Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Kansas City Chiefs first-round draft picks/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by PresN via FACBot (talk) 00:25, 23 May 2024 (UTC) [1].[reply]

List of Kansas City Chiefs first-round draft picks

List of Kansas City Chiefs first-round draft picks (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Hey man im josh (talk) 12:04, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This list is nomination #10 for me in the series and, hopefully, will end up being #30 in the series to be promoted. Only two more nominations after this one and the 32-team series of first-round draft picks will be complete! This nomination's format matches that of other AFL team lists I've helped to promote, Buffalo Bills, New England Patriots, and Tennessee Titans. As always, I will do my best to response quickly to address any and all concerns that are brought up. Hey man im josh (talk)

Pseud 14

Image review: Passed

Done. Thank you for the review and helpful feedback @Pseud 14! Hey man im josh (talk) 14:47, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Source review

Footnotes:

  • Second use of "sixth-" in Footnote R is missing a hyphen.
  • Footnote X ends with a double period ("Jr.."), I think only one is necessary but couldn't find it in the MOS. Update: found it at MOS:CONSECUTIVE.
  • Footnote D may have a factual error. Source 44 says that the pick "turned out to be Mo Moorman", but the table lists Moorman as the Chiefs' own pick and George Daney as the pick traded from the Oilers. Either the source is wrong (in which case another source is needed to prove it) or the table is wrong.
  • Footnote I, for the 1984 draft, incorrectly implies that the 5th overall pick (Bill Maas) was traded from the Rams – it should be in the row below for John Alt. The newspaper source (54) says that the 21st overall pick (John Alt) was the one traded. This is correctly written in the footnote, it is simply in the wrong row.
  • Footnote F, the NFL source (49) states that the Chiefs got Matuszak and a third-round pick. The NYT source (48) makes no mention of the third-round pick. Pro Football Reference confirms that Kansas had two third-round picks in 1976 [2]. I'm assuming that the NYT article made an erroneous omission – I suggest moving source 49 ahead of 48, and possible removing source 48 entirely. The NFL page cites the Associated Press, perhaps you can find an AP article floating around somewhere to replace the NYT article.
  • Footnotes S and Z have other footnotes in them. I think this is okay, I just find it hilarious.

Other prose:

  • "1970 AFL–NFL merger" is not great (MOS:SEAOFBLUE). I am not sure that the season link is necessary here, since you're only discussing the merger, so I suggest removing it. If you prefer, you can try rewording it to separate the two links.
  • Clarifying the common draft: I think it would be helpful to readers to specify in which years the "common draft" took place. Currently, the article said this took place "As part of the merger agreement on June 8, 1966", which is a little confusing. They actually took place every year for three years, from 1967 to 1969. (This is in the sources already cited, plus a little bit of WP:CALC).
  • Last lead paragraph: The jump from "did not draft a player" to "Four of the team's first-round picks" was a little jarring – I was expecting an explanation on why they didn't draft a player in the first round nine times. (I'm assuming they traded their picks to other teams?) Also, when Sayers is mentioned for the second time, only his last name is necessary. Technically the same goes for Buchanan, but since the two mentions are in different paragraphs I don't mind using his full name again.

Sources:

  • Sources 19 and 20 are OK. Source 18 should probably use cite web or cite news instead of cite magazine – I couldn't find any indication that it was actually published in the magazine, and it's written "By B. Duane Cross, CNNSI.com". This is a very minor change, but it makes all the difference in the visual editor.
  • Sources 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 are OK. They do indeed back up everything in the image caption (finding where in the database it shows that he became starting QB in 2018 was a pain, but it's there).
  • Source 23 is OK. Since it covers most of the table, I checked some entries at random, found no issues.
  • Verified Source 25.
  • Source 45 should be titled "The 1968 NFL Draft" or "The 1968 NFL Draft Picks", not "68".
  • Source 53, 54, 66, 70 are OK and factually verified. 66 is representative of a slew of similar ones.
  • Source 49 verified. See Footnote F above for concern about source 48.
  • Source 28 doesn't explicitly say that Gale Sayers was drafted by the Chiefs but signed for the Bears instead. Is it possible to find a source that explicitly says this in a sentence? I don't think combining information from two tables (sources 23 and 28) is unreasonable SYNTH but it would be nice to have this one clarified. Update: Source 26 says this explicitly, I suggest citing it in Sayers's row in the table.
  • Source 30 is OK. Thank you for archiving it!
  • Sources 50 and 51 are OK. I am impressed by the level of digging and (permissible) SYNTH it took to put together these footnotes – the words "No. 38 overall" require both sources and some addition to deduce.
  • Sources 26 and 27 verified. 27 could be retitled "Kansas City Chiefs: Team Greats" for specificity. This has to be deduced from the URL though, so maybe it isn't a good idea.

Table:

  • Space before dagger: I think the dagger symbol should be separated from player names by a space to improve readability. Most milhist articles do this in their infoboxes. A counterargument might be that the asterisk doesn't need a space before it, and putting a space before one symbol and not the other might make it inconsistent. Maybe add spaces before both symbols?
  • Double dagger in key is unused: the ‡ is in the table key but is never used. I'm pretty sure it should be next to Buck Buchanan's name in the table.

Toadspike (talk) 22:00, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm taking a break, I think this is enough for tonight. I think I'm about halfway through, I'll come back and finish up tomorrow. Toadspike (talk) 23:45, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Hey man im josh I've completed my source review, please ping me once you've addressed all my concerns (or once you've explained why they're silly), or if you have questions. My largest lasting concern is making sure that the traded picks in the "Notes" column are listed next to the correct players. Reading my comments above, I found three such errors in the footnotes. You may want to check the few I haven't, especially the older ones not cited to Pro Football Reference (1993 and earlier). Toadspike (talk) 11:08, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Footnotes:
  • Second use of "sixth-" in Footnote R is missing a hyphen. – Fixed.
  • Footnote X ends with a double period ("Jr.."), I think only one is necessary but couldn't find it in the MOS. Update: found it at MOS:CONSECUTIVE. – Fixed, noted for future reference.
  • Footnote D may have a factual error. Source 44 says that the pick "turned out to be Mo Moorman", but the table lists Moorman as the Chiefs' own pick and George Daney as the pick traded from the Oilers. Either the source is wrong (in which case another source is needed to prove it) or the table is wrong. – Blech. These situations come up way more often than I like where teams credit the wrong pick of a round. I've replaced that reference with one that does not explicitly call out that the pick turned out to be Mo Moorman.
  • Footnote I, for the 1984 draft, incorrectly implies that the 5th overall pick (Bill Maas) was traded from the Rams – it should be in the row below for John Alt. The newspaper source (54) says that the 21st overall pick (John Alt) was the one traded. This is correctly written in the footnote, it is simply in the wrong row. – Fixed.
  • Footnote F, the NFL source (49) states that the Chiefs got Matuszak and a third-round pick. The NYT source (48) makes no mention of the third-round pick. Pro Football Reference confirms that Kansas had two third-round picks in 1976 [3]. I'm assuming that the NYT article made an erroneous omission – I suggest moving source 49 ahead of 48, and possible removing source 48 entirely. The NFL page cites the Associated Press, perhaps you can find an AP article floating around somewhere to replace the NYT article. – Unfortunately, publications of the past had a tendency to focus and value only the first, and sometimes second, round selections, so I often see relevant but smaller details left out of RS. That's a big part of what's made some of these lists difficult. My understand is the the NFL page actually is not citing the Associated Press, but instead giving them credit for the image. Never the less, I agree the NYT's exclusion is an issue, and I've replaced that source.
  • Footnotes S and Z have other footnotes in them. I think this is okay, I just find it hilarious. – I'm glad you found it amusing! I felt it the best way to consistently point towards the relevant trades when necessary.
Other prose:
  • "1970 AFL–NFL merger" is not great (MOS:SEAOFBLUE). I am not sure that the season link is necessary here, since you're only discussing the merger, so I suggest removing it. If you prefer, you can try rewording it to separate the two links. – Reworded to "The Chiefs joined the NFL prior to the 1970 season as a result of the AFL–NFL merger."
  • Clarifying the common draft: I think it would be helpful to readers to specify in which years the "common draft" took place. Currently, the article said this took place "As part of the merger agreement on June 8, 1966", which is a little confusing. They actually took place every year for three years, from 1967 to 1969. (This is in the sources already cited, plus a little bit of WP:CALC). – Hm. It just occurred to me, Common draft is not entirely accurate... The "common draft era" refers to anything from the 1967 onwards and is more of an informal name for "NFL draft" now. I've brought this up at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_National_Football_League#"Common_draft_era". I won't bombard you with the sources that state this here, but this misunderstanding seems mostly related to the state of common draft as opposed to the text that the lead has written. Any thoughts on this with the clarification?
  • Last lead paragraph: The jump from "did not draft a player" to "Four of the team's first-round picks" was a little jarring – I was expecting an explanation on why they didn't draft a player in the first round nine times. (I'm assuming they traded their picks to other teams?) Also, when Sayers is mentioned for the second time, only his last name is necessary. Technically the same goes for Buchanan, but since the two mentions are in different paragraphs I don't mind using his full name again. – I think the pivot from "did not draft" to "four of the team's first-round picks" isn't bad, but I'm open to suggestions. I think/hope the table speaks for itself in that aspect. I think it'd be difficult to summarize the reasons for this in the lead and that trying to do so would bloat it in a way that would make the article worse. Again though, I'm open to suggestions. Good catch on Sayers, second mention is now just "Sayers". I'd prefer to keep the unlinked full name for Buck Buchanan in the second paragraph, I think it's contextually an improvement over just listing the last name in this case.
Sources:
  • Sources 19 and 20 are OK. Source 18 should probably use cite web or cite news instead of cite magazine – I couldn't find any indication that it was actually published in the magazine, and it's written "By B. Duane Cross, CNNSI.com". This is a very minor change, but it makes all the difference in the visual editor. – The standard, for whatever reason, is to cite Sports Illustrated as a magazine. If I swap it to anything else then Citation Bot would eventually switch it back. See here where it changed it to magazine (as it has across all my featured list nominations). With that said, you did make me realize/become aware of CNN/SI, which I've now changed the publisher to. Fun note, that wasn't automatically changed to magazine by Citation Bot, so that's neat.
  • Sources 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 are OK. They do indeed back up everything in the image caption (finding where in the database it shows that he became starting QB in 2018 was a pain, but it's there). – I think it's a matter of familiarity with the sources. I do agree that, on first look, it can be difficult for people unfamiliar with the site to grasp it, but it does verify it.
  • Source 45 should be titled "The 1968 NFL Draft" or "The 1968 NFL Draft Picks", not "68". – I feel mixed about this. The page title is just two digits, and I don't really love to editorialize titles to the subtitles.
  • Source 49 verified. See Footnote F above for concern about source 48. – Addressed above.
  • Source 28 doesn't explicitly say that Gale Sayers was drafted by the Chiefs but signed for the Bears instead. Is it possible to find a source that explicitly says this in a sentence? I don't think combining information from two tables (sources 23 and 28) is unreasonable SYNTH but it would be nice to have this one clarified. Update: Source 26 says this explicitly, I suggest citing it in Sayers's row in the table. – Source 28 does say he was drafted by both teams, to the same degree that 26 does, but unfortunately it's one of those things tucked away in a tab lower down in the page. I did however just find a better source that I've since added which is more explicit in stating this fact.
  • Sources 50 and 51 are OK. I am impressed by the level of digging and (permissible) SYNTH it took to put together these footnotes – the words "No. 38 overall" require both sources and some addition to deduce. – Thank you! This feels like how I had to do way too many trades! I wish more sources explicitly stated the pick numbers (and were correct when doing so). Thank goodness for "from Kansas City" lol.
  • Sources 26 and 27 verified. 27 could be retitled "Kansas City Chiefs: Team Greats" for specificity. This has to be deduced from the URL though, so maybe it isn't a good idea. – Yeah, I try to avoid editorializing titles whenever possible.
Really there was only one instance where the note was in the wrong place, which I'm quite grateful you caught. Thank you very much for the thorough review, I hope I've addressed all of your concerns. Hey man im josh (talk) 17:17, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Footnotes:  Resolved
Other prose:
  • Adjacent links  Resolved
  • Common draft: Thanks for the explanation. My revised suggestion adding the word 'began':
As part of the merger agreement on June 8, 1966, the two leagues began holding a multiple round "common draft".
This small change should make the situation clear enough and technically correct.
  • Last lead paragraph: I now agree that more prose isn't needed here. Sayers' name has been corrected.  Resolved
Sources:
  • Editorializing titles: Source 27 can be left as-is. However, I still think source 45 should be retitled "The 1968 NFL Draft", which is a huge heading at the top of the webpage. I don't think it's editorializing to use that as the title. "68" seems to just be some sort of web parameter.
  • Otherwise  Resolved
Table:
  • Have you had a chance to look at this section yet? There is one minor formatting change (really up to you whether you choose to add a space or not), and the wrong symbol next to Buck Buchanan's name (should be ‡, not †).
Incorrect note: I goofed in summarizing my own comments, this is now  Resolved
Toadspike (talk) 19:35, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry @Toadspike, I actually missed the table when I copy and pasted your feedback. I've fixed the symbol next to Buck Buchanan's name, that was definitely an error to use † instead of ‡. As for the spacing, I've personally always felt that the symbol right next to the name was preferable over the space, though I understand it's a preference kind of thing. It's something I'll mull over and maybe come back and do in the future, but for the time being, I don't think it's an improvement.
  • As part of the merger agreement on June 8, 1966, the two leagues began holding a multiple round "common draft". – I've made this change and applied it across all of the lists I've worked on for first-round picks.
  • Editorializing titles: Source 27 can be left as-is. However, I still think source 45 should be retitled "The 1968 NFL Draft", which is a huge heading at the top of the webpage. I don't think it's editorializing to use that as the title. "68" seems to just be some sort of web parameter. – I don't looove it, but I get it. I went ahead and changed it.
I hope that I've now addressed everything @Toadspike. Hey man im josh (talk) 19:48, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perfect, thank you for the very quick response. All of my concerns have been addressed, source review passed. I support this FLC. Toadspike (talk) 19:51, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Promoting. --PresN 16:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{featured list candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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