Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Michael Collins (astronaut)
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Michael Collins (astronaut)
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In the wake of Neil and Buzz, here is the third astronaut on the Apollo 11 mission, USAF Lieutenant Colonel Michael Collins. He comes from a notable family; his father, uncle, brother and daughter all have articles too. There was some hope of getting it through FAC by the time of the Apollo 11 mission in July 1969, but that is fading now, as time is running short. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:57, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
Lingzhi
- Inconsistent use of Publisher Location (24 with; 6 without). These appear to be Collins, Michael (1994); Marill, Alvin H. (October 11, 2010); Barbree, Jay (July 8, 2014); Bilstein, Roger E. (1980); Collins, Michael (2001);Hansen, James (2005).
- Many otheer rrors identified by script(s) at User:Lingzhi/reviewsourcecheckLingzhi2 (talk) 14:32, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
Comments by AustralianRupert
Support: G'day, Hawkeye and Kees, thanks for your efforts with this article. I have a few comments/suggestions: AustralianRupert (talk) 04:29, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
- in the lead, (Major General, USAF, Retired): is it necessary to capitalise "retired" here?
- What's the difference between that and "major general"? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:36, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
- No worries, works for me. (I've had push back when I suggest decaps for ranks, in the past for US bios, hence why I didn't raise it.) Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 10:17, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
- the duplicate link checker tool identifies following terms as overlinked: World War II, major general, Apollo 9, Apollo 10, state dinner, Presidential Medal of Freedom, Smithsonian Institution, Collins (crater)
- Going to keep the crater dup'ed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:36, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
- No worries. AustralianRupert (talk) 10:17, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
- Going to keep the crater dup'ed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:36, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
- awarded his wings on compilation of the course at Waco --> "awarded his wings on completion of the course at Waco"?
- where a wait of several hours ensued, as the base's flight surgeon had joined search parties looking for Collins: is this detail really necessary?
- Collins met Patricia Mary Finnegan from Boston, Massachusetts, his future wife, in an officers' mess: is there any information about where this took place or when (year for instance).
- In the officers' mess? You seem to be under the misapprehension that Collins regarded meeting his future wife as a more important event than winning a silver cup for aircraft gunnery. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:36, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
- I mean, the officers' mess at which base, if known. Was it Chaumont-Semoutiers, in France, in 1956? The wording currently doesn't seem clear, but maybe that's me. If not stated in the sources, no worries. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 10:17, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
- In the officers' mess? You seem to be under the misapprehension that Collins regarded meeting his future wife as a more important event than winning a silver cup for aircraft gunnery. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:36, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
- which is very similar to an MTD, except the students travel to him: the tense here seems a little awkward
- With the help of his time as a member of an MTD... --> "His posting to an MTD allowed Collins to acumulate over 1,500 hours of flying..."?
- "huge arc" and "fighter ops" seem a bit informal to my ear, is there a way to reword?
- of which 2,700 was in jet aircraft --> "were in" or "had been in"?
- David Scott on Gemini 8,[40] and Charles Bassett was assigned to Gemini 9 --> probably can drop the first names here as these people have already been introduced earlier
- same as above for commanded by Frank Borman
- to fly on space --> "fly in space"?
- at 0520 local time (and other examples) should have a colon per MOS:TIME
- behind the Agena target vehicle: remove the link here as the Agena has already been linked in the previous paragraph
- The duo continued with more: suggest spliting this sentence, also there appears to be a word missing early in the sentence
- kilometres --> "kilometers"
- and William Anders was assigned: already linked and introduced as Bill Anders
- flights with a LM --> " flights with an LM"? (Is it pronounced "el-m" or "lem"? If the former, then it should use "an", if the latter then "a LM" should be fine)
- Commander (CDR) Frank Borman: I don't think the abbreviation "CDR" is necessary here, or elsewhere. The single word commander is fine
- Staff meetings were always held on Fridays: is the first part of this paragraph necessary? I'd suggest trimming it to simply state that after the Apollo 1 fire resulted in the deaths of Grissom, White and Chaffee, Collins has tasked with the duty of informing Martha Chafee of her husband's death.
- were somewhat forced: not sure about this wording, suggest probably just saying "were sent" or something similar
- Collins would almost certainly been --> "Collins would almost certainly have been"?
- Corrected.
- realise --> "realize"?
- the infobox mentions he ceased active duty in the military in 1970, but I couldn't find this in the body. Is it mentioned somewhere? I assume it coincided with him becoming Assistant Secretary of State for Public Affairs?
- in the citations, "New York Times" (citation 122) and "Boston Globe" (citation 125) should probably be in italics; I think it is also meant to be "The New York Times"
- in the citations, "Military Times Hall Of Valor" --> "Military Times Hall of Valor"
- the external link checker reports a couple of dead links: [1]. Are there any archive versions that can be linked
- there are no dab links (no action required)
- the images lack alt text, which can be useful to some readers (suggestion only): [2]
Wehwalt
- "in which he and Command Pilot John Young performed two rendezvous with different spacecraft " I had never thought about the plural of rendezvous. Maybe avoid the issue " ... Young rendezvoused with two different spacecraft"
- "He unsuccessfully applied for the second astronaut group, but was accepted for the third group." I might cut the final word.
- "In 1980, he took the job as vice president of LTV Aerospace." I might say "" rather than "the".
- "He graduated on June 3, 1952, with a Bachelor of Science degree, finishing 185th out of 527 cadets in the class 1952, the same class as fellow astronaut Ed White.[3][11]" you probably want a "of" before the second use of "1952".
- "Compared with the first two groups of astronauts, the third group of fourteen astronauts of which Collins was part were younger, with an average age of 31" group would take a singular verb, I suppose, so "were" should be "was" (also later in sentence) Speaking of sentences, this one could use some splitting, possibly even into three parts.
- "Of the thirty astronauts selected in the first three groups, only Collins and his third group colleague William Anders were born outside the United States,[30][31] and Collins was the only one with an older brother; all the rest were the eldest or only sons in their families.[32]" Especially the first part, this seems trivial or possibly better in one of our articles as astronauts as a group.
- The final sentence of the first paragraph of Crew Assignments makes him sound a little petty.
- "Under the system of crew assignment," maybe call it crew rotation, and mention it was done by Slayton?
- "but stood up through the hatch with a device that resembled a sextant.[53]" you said that he erred with a sextant earlier, was this the same device?
- Good question. Kees08 may know. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:21, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
- I started to check, but the page numbers in my book (published in 2001) did not seem to match the page numbers in the article. Do they match a different version that you might own? I was hesitant to 'fix' them if the year just needs changed instead of the page number. I will look into this still. Kees08 (Talk) 03:31, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry, I meant Collins book Carrying the Fire. You have the 1994 edition right? The page numbers do not match my 2001 edition. Kees08 (Talk) 16:23, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
- No, I have the 2001 edition. The pages match exactly. But the stuff about the sextant is is Reichl. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:08, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
- I've corrected the reference page number. Let me know if there are any others that don't check out. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:41, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
- @Wehwalt: I know you already supported, but I found the issue and corrected it. He was using an ultraviolet camera. Thanks for pointing it out. Kees08 (Talk) 01:54, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
- @Hawkeye7: Sure, why don't I just ping everyone! I added a citation to On the Shoulders of Giants and I am not sure I did it right..is there a good way to use sfn and have a direct link to the page that is hosted on the internet? Kees08 (Talk) 02:09, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
- No, I have the 2001 edition. The pages match exactly. But the stuff about the sextant is is Reichl. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:08, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
- "The policy became that the CMP would be the next most senior member of the crew, and that they would go on to command later Apollo flights.[62]" I don't know that the rotation was policy, Slayton didn't explain stuff much. The CMPs on Apollos 8, 9 and 10 did go on to command their own missions. Maybe instead of policy, practice? Or maybe just omit as you go through all of this at some length during the description of Collins's training for Apollo 11. It was certainly policy that the CMP was second-highest ranking, though.
- " The astronauts' wives had accompanied them on the trip, and Collins and his wife Pat were compelled by NASA and their friends to travel to Metz where they had been married ten years before. There, they found a third wedding ceremony had been arranged for them (ten years previously they had already had civil and religious ceremonies).[64]" I don't quite understand this. Was this a renewal of vows or the space age equivalent of a shotgun wedding?
- " was designated commander of the cancelled Apollo 18 mission." was this ever made formal?
- ".[75][62][76]" just noting not in sequence.
- "An estimated one million spectators watched the launch of Apollo 11 from the highways and beaches vicinity of the launch site. " You probably need an "in the" before "vicinity".
- " Launch Complex 39" Why not narrow it to 39A?
- "About 30 minutes later, the transposition, docking, and extraction maneuver was performed: this involved separating Columbia from the spent S-IVB stage, turning around, and docking with Eagle." I would mention this was done by Collins, as I think I asked on the 11 article.
- I might mention what Collins was doing when Eagle landed, and when Armstrong stepped upon the Moon.
- "Though the chance of bringing back pathogens from the lunar surface was considered remote, it was still a possibility. " I might stress that that it wasn't possible, just considered one.
- I might say when the quarantine ended. More about Collins as individual on the return to Earth/reception etc. if possible.
- "and flown to the aircraft carrier USS Hornet,[92] where they spent the Earth-based portion of 21 days of quarantine.[93]" They spent the whole time in quarantine on the Hornet? That is the implication and of course we know they did not.
- "He worked in that role until April 11, 1971.[103] Carol Laise replaced him in October 1973.[104][105]" Even for government, that's a long time between incumbents. Was Laise simply the next person to have a position called that? And that raises the question, was Collins's job really necessary?
- While I find the information about the history of Air and Space interesting, is it really needed in the article on Collins?
- You are not consistent in date formatting between MDY and DMY.
- Marco Island really isn't in the Everglades as implied.
- As with Armstrong, I'm a bit grumpy about calling the awards and medals he collected along the way his legacy.
- I haven't been in a few years, I regret, even though I live less than 20 miles away. No point in going right now as you note.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:03, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
- Looks good generally.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:12, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
Image review
- As I recall seeing in one of the other articles you've done on astronauts, Nikki questioned the use of NASA logos and insignias, but I don't recall how this was settled - can you point me in the right direction?
- NASA logos, insignia and emblems are PD, but usage is restricted per U.S. law 14 CFR 1221 (link currently down due to US government shutdown). All I remember was a brief discussion at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/John Glenn/archive1. Even when an image is PD, there can still be restrictions on use for endorsements etc Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:46, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- It was a lengthier thread in an A-class review, if I'm remembering correctly, but I have no idea which one (and I don't have the inclination to dig for it) - in any event, if it was fine with Nikki, then it's ok by me. Parsecboy (talk) 21:59, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- I am at work, but there are two relevant threads now. I will post them after work and do the edit to the image page, if necessary. Ping me in 24 hours if I forget. Kees08 (Talk) 23:44, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- My discussion with Nikkimaria has more background, in the John Glenn A-class review. As stated there, due to NASA astronaut crew patches are also permitted on merchandise but in some instances, NASA may recommend that the names of astronauts be removed from the patches to avoid rights of privacy and publicity. from their merchandising guidelines, we should have some sort of warning. While doing an image review Wehwalt rightfully pointed out on File:Apollo 15 (15012200679).jpg that personality rights was close but not exactly what we wanted. He made a warning that covers the patch case better. Ideally it should be made into a template and applied to all the patches, but for now I have been copy and pasting it onto Commons pages. I will apply that warning to the aforementioned patch. Let me know if you would like more information or if you think my rationale is off. Thanks! Kees08 (Talk) 03:30, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
- It was a lengthier thread in an A-class review, if I'm remembering correctly, but I have no idea which one (and I don't have the inclination to dig for it) - in any event, if it was fine with Nikki, then it's ok by me. Parsecboy (talk) 21:59, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- NASA logos, insignia and emblems are PD, but usage is restricted per U.S. law 14 CFR 1221 (link currently down due to US government shutdown). All I remember was a brief discussion at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/John Glenn/archive1. Even when an image is PD, there can still be restrictions on use for endorsements etc Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:46, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- File:Gemini 10 prime crew (Young and Collins).jpg is there a source for this? Obviously this is a US government work, but I would suspect a source is still required
- Added a link to the source of File:Gemini 10 prime crew (Young and Collins).jpg which is with a collection of NASA Gemini 10 images at [3] Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:46, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
Parsecboy (talk) 17:54, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
Source review — pass
- Is the author-link to George W. Cullum correct? It seems unlikely that a Civil War general would still be around to publish a book in 1960.
- I've been waiting for years for someone to ask that question. Yes, that it him. He wrote the first three volumes of the book, and then they continued publishing updates every decade. He is listed as the author in the sources, bibliographies and library catalogues, so we follow suit, as the idea is to allow readers to locate the books for themselves, and that is how they are filed. Volumes up to volume IX are PD and available online. After that, responsibility was handed over the West Point Alumni Association, and they become very rare. I have a copy of volume X. Up until 1977, each member of a West Point class was listed in order of merit, and had a what is called a Cullum number. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:43, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- Formatting of sources is reasonably consistent.
- All sources look reliable. Use of primary sources is not excessive and well within WP:PRIMARY.
- The article seems comprehensive and I'm not seeing any major sources that were overlooked. buidhe 19:40, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
Support Comments by JennyOz
placeholder, part way through, expect to finish tonight or tomorrow JennyOz (talk) 04:49, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
Here's the gnome comments, suggestions:
- but since World War II started soon after he was unable - why? the opportunity did not arise?
- which also had the advantage - not clear
- finishing 185th out of 527 cadets - is "out" needed?
- the same class as fellow astronaut Ed White - 'later' before fellow?
- decision to join the United States Air Force - add (USAF)
- Collin's decision - move apostrophe ie Collins'
- accusations of nepotism - wlink nepostism
- his brother was already a colonel - refine wlink to Colonel (United States)
- San Marcos Air Force Base in Texas became Gary Air Force Base ie Camp Gary, better wlink ie rather than the regional airport?
- day fighter training - hyphen and wlink Day fighter
- were killed in accidents in the 22 weeks - swap second "in" to 'during'
- learned ground attack and nuclear weapons delivery techniques in - has own article ie Nuclear weapons delivery
- After Collins was reassigned to the United States - add year here because previous para reads as if kids were born o'seas but Kate's article says Boston.
- except that the students travelled to him - one L
- He successfully applied and reported on August 29, 1960 - not on same day? 'His application was successful and he reported on..' or similar tweak
- They were trained to be military test pilots. Instruction started - maybe colon not new sentence
- Collins used to smoke heavily - was a heavy smoker
- in the right-hand seat of - any appropriate wlink copilot/something officer?
- Linked to Right seat (cockpit)
- nicotine withdrawal - has own article, change wlink to nicotine withdrawal?
- The turning point for Collins in his decision to become an astronaut - had he been grappling with decision? if not, maybe 'the inspiration to become' or 'his decision to become an astronaut was inspired by...'
- He applied for the second group - swap "he" to Collins, (last subject was Glenn) and mention NASA?
- To raise the numbers of Air Force pilots selected, the Air Force sent their best applicants to a "charm school". - "the Air Force" maybe 'they' to avoid rep? (where else were candidates from, Navy?) Was charm school to polish their interview techniques?
- he found out he had not been accepted - 'was notified' or did he find out some other way?
- That year the USAF Experimental Flight Test Pilot School became the USAF Aerospace Research Pilot School (ARPS) - that page doesn't mention that new name
- Deke Slayton called and asked - explain Deke's role?
- interviews at the Manned Spacecraft Center - add (MSC) (because there is an MSC in a caption)
- in that same caption "Lunar Receiving Laboratory" wlink
- Compared with the first two groups of astronauts, the third group of fourteen astronauts - use NASA Astronaut Group 3 rather than non-obvious link in prev para?
- all the rest were the eldest or only sons in their families - explain relevance?
- course of the basics of spaceflight - 'on' the basics to avoid 2x of?
- eyes began to tear up - not emotional tears but eyes watering?
- had been fed into the astronauts' space suit - suits
- Collins thought it took much longer - just "thought" it did or 'found' it took
- micro-meteor v micrometeorite - and wlink one
- activated the retro rockets - wlink
- Not to be confused with retro rock Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:19, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
- extra-vehicular v extravehicular
- on their 43rd revolution splashed down - 'and' splashed down?
- Done
- Staff meetings were always held on Fridays - always is redundant?
- circum-lunar v circumlunar
- it was not certain this would be the lunar landing crew, depending - it would depend on
- Collins's training was completely - remove 2nd s (all other possessives are Collins')
- there were size measurements - "size" redundant?
- re-entering v reentry
- Removed hyphen. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:19, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
- just to name a few - ?
- Walter Weber - wlink Walter A. Weber
- in a National Geographic book - italics for NG or change link to National Geographic Society as publisher of the book?
- Collins told Slayton he did not want to fly again if Apollo 11 was successful. Slayton offered to get him back into the crew sequence after the flight - ?
- July 16, 1969, at 13:32UTC - space before UTC
- 9:32 EDT - 09
- Mission Control v mission control
- Lunar Module - v lunar module
- far side v dark side v back side
- Washington, DC v Washington, D.C.
- caption "The Milestones of Flight entrance hall of the National Air and Space Museum in Washington, DC." - frag, no full stop?
- duration was 195:18:35 - add hrs etc?
- On August 13 ... On the same evening ... This celebration was the beginning of a 38-day world tour" but then "the crew returned to the U.S. in November" which is much longer than 38 days?
- See Buzz Aldrin#World tour Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:19, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
- U.S. v US - check are intentional eg "returned to the U.S. in November," but "Under the US legislative system"
- He worked in that role until April 11, 1971.[108] Carol Laise replaced him in October 1973. - 'looks' like an error, reword to something like the position remained vacant until Carol Laise... (or just remove mention of her?)
- An exhibition of a moon rock - M
- Senator Barry Goldwater, a USAF general - former USAF general? (or they always called by rank even after retired?) and was USAFR not USAF?
- First of all, yes, generals are still called "general" after they retire. It's one of the perks of the job. But Goldwater remained in the reserves after active service in CBI during WWII. He retired as a major general on 1 January 1969 (I had to look it up), so I have described him as a "retired USAF major general". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 07:03, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
- Colins lobbied hard - double L
- aimed to harmonized the new museum - harmonize
- were faced faced with Tennessee marble - remove faced
- Tennessee marble - wlink
- Ground was broken on the new museum - add site?
- oversee the creation the exhibits - of
- Center for Earth and Planetary Studies - wlink
- National Aviation Hall of Fame - wlink
- rest of the Apollo 11 crew, was awarded - he
- Vice President Spiro Agnew - wlink
- Iven C. Kincheloe Award - wlink
- President Bill Clinton - wlink
- group Jethro Tull has a song - swap "has" for recorded or wrote
- No Rain, No Rose - wlink
- Collins's statement on the 40th - remove 2nd s
- Collins, Michael (1994). Flying to the Moon: An Astronaut's Story. Sunburst - colon before publisher
- moved on to the Apollo program.[44][41] - ref order
That's all folks. Another bites the dust, only he didn't. (I recorded a doco on Armstrong recently, yet to finish but found it very interesting that his brother asked him (before they launched) what was the one thing he was most unsure of and Neil said 'how deep is that dust'. JennyOz (talk) 08:57, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- Before launch, the astronauts wrote letters to their wives and children to be given to them if they did not return. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:19, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
@JennyOz: I believe we are ready for you to see if we satisfied all your requests. Thanks for taking the time to thoroughly review! Kees08 (Talk) 07:07, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you Hawkeye and Kees. That was great watching you both so ably dealing with my comments today. Thanks especially for the explanations (and giggles). I've added 2 tiny replies above but neither are a concern so am also signing my support. Great job! JennyOz (talk) 07:58, 29 January 2019 (UTC)