because you know him doesn't make him any more vital; if you go ask the average person who this YouTuber is they will look at you clueless. The Blue Rider
22:47, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Two wrongs don't make a right, Jeffree Star should be removed. This YouTuber is a fad; plus being popular alone isn't a strong enough reason for inclusion, it needs to have some sort of impact. Also, that sentence can very well be reversed, just because you know him doesn't make him any more vital; if you go ask the average person who this YouTuber is they will look at you clueless. The Blue Rider
- We list other internet personalities like Jeffree Star
- Oppose. I do know Speed and I am aware of his popularity but he has not done anything to demonstrate his longevity just yet nor has he been particularly influential to mainstream culture. I don't agree with the sentiment that we should add him now and remove him if he fades into obscurity because streamer longevity is notoriously hard to achieve. Take Adin Ross for example: at his peak, he was extremely popular and was regularly doing streams with big name celebrities; now, he barely makes a blip on the radar. We also don't follow this pattern in other categories where it would make a lot more sense e.g. we don't automatically add the soccer player who wins the Ballon d'Or even though they have more cultural and global influence and cross-generational appeal than streamers do. Aurangzebra (talk) 01:08, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- If we must include more Internet personalities, I would rather have Kai Cenat who is the most-subscribed Twitch streamer of all time, won the 2023 and 2024 Streamer of the Year awards, and popularized the terms rizz and gyat whose use has spread outside of the streamer-sphere. Fwiw, I would also support removing Jeffree Star. Aurangzebra (talk) 01:48, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- I would also support adding Kai Cenat. Not many streamers have accidentally started a riot. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:02, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- If we must include more Internet personalities, I would rather have Kai Cenat who is the most-subscribed Twitch streamer of all time, won the 2023 and 2024 Streamer of the Year awards, and popularized the terms rizz and gyat whose use has spread outside of the streamer-sphere. Fwiw, I would also support removing Jeffree Star. Aurangzebra (talk) 01:48, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Neutral
- Discuss
Visual artists and musicians removal
Remove Horiyoshi III
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Japanese tattoo artist. Made more sense when we had internal quotas, but his recognition seems regional at most.
- Support
- As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 11:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 02:05, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Lev Borodulin
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Russian and Israeli sports photographer. His article does not assert much vitality, and the Russian version is quite short too.
- Support
- As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 11:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. The article is barely intelligible. Aurangzebra (talk) 02:05, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 17:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Elizabeth Zimmermann
5
British-born hand-knitting teacher and designer. Relatively obscure figure. Only 2 interwikis.
- Support
- As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 11:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Sailor Jerry
5
Another tattoo artist who probably doesn’t make the cut with the internal quotas gone.
- Support
- As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 11:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- High pageviews, may be a niche subject relatively speaking but that indicates he's important enough to list when we don't include many tatooists anyway. Iostn (talk) 17:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
Remove Robert Trent Jones
5
Golf course designer. I struggle to think he is among the 120 or so most important architects.
- Support
- As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 11:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Nico
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I appreciate the uniqueness of her discography, but she was never very successful, critically or commercially, and accusations of racism have tarnished her cult status. Falls a little short of other 1970s folk-rock artists we don’t have, like Jackson Browne, Randy Newman, and Bob Seger, and is included within the The Velvet Underground & Nico 5 article.
- Support
- As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- 04:57, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 11:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think VU & Nico is sufficient, as she's rather niche outside of that. Iostn (talk) 17:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- pbp 13:07, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Daniel O'Donnell
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Irish country singer. Stands out for his chart consistency, but not much else.
- Support
- As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 11:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- pbp 19:11, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- Too regional in terms of success, even within the English-speaking world. Iostn (talk) 17:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Barry Manilow
5
We have excluded several musicians due to their lack of commercial success despite some critical recognition and influence. But what about the opposite? Let’s test this on someone whose lede admits he was “not a favorite artist of music critics”.
- Support
- As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- His commercial success and popularity has been world-wide, and not limited to his country of origin. We shouldn't only list critical darlings. Makkool (talk) 11:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 17:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
Remove Journey (band)
5
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Similar to the above. Possible classic rock bias.
- Support
- As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- I agree that there is likely a bias towards classic rock, but I say this one crosses the bar based on the impact of Don't Stop Believin', which has been inducted into the National Recording Registry for being culturally significant, and is also the best selling song digitally from the twentieth century in the United States. Similar bands from this time like Foreigner (band)
5, on the other hand, should be more likely candidates to be removed since they took way longer to get into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, have sold way less certified units than Journey, and don't have a song that even the government considers important. λ NegativeMP1 04:56, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Per above. A popular artist on several continents, Europe and Asia too and not just North America. Makkool (talk) 11:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 17:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
I need more guidance as to how many bands of each genre we want to list before I vote. pbp 15:34, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't really think there's a definitive "we want this many" for each genre. But for me personally I'd only start voting to remove Journey if we decided to only have something like (for this example) 50 rock artists at V5, but before that point I'd say they should be listed before Foreigner, Boston, Chicago, and some others. λ NegativeMP1 17:08, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
Remove Vanilla Ice
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Similar to the above. Today, he is largely a one-hit wonder, and the claim that he introduced the genre to White audiences has been exaggerated, given that the Beastie Boys went platinum in the 1980s.
- Support
- As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 11:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 17:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Andrew Neiderman
5
We have too many recent American authors, and this article does not show any evidence of vitality other than a couple minor film adaptations. Only two of his books even have articles, and neither of those articles have any interwikis.
- Support
- As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:10, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 13:26, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 14:10, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Per nom Mathwriter2718 (talk) 12:55, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
Remove Giannalberto Bendazzi
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I looked through the "art historians and critics" section and there are currently listed six film historians or theorists. Of them, three are animation historians. If you'd also think that's excessive, we could cut at least one of them. Bendazzi's recognition seems to come from one book Cartoons − 100 Years of Cinema Animation, which "has been considered the definitive work on the subject for animation students and scholars." Jerry Beck 5 and John Canemaker
5 seem to have had a much more broad output and could be considered more vital than Bendazzi.
- Support
- Makkool (talk) 13:26, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 14:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Seems also less vital than the not-listed Michael Barrier. I've heard of Barrier, Beck and Canemaker but not of Bendazzi (who also has the fewest pageviews, at ~3 a day).--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 20:58, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
- per above. starship.paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
Remove Bill Monroe (journalist)
5
Above, I nominated Ned Brooks 5 because all he had going for him was being moderator of Meet the Press for a long time. This guy had an even shorter tenure and similarly has no other reason to be on the list. Only 5 interwikis.
- Support
- As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 17:24, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
Remove Jeffree Star
5
Removal was suggested above.
- Support
- As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 22:55, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 23:02, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- Obscure figure with almost zero impact on society. The Blue Rider
13:12, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 13:49, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove Freddy Schuman
5
Seems like a cool guy, but that doesn't make him vital, zero interwikis. I don't think being a "superfan" of something would ever be enough on its own to warrant being here.
- Support
- As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 22:55, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- pbp 03:44, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
- Per nominator. The Blue Rider
13:14, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
- Not vital Mathwriter2718 (talk) 12:54, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add System of a Down
Surprised they aren't listed, probably one of the most well known and influential metal bands of the 2000s. Their album Toxicity was a major hit, especially the lead single "Chop Suey". They've also had numerous other popular songs across their other albums. Certainly they are a lot bigger and more well known than some of the other acts listed at this level. Maykii (talk) 02:43, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
Support
- as nom. Maykii (talk) 02:44, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
- pbp 03:43, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
- You need a more convincing rationale to demonstrate how these guys are V5 worthy, a level that should only have the few hundred most important musicians and bands. Them being "a lot bigger and more well known than some of the other acts listed at this level" really doesn't mean anything when a lot of those acts are probably subject to removal themselves. I don't even see how these guys are more important than the recently removed Bring Me The Horizon. λ NegativeMP1 04:14, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
- Per NegativeMP1. There are too many popular musicians and we can only really list the really elite ones. starship.paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- Rage Against the Machine is a better pick imo. I don't think that many people would agree tho 49p (talk) 15:31, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
Discuss
Add Mary Anning
“She became known internationally for her discoveries in Jurassic marine fossil beds in the cliffs along the English Channel at Lyme Regis in the county of Dorset, Southwest England. Anning's findings contributed to changes in scientific thinking about prehistoric life and the history of the Earth.”
- Support
- As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 13:04, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- J947 ‡ edits 05:07, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 17:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 03:35, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Marguerite Perey
French physicist best known for her discovery of Francium 4.
- Support
- As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 13:04, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- She discovered an element, was nominated for a Nobel prize five times, and was the first woman elected to the Académie des Sciences. --Grnrchst (talk) 15:08, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
German astronomer who is regarded as one of the most prolific women scientists of the 18th century.
- Support
- As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 13:0, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 17:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Nettie Stevens
American geneticist credited with discovering sex chromosomes.
- Support
- As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 13:04, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Per nominator. --Grnrchst (talk) 15:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 17:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Robert Altman
The amount of American directors is admittedly a little too high, and there are probably a few names we could take out. That said, Robert Altman should definitely be added, he's a hugely influential director whose films often show up on "greatest movies" lists, none of which are also vital at this level.
Support
- as nominator. The helper5667
- Support. 5 films in the top 1000 films of all time and 49th in the list of greatest directors of all time according to the critical aggregator TSPDT [2] ahead of other notable American directors we do list such as Terrence Malick
5, Quentin Tarantino
4, and the Coen brothers
5. Aurangzebra (talk) 19:52, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:09, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
Add Jeff Kinney
I know there's been a push to remove American authors but he is the author of the 4th best-selling book series of all time, Diary of a Wimpy Kid, and we list the other 4 authors in the top 5 (J. K. Rowling 5, R. L. Stine
5, Erle Stanley Gardner
5, and Stan and Jan Berenstain
5). Diary of a Wimpy Kid has spawned a media empire complete with live-action and animated films, video games, and even a musical and the books have been republished in 56 languages across 65 different editions. He has 41 interwikis and the Diary of a Wimpy Kid series has 37.
If we do need to remove someone, I've noticed that we list a decent amount of authors who are also famous for some book series that spawned a large empire but to a lesser extent than Diary of a Wimpy Kid. For example, we list Jeff Lindsay 5 who is famous for the Dexter book series that was developed into the much more famous TV show of the same name. Seems like Kinney beats this guy on every metric: more interwikis (41 vs 28), more notability for the authored book series (I bet you that most people don't even know Dexter (TV series) originated from a book series), and more book copies sold. Aurangzebra (talk) 04:03, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
Suport
- as nom Aurangzebra (talk) 04:03, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom 49p (talk) 13:06, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- support per nom., but should we list him with illustrators or writers? Maurice Sendak
5 is currently with writers, but I'm thinking they could be either way considered to be vital for illustrating or writing. Makkool (talk) 14:29, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Good point. I personally have no strong preference but I slightly lean authors since Diary of a Wimpy Kid is a bit more verbose than straightforward illustrated books like Where the Wild Things Are. Aurangzebra (talk) 20:20, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, I think they are categorized as chapter books in book stores and libraries. I'll go ahead and move Sendak to illustrators. Wilhelm Busch
5 is already there, and he's another author whose works have greater emphasis on pictures. Makkool (talk) 21:41, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, I think they are categorized as chapter books in book stores and libraries. I'll go ahead and move Sendak to illustrators. Wilhelm Busch
- Good point. I personally have no strong preference but I slightly lean authors since Diary of a Wimpy Kid is a bit more verbose than straightforward illustrated books like Where the Wild Things Are. Aurangzebra (talk) 20:20, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
- Would rather list the book series. J947 ‡ edits 07:21, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Same.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 06:33, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
Discuss
- Neutral for now, but I would prefer to add the series. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:57, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
French women additions
At the 2024 Summer Olympics opening ceremony, ten women were honoured as vital figures in French history. Of these, five are already listed as level-5 vital articles, the other five are not. As such, I thought I'd take the opportunity to propose the addition of the five missing entries to our list of vital biographies. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:25, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
Add Jeanne Baret
The first woman in history to circumnavigate the globe, Baret worked on the ship of Louis Antoine de Bougainville 5, who described her as an expert botanist for her time. Several plant species and a mountain range on Pluto are named after her. Proposing for addition to explorers list.
- Support
- As nominator. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:25, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:09, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 21:01, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 23:37, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Alice Milliat
A pioneering figure of Women's sports 4, Milliat was the main organiser of the Women's World Games and her lobbying efforts accelerated the inclusion of women at the Olympic Games
3. Proposing for addition to the Olympics section of the sports figures list.
- Support
- As nominator. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:25, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:09, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 21:01, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 23:37, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Paulette Nardal
One of the founding authors of the Négritude literary genre, Nardal provided a platform for black intellectuals to publish their works and cultivate global solidarity among the African diaspora. She was also a major figure in transnational feminism and held several high-ranking positions in the United Nations. Proposing for addition to the Caribbean section of the writers and journalists list.
- Support
- As nominator. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:25, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:09, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 21:01, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 23:37, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Gisèle Halimi
A lawyer that defended people involved in the Algerian and Basque independence movements, and chair of the Russell Tribunal, Halimi was a leading advocate for women's rights to contraception and abortion in France. Proposing for addition to the Modern European jurists section of the philosophers, historians, political and social scientists list.
- Support
- As nominator. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:25, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:09, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 21:01, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Simone Veil
A magistrate by trade, as Minister of Health, Veil promulgated the legalisation of abortion in France. She was also the first woman to serve as the President of the European Parliament and later served as president of the Fondation pour la Mémoire de la Shoah, was elected to the Académie Française and served on the Constitutional Council of France. She received an OBE and received the highest cross of the Legion of Honour. Proposing for addition to the contemporary France section of the politicians and leaders list.
- Support
- As nominator. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:25, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 12:09, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Iostn (talk) 21:01, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 23:37, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove István Fekete
5
Obscure Hungarian children's author, article does not make him seem vital enough. Writers is over quota as well.
- Support
- As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:10, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Per nom. Magda Szabó, Antal Szerb, and Sándor Márai are better bets to join Imre Kertész
5 and Jókai as far as Hungarian writers go. J947 ‡ edits 09:52, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- His book Vuk is very popular and has been translated to many languages. It might be considered an enduring classic only in its origin country, but I would still keep this to lessen Western European and US bias. Makkool (talk) 18:19, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Neutral
- Discuss
- Might be worth noting that several Hungarian sources describe Fekete as the second most widely-read Hungarian author, after Mór Jókai
5.[3][4][5][6] --Grnrchst (talk) 15:05, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
Remove Jean Eustache
5
Seems to be most well-known for directing one acclaimed feature film, making only one other feature-length film and several little-known short films. That seems way off vital level.
- Support
- Oppose
- 105th best director of all time according to the TSPDT aggregator [7]. We list 433 directors. With that many slots, I think everyone in the top 150-200 deserves a spot (and for the most part, we do this; I took a quick look through the list and we list almost every director above Eustache with a few exceptions such as Robert Altman proposed above). Aurangzebra (talk) 23:34, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Would it be reasonable to list The Mother and the Whore instead, since most of his vitality seems to be linked to that film alone? Iostn (talk) 19:08, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss
Minimum appearances for VA5 entertainers
I propose the following bare minimums:
- A film actor needs to appear in at least five films
- A television actor or host needs to have done it for at least three seasons
- A director needs to have directed at least five films or at least a dozen television episodes
- Producers or other crew...same as directors
- Support
- pbp 20:45, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Seems like a safe minimum. I don't think a vital person that has fewer than this could be listed. 49p (talk) 22:58, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- I'm not really sure that we need hard quotas for this. This is a reasonable standard by all means but there are exceptions that make sense and if there are any exceptions, there doesn't seem to be a point to codifying a quota. Two examples off the top of my head that I don't think anyone would vote to remove: Jean Vigo
5 is an extremely influential French New Wave inspiration who is considered the 44th best director of all time according to the TSPDT aggregator. He only directed 4 films (and only 1 of these was a full-length feature film). Another example is James Dean
5. He was an iconic actor and is still extremely well-known to this day but has only appeared in 3 credited roles before his untimely death. Aurangzebra (talk) 23:27, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Vitality is relative, a VA5 topic should be taken out due to voters feeling that there are 50000 more vital ones. They can be vital for a variety of reasons, and any hard prescriptive stat requirement could turn out to be prematurely thought out (even if better stats often but not always indicate more vitality).--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 06:19, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think a statistical minimum for inclusion on the list is not a good idea. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:31, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Discussion
To @Aurangzebra: and @LaukkuTheGreit:, I ask this: how many fewer entertainers should VA5 have, and what's your plan to reduce it to that number? There's consensus that entertainers are greatly bloated, esp. in proportion to VA4, but what's the plan to clean it up? pbp 15:38, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Purplebackpack89: I actually did have an idea for this. I think the hard part about deciding who to remove is that we don't know every person listed at first glance, so we have to go out of their way to skim their Wikipedia article, assess the stats, and come up with a judgment before we decide to make a proposal. This process takes a long time. What I've explored doing (I am currently doing this with American and Canadian modern authors and I will have a batch of proposals out soon) is passing the entire list to an LLM service (I use GPT-4o through my work) and asking it to give a few paragraphs of summary on their biography, accomplishments, their legacy, and why people would consider them notable. It is surprisingly easy to see if something is a candidate for removal from these bite-sized summaries that take a few seconds to skim through. In my opinion, we should do this for all our VA5 articles (this may be easier for People as opposed to concepts), post these somewhere, and have people skim through them to get an idea of what we can remove.
- I may try doing this tonight for actors and posting it on some public repository somewhere (maybe my user page) so you can get an idea of what I'm talking about. Let me know what you think. Aurangzebra (talk) 17:18, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Go ahead and try it. Farming it out to AI may be the easiest way to do it, even if I have some philosophical objections to AI use. I wonder what AI would generate if we ask it "Top 100 American actors" or something similar pbp 18:02, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Go ahead and try it. Farming it out to AI may be the easiest way to do it, even if I have some philosophical objections to AI use. I wonder what AI would generate if we ask it "Top 100 American actors" or something similar pbp 19:21, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- I've been waiting/hoping that User:Zar2gar1 (or someone else) eventually makes the stat-based vitality estimator that has occasionally been talked about. Although VA participants, including me in my oppose vote just above, have cautioned against overreliance on stats, there is still a notable correlation; the way I envision the estimator to be used is to quickly find articles with weak or strong vitality claims, with nominators focusing more on the claims than stats.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 18:36, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
Remove Harold Russell
5
He's a hero, he's in one famous movie, he's NOT VA5 pbp 01:09, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 01:09, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 01:18, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Per nom. J947 ‡ edits 09:51, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Makkool (talk) 17:24, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Not that vital. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:33, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Evanescence
5
Very popular, but I don't think they're a vital band. Other than Fallen, I don't see how this is vital more than missing bands like Weezer (voting here). Seems really similar to the case of why we removed Bring Me the Horizon.
- Support
- 49p (talk) 15:41, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- After thinking about this for a bit, I agree. They had very little long term success (or at least, not enough) that would lead me to consider them one of the few hundred most important artists of all time. I'm not sure how many artists from that era would be able to remain vital, honestly. Would love to be proven wrong, though. λ NegativeMP1 17:18, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- If you're saying "artists from that era" as in the alternative/punk music released in 2000s, then we could probably cut some bands. For example, the punk section has bands like Fall Out Boy
5, Paramore
5 and Avril Lavigne
5 from the era. All successfully, but not really influential. The only band that would survive vitality from the era like Blink-182
5 and Green Day
5 (if they even count to be from that era). 49p (talk) 18:13, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- I wouldn't say Blink-182 and Green Day count as being from that era, but I agree with everything else you've said. I would remove Journey before Green Day. λ NegativeMP1 23:55, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Fair, I only suggested those two cause they're bands that are definitely not getting removed but was somewhere close to the era.
- However when I was checking the bands listed, I noticed that we only have three "emo" bands. Paramore
5. and Fall Out Boy
5 are the few emo bands (according to the genres they are listed on Wikipedia) we currently list. They're actually more akin to a emo-adjacent pop and are much further to pop-punk than emo. The only band we actually list that can be argued that is more closer to emo than pop-punk is My Chemical Romance
5. So we actually only have a single Emo
5 band, and we can probably make a swap to put a emo band. Don't know which band could be worthy of a swap however. 49p (talk) 00:25, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- If this is proposing getting rid of My Chemical Romance in favor of another emo band, I think MCR is just as important of a group as Green Day. If you're referring to getting rid of another group in favor of another emo group (so that we can have two), then sure. λ NegativeMP1 17:41, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- MCR definitely isn't getting removed. I was thinking Avril Lavigne
5 could possibly be swapped. 49p (talk) 17:57, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm working on a batch of removals right now that will probably allow us to add another emo band without sacrificing Avril. I'm 50/50 on if she's vital or not (I know that back in the day she was extremely popular in Japan and China), and we should probably get rid of some of the lesser known/important guys (particularly in the classic rock and country areas) before we start taking out the bigger acts. Nevertheless, I still agree with your comments about us having a second emo act. λ NegativeMP1 01:56, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
- MCR definitely isn't getting removed. I was thinking Avril Lavigne
- If this is proposing getting rid of My Chemical Romance in favor of another emo band, I think MCR is just as important of a group as Green Day. If you're referring to getting rid of another group in favor of another emo group (so that we can have two), then sure. λ NegativeMP1 17:41, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- I wouldn't say Blink-182 and Green Day count as being from that era, but I agree with everything else you've said. I would remove Journey before Green Day. λ NegativeMP1 23:55, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- If you're saying "artists from that era" as in the alternative/punk music released in 2000s, then we could probably cut some bands. For example, the punk section has bands like Fall Out Boy
- Makkool (talk) 17:24, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Remove Bikini Kill
5
I loved their debut on Kill Rock Stars in 1993, and this band is influential to Riot grrrl era of music. But I think there are better ways of showcasing feminism in music, and this band is the weakest in the section it's currently listed. I don't believe this is a case where we list less commercially successful bands like Minor Threat 5, because they are the face of Hardcore punk
5 and DIY music. Bikini Kill is prominent in a sub-genre that we don't list, and we list some feminist bands already like Pussy Riot
5.
However I could be wrong, the cause seems like they have been lauded like Pitchfork giving their compilation album The Singles a perfect 10. I just don't think there's much justification to keep this band. Feel free to disagree.
- Support
- 49p (talk) 16:12, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Support, too much of a niche artist. We used to list riot grrrl as a genre, but it got removed. Makkool (talk) 17:24, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Add John C. Bogle
Founder of the The Vanguard Group 5. Known for his different approach to investing, abstaining from short-term speculation and popularizing the index fund to working-class individuals. His approach to investment is still widely used today, namely those who followed are called "Bogleheads".
- Support
- Oppose
- Discussion
Espionage additions
Above I said that the Espionage subsection under "Miscellaneous" probably should have more than eight listings. Granted there are some that could fit under it that are also under other categories (such as Markus Wolf 5 of the Stasi) but there are others who do not.
Add Eli Cohen
Mossad agent who infiltrated the Syrian government and was later executed, and remains a famed figure in Israeli society.
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 18:04, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
- @Iostn: - I have linked the espionage section in your comment. I think it is best practice to help closers. Thank you. starship.paint (RUN) 00:43, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
Add Chevalier d'Éon
18th century French spy who has been the subject of intrigue for centuries, remains referenced in pop culture and is seen as a figure of transgender history.
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 18:04, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Oleg Penkovsky
Since we already have numerous high profile British and American spies for the Soviet Union listed, here is one of the most high-profile examples of the reverse happening.
- Support
- As nom. Iostn (talk) 18:04, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Mata Hari is currently listed under dancers, but while most of her enduring fame wouldn't have been as widespread if she wasn't a spy, she was definitely also notable as a dancer. I don't have an opinion on this so I will not vote.
- Support
- J947 ‡ edits 06:12, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Most definitely being a spy merits her being on the list more than her dancing career. Makkool (talk) 15:56, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Iostn (talk) 18:04, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
Swap: Remove B. J. Penn and Chuck Liddell, add George Hackenschmidt
MMA is overrepresented with 15 athletes despite being a considerably younger sport than wrestling. MMA is skewed toward the recent UFC; all fifteen entries were born in the last 61 years and competed in the last 31. 40% of them are American males; of those, Penn and Liddell appear to be the least notable; having the fewest overall wins, fewest title wins, and fewest interwikis.
George Hackenschmidt was the first world heavyweight wrestling champion, and also invented the bench press pbp 13:47, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- pbp 14:51, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support Liddell and Hackenschmidt per nom. Neutral on Penn because he seems decently important. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:21, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Discussion
Add Kai Cenat
Proposing because a couple of editors preferred adding Cenat to Web entertainers and internet personalities in my proposal to add IShowSpeed.
- Support
- Oppose
- Discussion
Add Carl Woese
Helped define Archaea 3. Described on the ranks with Charles Darwin
3, Francis Crick
4, and James Watson
4. Helped revolutionize microbiology with 16S ribosomal RNA. 33 interwikis
- Support
- Oppose
- Discussion
Has proposed and defined many higher taxa such as Rhizaria 4, Excavata
4, Cryptomonad
4, Chromalveolata
4, Chromista
5, Euglenozoa
4, Bikont
5, Radiolaria
5, Cercozoa
5, Opisthokonta, and Viridiplantae. 28 interwikis
- Support
- Oppose
- Discussion
Add Armand Duplantis, possibly remove Renaud Lavillenie
He's only 24 but he has the last 9 world records in pole vault. Keep in mind that the 6 meter barrier in pole vault was considered an impossible feat until Sergey Bubka 4 finally broke it. A pole vault of 6 meters exactly would get you a gold at every single Olympics up to and including 2012. Duplantis' world record is 6.25m. This is a full 0.09 meters over the next best record (in a sport where <0.05 meters typically separates the best pole vaulters in competition). Even if Duplantis were to retire tomorrow, he would be VA5 material since he has already established himself as the greatest pole vaulter of all time.
If we must do a swap, I propose Renaud Lavillenie who held the world record before Duplantis. I personally do not want to remove him since he seems to be outclassed in every way by Duplantis. His only claim to fame was that he was the intermediate world record between Bubka and Duplantis but he only has 1 Olympic gold medal and 0 golds at the world championships. 3 male pole vaulters in VA5 may be a bit much and we definitely shouldn't be removing Sergey Bubka 4 who revolutionized the sport. Aurangzebra (talk) 03:44, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support
- as nom Aurangzebra (talk) 03:44, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- pbp 03:50, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:55, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Both. J947 ‡ edits 21:02, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support add, weak support remove. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:48, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Broke an world-record, is that it? Does not seem vital. The Blue Rider
16:42, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- He is the undisputed greatest pole vaulter of all time, he has the 9 best pole vault records of all time, he hasn't lost a pole vault competition in 5 years, and he has 2 Olympic and World golds. He is also only the 11th athlete ever to win gold at the youth, junior, and senior world championships. If you don't think that's sufficient for inclusion, then you'd have to remove half of the rest of the Athletics section too. I'm honestly not sure what else he can do at this point that would convince you to list him because he's done it all already. We list 91 Athletics athletes but even if we only listed the top 50, I believe he would merit a spot. It's also worth noting that we list Yelena Isinbayeva
5 who is his female counterpart (2 Olympic golds, 3 worlds, world record holder). Should we remove her too? Aurangzebra (talk) 17:23, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- He is the undisputed greatest pole vaulter of all time, he has the 9 best pole vault records of all time, he hasn't lost a pole vault competition in 5 years, and he has 2 Olympic and World golds. He is also only the 11th athlete ever to win gold at the youth, junior, and senior world championships. If you don't think that's sufficient for inclusion, then you'd have to remove half of the rest of the Athletics section too. I'm honestly not sure what else he can do at this point that would convince you to list him because he's done it all already. We list 91 Athletics athletes but even if we only listed the top 50, I believe he would merit a spot. It's also worth noting that we list Yelena Isinbayeva
- Discussion
FWIW, Lavillenie seems decidedly NOT VA5 to me. pbp 16:38, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yea, I change my mind and agree with you. If we included every athlete who had a world record at some point, we would have hundreds and that seems to be his only claim to fame. Aurangzebra (talk) 01:37, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- See also my "effect of Olympics" thread below. We may need to have a larger discussion about how many world records or medals get you on pbp 00:56, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Were Duplantis not such a massive outlier Lavillenie would stand out. J947 ‡ edits 06:03, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Remove Annie Edson Taylor
5
Pretty impressive for what she done, but I'm not sure if she's that vital to be listed. She just known for going over Niagara Falls, and her unfortunate life after that.
- Support
- Oppose
- Discussion
Effect of 2024 Olympics on VA5 sports
- Armand Duplantis is being proposed to be swapped in
- Katie Ledecky, Simone Biles, and several Team USA male and female basketball players already were listed
- Three other names I'd suggest are Emma McKeon, Léon Marchand and Sifan Hassan. McKeon is a swimmer with a ton of medals (one of seven Olympians in any sport at least fourteen, including six golds). Marchand was the breakout hometown hero of the past games, winning four golds. Hassan has six medals, including three golds, spanning four individual distances
pbp 19:31, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hassan yes, McKeon okay, Marchand not so sure, too early to say I think. starship.paint (RUN) 14:20, 16 August 2024 (UTC)