Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Houston Texans Pro Bowl selections/archive2

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Giants2008 21:15, 11 January 2013 [1].

List of Houston Texans Pro Bowl selections

Nominator(s): Buggie111 (talk) 17:44, 11 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I could go in depth about how the Texans are going to be the best team of the 2010's and such, but all I'll say is that, after what felt like an eternity of adjustments to address points made during the first FLC, I finally think this List meets the FL criteria. But that's your decision. Buggie111 (talk) 17:44, 11 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 08:29, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Quick comments

Is there a link for "all-star game"?
Added.
"invited 5 times" five.
Done. Buggie111 (talk) 13:44, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"suffered back in Week 2" not sure this information is useful. If you think it is, what is "Week 2"?
Removed Buggie111 (talk) 13:44, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"[1],[2][3]" please place refs appropriately, i.e. after punctuation.
Done. Buggie111 (talk) 13:31, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"have all been once." reads odd, perhaps "have all been selected once" or something just to make it grammatically correct and varied.
Fixed. Buggie111 (talk) 13:31, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Stop repeating players first names if using their surnames only is unambiguous.
So I'd have A. Johnson in the list, or just Johnson? Buggie111 (talk) 13:31, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The latter. The Rambling Man (talk)
It looks horrible, but done. Can I just put a (#) after the name, like in Super Bowl Most Valuable Player Award? Buggie111 (talk) 23:10, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No, I didn't mean in the table, I meant in the lead. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:34, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Changed. Buggie111 (talk) 01:11, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Don't relink names in the lead.
Done. Buggie111 (talk) 13:31, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Where are the asterisks?
What asterisks? I don't see any in List of tallest buildings in Boston. Buggie111 (talk) 13:31, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Per your key where you say "Selected in the first round of the NFL Draft." and use green and and asterisk, you don't use the asterisk in the table. And that key doesn't need a full stop. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:22, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Removed asterisk symbol from key.
Add it back and add it to the table for WP:ACCESS. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:34, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. Buggie111 (talk) 01:11, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Link all linkable items every time in a sortable table.
So: player's name, each type of statistic, that year's Pro Bowl?
As I said, anything you link in the table should be linked every time. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:22, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Instead of no image, perhaps just put a centrally-aligned en-dash.
Done.Buggie111 (talk) 13:44, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"103 receptions,[a][16]1,147 " space after the ref before the text, probably worth losing the comma in 1,147 as it looks odd and isn't obligatory.
Done. Buggie111 (talk) 13:31, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm no US football expert so I don't really know what a "sack" or a "forced fumble" is. Are there any decent links we can use?
Linking to respective articles. Buggie111 (talk) 13:31, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Have linked to all articles, except when "Fumble recovery" and forced fumble" are in the same sentence (there I just linked to Fumble) and when tackles and solo tackles are in the same sentence (where I just linked to tackle, once). Buggie111 (talk) 23:10, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Rambling Man (talk) 08:30, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from TBrandley (talk) 01:57, 20 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Any more information for the lede?
That would just be trivia like first white player, first offensive player, most amount of defensive players, msot amount of offensive players, nothing really notable. Might be able to add some franchise history, but unsure where to insert it. Buggie111 (talk) 23:16, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"the National Football League" add "(NFL)" to the end per WP:ACRO
Done. Buggie111 (talk) 23:16, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Words like "so far" shouldn't be used per WP:RELTIME, just remove
Done. Buggie111 (talk) 23:16, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"2009 NFL Season" season shouldn't be in capitals, as per WP:CAPS
Done. Buggie111 (talk) 23:16, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"other time" to "more time"
Done. Buggie111 (talk) 23:16, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Would suggest adding "totaling to two" or something at the end of that last sentence
Done. Buggie111 (talk) 23:16, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Check for your consistency on writing numbers out fully or not, see WP:MOSNUM and stick to one format
"Pro Bowl Selections" another WP:CAPS issue, selections shouldn't be in capitals
Done. Buggie111 (talk) 23:16, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The key table doesn't meet WP:DTT, add a table caption to ensure it does
Done. Buggie111 (talk) 23:16, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Same goes for the players table per WP:DTT
Done. Buggie111 (talk) 23:16, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Where are the asterisks that are seen in that little key
Done. Buggie111 (talk) 23:16, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Table doesn't meet WP:ACCESS, add scope rows to ensure it does (scope cols are already there). Scope row should be added to the main parameter of the table, inside the actual table for all them. Hard to explain, scope row should be added to the player parameter
Weh? Could you do that, please? Buggie111 (talk) 23:16, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Done, per my talk page as well. TBr and ley 01:57, 20 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The "–" en-dash in the table should be an — em-dash instead, per WP:DASH
Done. Buggie111 (talk) 00:28, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:MOSNUM, there should be a non-breaking space -   between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 617 yards, use 617 yards, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 617 yards
Done. Buggie111 (talk) 01:05, 19 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Most reference titles and such are incorrect, "aolnews.com" should be "AOL News"; "NFL.com" should be just "NFL"; "The Honolulu Advertiser" should be in italics per WP:MOS, newspapers should be; "CBSSports.com" should be just "CBS Sports"; "ESPN.com" should just be "ESPN".
Done. Buggie111 (talk) 00:28, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Numerous references are missing authors and original publish dates, like the The Honolulu Advertiser, it is missing the author, and the title is even incorrect; AOL News source is missing original publish date. It is understandable if it is not said on the source, but in this case those two certainly are. Please check all of them.
Authors are done. Pub. dates will be looked at. Buggie111 (talk) 00:34, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Another problem with references, as per WP:STRONGNAT, in this case, the dmy date format shouldn't be used, as it isn't the most commonly used in the United States, the main country related to the article; mdy date format should be used instead
Dates fixed. Buggie111 (talk) 02:21, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Any external links?
Nope, not really. Buggie111 (talk) 23:16, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

TBr and ley 17:37, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Giants2008 (Talk) 20:04, 2 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

*Comment – I see a hyphen that should be a dash after the third word of the lead, a "have all been once" that doesn't clarify what the players have been, and a further "He has since been one more time" that also doesn't have a subject. Despite the preparation that has gone into the list, I'm still not convinced that it's ready for the star. Giants2008 (Talk) 22:10, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

All the items you have stated are done. Anything else that is holding you back? Buggie111 (talk) 01:05, 19 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The last one still has "since been" without saying what Foster has been. Also, I see formatting issues in the color for Andre Johnson's 2011 entry, notes that need citations, and I'm not sure why the notes are not in the order that they are used in the article. Still some issues to sort out, I'm afraid. Giants2008 (Talk) 00:05, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
All have been fixed, except citing the 1938-1942 all star games. The Pro Bowl article doesn't have a cite for that, and I can't find any elsewhere except mentions of an all-star and champions team in news reports of each of the games, don't know if that counts. Buggie111 (talk) 01:11, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
AJ's color also hasn't been fixed, I can't see a problem. Buggie111 (talk) 14:20, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There must not have been one after all. A reference to a report for each All-Star game should be enough to verify that note, if you can't find something that covers the statement in general. Also, I'm not comfortable with leaving the "Led the league" note unsourced, since nothing in the table verifies that the given player led the league in the statistic. Giants2008 (Talk) 20:03, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I thought I put refs in. For example, Mathis's TD record is ref'd by cite #15. I'll go and start finding the all-star refs. Buggie111 (talk) 22:38, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I lost my original 1942 game summary ref, but I've found a replacement ref (get it?). Hope it works for you. Buggie111 (talk) 01:54, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My comments are now capped, but I hope others will offer input here to reassure me that this meets FL standards. Oh, and ref 29 needs a publisher. Giants2008 (Talk) 20:04, 2 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Harrias ^talk

I don't like the collection of references in the lead for Johnson's appearances: try compressing them into one note, like I did at Herbie Hewett#Notes and references.
Slightly confused as to how I'd word it, but will do. Buggie111 (talk) 17:40, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The player column should sort by surname, not forename.
Please help with that, I don't know how to fix that. Buggie111 (talk) 17:40, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Why aren't center and cornerback linked in the position column, and the 2011 instance of halfback?
No explanation of the difference between starter, reserve and alternate is given.
The second-half first paragraph appears to do little more than list all the players in the list below, which seems redundant. I appreciate the point of mentioning that Johnson has been invited five times, but to list everyone seems like overkill.
"Foster has since been selected one more time, totaling two selections." This sentence jars a little for me: the reader can work out that one selection, plus one selection, makes two selections.
In general the prose just doesn't really do much in my opinion. It doesn't really provide much "editorial comment" on the list below, it simply reiterates the information.
In the table, the statistics list "xx yards", but to a layperson (like me) that means nothing. Some explanation needs to be provided.
Confused as to what I"d write. Buggie111 (talk) 17:40, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Chris Myers statistics seem very bare: do centers not really do anything? Also, why does this cell use capital letters, unlike the rest of the column?
Centers (as well as tackles/guards) sometimes have blocking statistics recorded, but that's subject to the statistician's definition of a "block" and weren't used on either ESPN or NFL.com. Buggie111 (talk) 17:40, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Also, the distinction between tackles and solo tackles seems odd to a layperson: is tackling normally done as a group?
Tackles can be done as a group (two people coming from either side of a player) or by one player (one person charging head on). The same applies to sacks (half a sack is when two people sack the quarterback at the same time).
I don't really understand what a "sack" is from the article linked to (which isn't your problem) but I'm just wondering how someone can have half a "sack"?
See the tackles point above. Buggie111 (talk) 17:40, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
2006 Jerome Mathis column doesn't have a comma in a four digit number for yards.
Refs #10, #11, #34, #35 use a different date format to the rest. Harrias ^talk 16:57, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Buggie111 (talk) 22:30, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've addressed the majority of your concerns. The end of the sentence regarding Foster was suggested by TBrandley in their sixth comment, so some consensus regarding that should be reached here (I'm in favor of removing). The lede length was a main concern at the previous FLC, where, despite having information from both the Houston Texans and Pro Bowl article (which I rather foolishly simply duplicated onto the list disregarding copyvio rules), both reviewers opposed based on length. I received some help about the lede from Giants2008 in October (see this), so it's probably goign to be discussed here. I'd also like some help regarding the surname sorting. Buggie111 (talk) 22:30, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I was pinged for a return visit on my talk page, but it is unclear why. If the reason was the surname sorting, I suggest taking a look at current candidate Euroscar, which has proper sorting, and seeing how that list formats things. It's not that hard to fix once you know what to do. Giants2008 (Talk) 22:07, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's the lead, my friend. Buggie111 (talk) 22:57, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In that case, I'm not sure how much help I can be. I do see Harrias' point about the lead being a little plain. Is there anything that could be added saying why the players were selected, or any unique aspects about their Pro Bowl performances? There's a place for first/most recent/most frequent selections, but perhaps some details on those aspects would help to address Harrias' concern. Giants2008 (Talk) 18:39, 12 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Meh, not really. Just the amounts of yards/TDs/FF's/INT's they recorded for the most part, except Leach and Myers. Buggie111 (talk) 15:50, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've added in sortname, but can't seem to get Smith to link to the DE or for the sort options to appear in the table header. Buggie111 (talk) 16:01, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For the first issue, pipe the full name of the article after the first and last names. It will look like this: Antonio|Smith|Antonio Smith (defensive end). Giants2008 (Talk) 00:05, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Will do. Buggie111 (talk) 00:07, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'll be out of town during the announcement of the 2013 Pro Bowlers, which means I'll only be able to add in info come the 1st. Buggie111 (talk) 00:55, 24 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, over a month after my initial comments, and the prose section is still very bland. Criteria 2 requires: "Lead. It has an engaging lead that introduces the subject and defines the scope and inclusion criteria." Harrias ^talk 21:47, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

For Brain Hoyer's sake, there's nothing much to add to it. Dpo you have any ideas? All the football related FL's (see List of Baltimore Ravens first-round picks) have about as detailed of a lead as this one, some focusing even more on the draft than the team. Buggie111 (talk) 21:54, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have any major suggestions for what to add to it, no. But just as some articles don't have enough content to ever reach Featured article status, there are lists in the same situation. Not everything can be a Featured list, and if there isn't information that provides an engaging lead, then perhaps this is such a case. Harrias ^talk 22:22, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from NapHit (talk) 13:06, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

'Comments

"have been invented twice each" -> "have all been invited twice
I would give the year Cushing skipped the Pro Bowl to provide some context, as season could mean any
change came to were in the first sentence of the second para
"These were two players acquired in the 2002 NFL Expansion Draft, Walker and Glenn" -> They were Walker and Glenn, who were acquired during the 2002 NFL Expansion Draft.
"Foster has since been selected one more time, totaling two selections." I'm not sure you need this sentence as you've already stated he has gone to the pro Bowl twice
"...only Texans quarterback to be selected to the Pro Bowl" to the Pro Bowl should be for the Pro Bowl
ref 34 is the Houston Chronicle a printed publication? If so it should be in italics. You also need to add the publication date

NapHit (talk) 09:00, 25 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Buggie111 (talk) 00:07, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support meets the criteria. NapHit (talk) 13:06, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.