Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/St. Johns River/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 18:51, 3 November 2009 [1].

St. Johns River

Nominator(s): Moni3 (talk) 16:35, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Featured article candidates/St. Johns River/archive1

This one's a bit longer than my previous FAC, so apologies, but I hope the writing compels you to read it all the way through. I don't know how it's possible, but a million people a day cross this river and completely ignore it. Here's hoping this article might change that...silly me. Note: I read WP:ALT on providing alt text for galleries, and I'm not quite sure how to replace the gallery with the div tags and still have the title. Please note for alt text that the top two images are at Template:St. Johns River geobox but it does not show with the alt checker tool. Enjoy, and thank you for reading it. Moni3 (talk) 16:35, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Looks good at first glance. Naturally, I checked the Rainfall and climate section first, which is equally good. I just had one comment: "Tropical storms and nor'easters are common occurrences along the Atlantic coast of Florida" – this appears to be attributed to the document about TS Fay's rainfall (which doesn't fully support it, as far as I can tell), and to my understanding, nor'easters aren't called nor'easters until they emerge around the Outer Banks of North Carolina. Could you get a more specific source for this bit? –Juliancolton | ^Talk 18:57, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Do you think it really needs a cite? --Moni3 (talk) 19:02, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Normally I wouldn't, but since I'm not sure if this information is entirely accurate, I think a source would be good to have. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 19:12, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just struggling to cite something that's so obvious. I don't understand the relation to the Outer Banks and nor'easters per your definition. I'm somewhat inclined to ask you for a citation on that. I found an article (Beach Erosion Potential for Severe Nor'easters Beach Erosion Potential for Severe Nor'easters Keqi Zhang, Bruce C. Douglas, Stephen P. Leatherman Journal of Coastal Research, Vol. 17, No. 2 (Spring, 2001), pp. 309-321) that provides a formula for predicting beach erosion from nor'easters in Florida so they're common enough to warrant a formula. A second article (DOLAN, R. and DAVIS, R.E., 1992. An intensity scale for Atlantic northeast storms. Journal of Coastal Research, 8(4), 840–853.)) discusses all Atlantic storms, mentioning: "A second track commonly associated with strong northeasters ("Florida Low") develops near the Florida peninsula and travels north-northeast (Figure 6). These systems are common in March, coincident with an early spring extratropical cyclone maximum (KLEIN, 1957)." Plus, I've been through twice as many nor'easters as I have hurricanes, including the 1993 Storm of the Century that blew the shingles off the roof I was living in, and another unfortunate incident where I was unlucky enough to be on the beach for as briefly as possible. I know my experiences are OR, but...I didn't think this needed a cite. --Moni3 (talk) 20:22, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The storms labeled as "nor'easters" in Florida are often merely the precursors to the nor'easters. In fact, the 1993 storm's effects in Florida were limited to that of a squall line, if I recall correctly. I'd just like to see a reliable source added to the article that says developed nor'easters are present in the state, and you seem to have uncovered quite a few. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 20:56, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Image review all of the many images are appropriate and have satisfactory copyright licences. All except in the gallery have alt text (I tweaked a couple). Can the gallery images have alt text if that's possible? Needs only to be very simple eg "large white bird". Also, several alt text have US-only measurements (miles, feet inches) without the metric equivalents. I'll do a full review later if I get time, it looks very good at first glance Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:52, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Text comments Well written by an experienced FA author, but inevitably a few nitpicks (incidentally, I've birded from a bridge over this river)

• please see if you're happy with these changes
• elevation drop - reads oddly to a Brit, what about a drop in elevation ? Or altitude?
• At a shallow 9 square miles (23 km2), - I'd expect a depth to follow the opening words, not an area, can this be written more clearly?
• during alligator mating season the grunts of bulls join in - um - to me it should be the bulls joining in, not the grunts
• bird species' capitalisation is inconsistent between text and gallery
• St. Johns muck Apostrophe somewhere?
• US gallons but U.S. is this correct?
• Several smaller locations along the river sprung up - sprang?
• over a million in population - a population of more than a million?
• The majority of rivers in the Northern Hemisphere tend to flow south towards the equator, probably caused by the force of the earth's rotation. - I don't think this is true, the great rivers of Russia all flow north, and a relatively small river in Florida seems a less notable exception. Is Rivers of North America a reliable source for the whole of the hemisphere? Might be better to change the "northern hemisphere" to "North America"?
• Acidic properties of rainwater erode portions of the limestone that can form underground caverns. - clunky, what about Acidic rainwater erodes the limestone and can form underground caverns?
• Undeveloped land sold well and draining to reclaim wetlands has often gone unchecked, and instead encouraged by government. perhaps Undeveloped land sold well and draining to reclaim wetlands has often gone unchecked, and often encouraged by government.

Good luck (: Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:55, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review, Jimfbleak. I think I've taken care of most of your points. The US Gal is from the convert template, so let me see if they have a U.S. Gal or something similar. As for the northern-flowing river, that fact has been challenged on the talk page, here. It is supported by what appear to be two very good, scholarly sources. These sources do not discuss all rivers in the Northern Hemisphere. I am unable to use them to discuss why rivers in the Northern Hemisphere flow the way they do, just the St. Johns. Let me know if you have suggestions of others I should check out. Thanks for the time you took to read and comment on the article. --Moni3 (talk) 17:15, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've struck most, I'm happy with the northward river explanation. I understand your reasoning for the phrasing, and there is an RS even if the fact stated is demonstrably false. Of the other outstanding, two are trivial, the US/U.S. is really just seeking clarification, for all I know it could be perfectly correct (BE tends to use US anyway), but the different capitalisation of the birds in the text and gallery is a bit glaring - Wood Stork even has two different capitalisations within the gallery. I look forward to supporting soon, Jimfbleak - talk to me? 19:04, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No serious issues left, up to you what you do with the gallery, now supporting Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:26, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Comments: as one of the million who cross this river every day, I'm ashamed to admit that I don't really notice it unless there's a waterspout or a boat accident to grab my attention. I don't have the time to give this a proper read at the moment, but at a glance it looks fabulous. Two incredibly minor things about the gallery, though: first, why are there two pictures of wood storks in the gallery? Out of all the awesome birds to display (Osprey, Anhinga, Great Blue Heron, etc., etc.), why show one of the ugliest -- twice? Second, I see that the Latin names of the birds are redirects; coragyps atratus is simply known as Black Vulture, for example. Minorest of minor comments, I know, so just slap me with a fish and consider this a placeholder for the real review to come. María (habla conmigo) 19:42, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Would Mrs. Wood Stork agree with your assessment of her ugly children? I think not. However, the images were the only aspect of the article I kept when I rewrote it. I can find something to replace the second wood stork: an image of a bird just as hideous if it pleases you. As for the redirects, that seems to be something in the MOS that flips and flops: there was an effort a year ago or so to make all articles go directly to scientific names, so I guess that petered out. Maybe it will come back, like Pet Rocks. I think it looks more professional the way it appears now, though. Let me know if you have other suggestions. I appreciate and anticipate the review to come. --Moni3 (talk) 20:07, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, Anhinga would be most appropriate, given its restricted US range, whereas Osprey has a global distribution, and the heron is found over most N&C Am

I'm looking for images where the birds were photographed somewhere near the St. Johns. I have an image of an egret I took at Lake George, and I'm scanning the US Fish and Wildlife website for images of birds in central and north Florida... --Moni3 (talk) 13:00, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea. I think Osprey would be a good choice if only because it's the mascot of a local university, but a Water Turkey or two would do. If needed, I can take a picture of the goofy one that frequents my backyard. Hours of entertainment, he is. María (habla conmigo) 14:09, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. Alt text done; thanks. Alt text is mostly present (thanks) but it is missing for:

• File:Stjohnsriver detailmap.png. To fix this, please edit Template:St. Johns River geobox and fill in the currently-blank |map_alt= parameter. For guidance on alt text for maps, please see WP:ALT#Maps.
• The gallery in Middle basin. I fixed it to use {{Image gallery}}, which supports alt text. Please add alt text to its entries; you can do this by replacing the "||" in each line with "|alt text for this image|".

Also:

• Please remove the phrases "Photograph of", "Image of", "Image showing" from the alt text, as per WP:ALT #Phrases to avoid.
• Please remove from alt text the phrases "Blue Spring", "at one of its widest points", "downtown Jacksonville showing several tall buildings and the Main Street Bridge", "Geneva, Florida following Tropical Storm Fay", "1876", "at the time", "from 1903", "Lake Monroe", "former marshland converted"; please see WP:ALT#Verifiability and WP:ALT#Repetition.

Eubulides (talk) 06:39, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The wood stork image has been changed. I've added alt text to the image gallery, but the way it appears on my browser looks bad. Is there a way to force 4 images on one line and 4 on the next? Right now, it shows 7 images on the first line and 1 image on the bottom. --Moni3 (talk) 16:51, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It shows all eight in one line on mine, but I've tweaked to 4+4, which I think looks better anyway Jimfbleak - talk to me? 18:55, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I see four and four as well, but the top level is shifted right and the bottom is centered. --Moni3 (talk) 19:23, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

{{Image gallery}} arranges as many images as can fit into the first row, and then similarly for later rows. Forcing 4 images on one line and 4 on the next doesn't work well for viewers with smaller screens or narrower browser windows, because the images on the right aren't viewable without scrolling. The previous two comments were evidently made by editors who have big screens; we can't assume that readers-on-netbooks will as well. The tweak to 4+4 will actually display as 3+1+3+1 on narrower screens, so I'd change it back. Eubulides (talk) 21:50, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I see that many of the problems mentioned above were fixed; thanks. I fixed all the remaining problems I found. Eubulides (talk) 06:47, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Comments -
• Current ref 1 (USGS...) needs publisher and last access date
• Newspapers titles in the references should be in italics. If you're using {{cite news}}, use the work field for the title of the paper, and the publisher field for the name of the actual company that publishes the paper
• What makes http://www.wildflorida.com/articles/Wild_Monkeys_in_Florida.php a reliable source?

Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:55, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

wildflorida.com, according to the About us page, is written by three Floridians, two of whom are professionals in the field of wildlife biology. The citation is supported by two other sources and merely provides an alternative suggestion about how Rhesus monkeys arrived in Florida. For its purpose, I believe the source is reliable.

I don't use cite templates. I've italicized one instance of a newspaper not in italics. If I find more, I'll fix them.

I agree with your comment on ref 1. It's in a template, which I've never seen before, on Template:St._Johns_River_geobox and I did not add it to the article. I don't know why the USGS spells it as Saint Johns River either. I'll see what I can find to fix it. If anyone else has any tips, I'd be glad to hear them. Screw it. I fixed it myself. --Moni3 (talk) 22:15, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'll leave the other out for other reviewers to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:45, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support (by Finetooth) Comments: This is fascinating, exceedingly well-written, and beautifully illustrated. I plan to review the whole article, but I thought it would be better to post my comments in two or three installments than to delay posting the fraction that is done. The first installment runs through "Springs and aquifers".

*Lead

• Springs and aquifers
• "All of Florida's abundant fresh water is the result of precipitation that returns to the atmosphere in a process involving evaporation and transpiration of moisture from plants called evapotranspiration." - Rearrange slightly? Suggestion: "All of Florida's abundant fresh water is the result of precipitation that returns to the atmosphere in a process called evapotranspiration that involves evaporation and transpiration of moisture from plants."
• "Acidic rainwater erodes the limestone... " - I believe this is the first mention of limestone. Probably some connection needs to be made here between limestone and the calcium carbonate deposition discussed in "Formation and hydrology". Does the confining layer consist mainly of limestone?

Finetooth (talk) 03:56, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Whoa, thanks for the review, Finetooth. I think I've made all the changes. I guess in every article I've brought to FAC there's some glaring error so odd, such as the conversion of 30 feet to km in the lead there, that I am in complete disbelief that I did it. Such was my disbelief when I read your comments that I had no idea what you were talking about until I read it, then thought, who put that in there??? Me, probably...

The confining layer of the Floridan Aquifer are four levels of karst formations divided by their permeability that are quite detailed in my sources, but I think too much detail for this article. They do not limit the confining layer to limestone, so lest Captain Geology swoop down on it and call me sloppy, I think I'll leave it for now. I am, however, open to discussion on it if it is a source of confusion.

I'm very glad you like the article and I look forward to more comments. --Moni3 (talk) 13:07, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I like the article very much. This is a most interesting river, and you have captured its essential self in elegant fashion. As to the "glaring error", I think I spotted it mainly because I've done the same thing myself several times. As to the limestone, I think that what is there now is fine; "Waves compressed sands, calcium carbonate, and shells into limestone" makes the connection that I missed before (or which appeared since I last looked). I'm striking my first set of comments above and changing my "comments" above to "support". Below is installment 2 of my comments; nothing in them prevents my support of this truly excellent article.

*Flow rates and water quality

• Restoration
• "Although most of it is washed from the southern parts of the river, the Jacksonville area produces approximately 36 percent of the pollutants found in the lower basin." - Maybe "pollution" rather than "it" for clarity?
• "The State of Florida implemented a program named Surface Water Improvement and Management (SWIM).... " - Could you add the date of the start-up?

Finetooth (talk) 22:24, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. Changes made. I appreciate your scrutiny and suggestions. Thank you very much for the review. --Moni3 (talk) 22:52, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• The toolbox reveals a dead link. Dabomb87 (talk) 01:02, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• As you can see, it died 2 days before you noticed it, after I nominated it. It's still available in HTML form. Does anybody know if NOAA keeps former articles hosted at their site? Do they move them to another, or shall I simply de-link it? --Moni3 (talk) 14:15, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Part of that document can be found at this site. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 14:58, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by Ruhrfisch - I peer reviewed this and think it is essentially ready for FA, just have some comments first:

• We discussed this in the PR, but I think that It is one of the few rivers in the United States to run north. in the lead is a bit of a stretch (there are more than a few rivers flowing north in the US). The article text says It flows north—which is unusual in North America—from its headwaters ... Could the lead just also say it is unusual?
• Also in the lead there seems to be some redundancy here Numerous lakes are formed by the river or flow into it, but as a river its widest point is 3 miles (4.8 km) across, spanning several miles between Palatka and Jacksonville, the latter being the largest urban area on the river.
• In Geography and ecology, could the use of flows/flowing in the same sentence be avoided (perhaps use runs for the first use?) It flows north—which is unusual in North America—from its headwaters flowing from the Lake Wales Ridge, which is only slightly elevated at 30 feet (9.1 m) above sea level.
• Lake Geroge section, In 1955 an extremely rare Timucua totem representing an owl was found buried and preserved in the St. Johns muck off of Hontoon Island; no other totems in North America have been found outside of the Pacific Northwest.[33] but the next sentence says two more were found in 1978. Perhaps ... Hontoon Island; at the time no other totems in North America had been found outside of the Pacific Northwest.[33]*Land boom section, missing verb? Undeveloped land sold well and draining to reclaim wetlands has often gone unchecked, and [was?] instead encouraged by government.

That's it, very nicely done (as usual). Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 13:56, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Ok. I'm uncomfortable with the discrepancies between what the sources say about the northern flowing rivers of the world and the St. Johns. I've written to Anthony Randazzo, who has been cited in The Geology of Florida, to ask him to quantify his point. I hope to get a reply somewhat soon. However, I am confident that two sources have stated that the St. Johns is rare in that it is a river in the northern hemisphere/North America to flow north. I don't think it is demonstrably false as characterized by an editor in this FAC, but rather not very well explained. Now I've asked Dr. Randazzo for some more detail on this statement to be able to explain it. Perhaps this means in comparison with 50 other rivers. Or 1,000. Maybe the way its headwaters flow, or the terrain it passes over. I don't know.
• I don't think the sentence about Palatka and Jacksonville in the lead is redundant, but if you have a suggestion about how it should be reworded, I'm happy to change it. The river is wider from the east to the west banks. This spans from Palatka to Jacksonville, north to south. It's wide in miles, the length of several miles.
• I think I've fixed the other issues. Let me know if you have more suggestions. Thanks for the review. --Moni3 (talk) 15:09, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• I have switched to support as the points left are minor. I struck three poitns and I know you will resolve the remaining issues. As the for the ones left, here are my thoughts:

• I think of few as less than 10 or 20 at the most, and I can name more than 20 American rivers that flow north (the article itself mentions a tributary of the St. Johns that does too). Few can also mean a small proportion of the total number, so that might be true. In any case, I also think that the lead should reflect the text of the article and, as noted, the article says it is unusual (not one of the few). Let's see what the expert says.
• I guess I do not understand this sentence: Numerous lakes are formed by the river or flow into it, but as a river its widest point is 3 miles (4.8 km) across, spanning several miles between Palatka and Jacksonville, the latter being the largest urban area on the river. It seems to say exactly how wide it is at its widest point (3 miles), then gives a vague ditance (several miles) and two cities that are about 40 miles apart. My guess is that it is 3 miles wide at several points bewteen Palatka and Jacksonville, or that there is a several mile long section of the river that is this wide, but I am just confused by this now.

Hope this helps clarify my comments, thanks Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 16:12, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Further comments: This is indeed a fine article. Although I'm hopeless with ecology, hydrology, etc., I found a great deal of it interesting; I must admit, however, that it took me a few days to get through all of that science mumbo jumbo. With my faults now upfront, I concentrated mainly on the latter history sections. For the most part I think it's a great overview, but I worry that some areas stray a little too far from the river itself, paying perhaps a little too much attention to minor and major players in Florida's history. Some whittling may be in order throughout to make sure that the focus stays on the St. Johns, rather than the state as a whole. A few specifics:

• foreshadowing a history during which eight different countries have controlled the river. -- during which eight different countries WOULD CONTROL the river?
• The Timucua, as other groups of indigenous people in Florida, began to lose cohesion and numbers by the 18th century. This paragraph loses sight of the river. Yes, the Timucua are important in regards to the river pre-colonization, but this paragraph veers into "History of Florida" rather than "History of the St. Johns", if that makes sense.
• Zephaniah Kingsley, Anna, and their plantation is fascinating, but is it necessary to dedicate such a meaty paragraph to them in this article? The St. Jones is only mentioned peripherally (their plantation was "close to the west bank" of the river), and Kingsley wasn't the only one to settle nearby.
• In 1864, near Palatka, Confederate forces captured and then burned the USS Columbine and sank her, making it perhaps the only ship commandeered by the Confederacy. -- The use of "perhaps" here is somewhat confusing; was it or wasn't it? Columbine's article states it was "one of the few instances in which a Union warship was destroyed by land-based forces during the Civil War in Florida", but maybe your source is less clear? Either way, this can be worded better.
• Although the Spanish had colonized Florida for two centuries, they did not focus on developing much of it. Florida remained the last part of the east coast of the United States to be developed and explored. -- Perhaps consider combining these two: "Although the Spanish had colonized Florida for two centuries, the state remained..."?

Hope this helps, and that I'm making myself clear; I don't think there need to be any drastic changes, but perhaps a little culling will help refocus this massive section. I know that the history of Florida is so very closely associated to that of the St. Johns, and vice versa, but there is an awful lot of info to take in here. Let me know what you think, and even if just the above is addressed, I'll be happy to add my support. María (habla conmigo) 18:31, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I made a couple changes. When suggested to cut material, I find it best for me to wait a few hours and think about it. The Seminoles are mentioned later in the article, so cutting all information about the demise of the Timucua won't do. I can drop some to a note. I can make other references to the river. Let me think on it and consult my psychic...uh...sources...

On the Columbine, my sources aren't really clear on this either. They say perhaps.

There are other planters I can name in the Kingsley paragraph. He's just the notable one for the historic site. --Moni3 (talk) 18:44, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.