Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Sideshow Bob

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Raul654 19:14, 10 February 2009 [1].

Sideshow Bob

Nominator(s): Scorpion0422

My first FA of 2009 is one I've been meaning to do for a while but just recently got around to it. I'll finish this nom with some wisdom from Bob himself:

"I'll be back. You can't keep the Democrats out of the White House forever. And when they get in, I'm back on the street! With all of my criminal buddies! Ah-ha-ha-ha-ha!" - Sideshow Bob, 1992

Anyway, as always, all concerns will be addressed by me. -- Scorpion0422 17:25, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments -

Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Note the link checker tool is showing the billboard link as dead, but it works fine. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:30, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, replaced with a NewsBank Hamilton Spectator ref. -- Scorpion0422 00:19, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:Cecil and Bob.png - I am on the fence about this fair use image. There is critical commentary in the article comparing the two characters, but I am not sure that we need to show Cecil. Apparently, Cecil is meant to look "related" to Bob. On the one hand, I think showing the two characters is helpful, because I wouldn't have guessed they were supposed to look alike. On the other hand, this article is about Bob, and I wonder how necessary this image of Cecil really is. My concerns here fall under WP:NFCC #8. I would appreciate feedback from other reviewers on this issue. Awadewit (talk) 15:56, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think this problem can be solved by adding to the intro a statement on the lines: "only one relative of Bob has been introduced on the show, Cecil". This way having a section and a image with him would make it more ok. Nergaal (talk) 01:27, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Multiple members of the Sideshow family have been introduced on the show, including both of his parents, a wife and a child. Otto4711 (talk) 03:54, 23 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So have you reached a decision on the image? I can remove it if you like. -- Scorpion0422 00:19, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Excellent article, though my comment on the PR was not addressed. There are multiple cases of repetition in the article. One is how Bob is stalled by reciting the HMS Pinafore and is captured, which is in both the Appearances and Analysis sections. Reywas92Talk 20:08, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • It can't really be avoided though. It's a major plot point, so it should be mentioned in appearances but it's also cited as an example in the book we use. You have to assume that the reader is not familiar with The Simpsons (or that they bothered to read the entire article), so in both cases a short description is provided. -- Scorpion0422 18:29, 19 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Not at all close to 1a. Update: Scartol's copyedit has greatly improved the prose.
  • From the lead:
    • "He began as a sidekick " Began is quite vague here...began as a character (out of universe, and began is still too unspecific) or began his career (in universe)?
    • "involve Bob/him [verb]-ing" is quite ungainly, especially in two sentences in a row.
      • Do you have any suggestions?
    • "Sideshow Bob has been described as "Frasier pickled in arsenic"," Citation for quotation? Passive perfect tense is weak.
      • Per WP:LEAD, citations are not needed in the lead if there is a citation later in the article. And the complete version of that quote is used (and cited) later.
    • "has since been praised for his portrayals" Yet more passive perfect. What's the "since" doing here?
      • Removed.
    • "Several parallels have been drawn in the show" And more. In fact, the weak perfect tense is used throughout the lead.
      • So what is wrong with the sentence?
        • Nothing wrong grammatically; I'm pointing out that it, plus numerous other sentences, use the perfect perfect progressive. They often beg the question, "by whom?" If this can be answered, then a recast into an active voice often leads to stronger prose. BuddingJournalist 00:06, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "the premise of the Coyote chasing the Road Runner by having Bob unexpectedly inserting himself into Bart's life." These two ideas, connected by the "by", don't seem to relate to each other.
      • They do too. Have you ever seen the Coyote and Road Runner cartoons?
        • I have, but how does "Bob unexpectedly inserting himself into Bart's life" connect with this idea? BuddingJournalist 23:50, 19 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • Well, you have to remember that it's just the lead and the idea is exanded upon in the development section. But the Coyote is a self-proclaimed genius who continually chases this stupid bird for whatever reason and always loses. This premise is similar to Bob & Bart. Also, that idea was mentioned by a producer in one of the DVD commentaries. -- Scorpion0422 00:05, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • One of the tough parts of the lead is balancing clarity with succinctness. "Bob unexpectedly inserting himself into Bart's life" is vague and does not seem to connect to the previous idea of "chasing". Draw the parallel explicitly. BuddingJournalist 00:11, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
              • Okay.
                • I'm still not seeing the connection of "Bob unexpectedly inserting himself into Bart's life" with Coyote/Road Runner (note that this exact phrase is used later as well). The recurring theme of the cartoons is that the coyote repeatedly tries and fails to kill the road runner, which seems to be the correct parallel, not the vague "unexpectedly inserting himself", no? BuddingJournalist 07:04, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "a role as the main antagonist in The Simpsons Ride and several of Grammer's musical..." Broken list: either "and a role...The Simpsons Ride, and several" or recast "and several of Grammer's..." so that parallelism is kept through the list.
      • I split it into two sentences.
    • Looking at some sentences at random below the lead:
    • "decided to have Bob return to get revenge" This is just begging for a recast.
    • "and the directors think they are always crazy and fun for them to animate" Encyclopedic prose, please.
    • "The writers believe that Grammer has a great voice and try to create something for him to sing each time he appears." Yet more simplistic prose.
    • "His intelligence can sometimes be a plus such as in "Cape Feare". A Parole Board asks Bob why he has a tattoo that said "Die, Bart, Die" and he replies that it is German for "The, Bart, The"." Huh? Is the second sentence supposed to serve as an example of why this is a "plus" (note also the un-encyclopedic and vague use of "plus")? If so, I'm not seeing the connection.
  • The article seems far from 1a standard and needs a significant copy-edit. Whoever decides to undertake the copy-edit will probably need access to the sources to rewrite much of the rather simplistic language and sentence structure that is used throughout the article. BuddingJournalist 13:51, 19 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'll see what I can do. -- Scorpion0422 18:28, 19 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Just to keep you up to date, I am still looking for a copyeditor (the user I would normally go to is busy), do you know any? As well, which of your concerns listed above are still not fully addressed? -- Scorpion0422 19:11, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • As for copyeditors, maybe User:Cirt? I struck the ones I believe have been addressed, although I may have overlooked some things. But these were just examples; there are many areas for improvement in the prose throughout the article.
          • Take this paragraph, for example: "Cecil returned in "Funeral for a Fiend" in season 19, along with their previously unseen father, Dr. Robert Terwilliger, who was played by John Mahoney. Mahoney had also played Martin Crane, the father of Grammer's and Pierce's characters in Frasier. However, the dynamic of the characters was changed: [While] in Frasier, Mahoney played the "down-to-earth, average guy" to Grammer's and Hyde Pierce's "uppity snobs"[,]; but Robert Terwilliger was portrayed as being just as highbrow as Bob. Bob also has a wife named Francesca (voiced by Maria Grazia Cucinotta) and a son named Gino, both of whom were introduced in the season 17 episode "The Italian Bob" and returned for "Funeral for a Fiend"."
            • Easily spotted errors such as "their", "Grammer...characters"/"Grammer..."uppity snobs"", and using a semicolon incorrectly should really be resolved in a copyedit/proofread before FAC.
            • Redundancies such as "who was", "also", and "being" can be eliminated in favor of crisper prose.
            • Since the contrast of the dynamics is explicitly laid out, the "However, the dynamic of the characters was changed" can be safely eliminated for a simpler comparison.
            • "played" gets a bit repetitive.
            • "returned" clashes with "along with...previously unseen". You'll need to find a way to recast this sentence.
            • The last "also" is a weak way of transitioning to Bob's wife and son. It really ought to be eliminated, but doing so makes the break in discussion more jarring. Is there a better place within the Family section for this sentence—perhaps at the very beginning? BuddingJournalist 07:04, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • BuddingJournalist, could you comment on the fair use issue I raised above? Thanks. Awadewit (talk) 19:56, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Another Update Cirt, has started doing a copyedit and has done the lead. However, this will likely be archived tomorrow so I'll probably have to give it another try. -- Scorpion0422 00:19, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think above you made reference to "Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding." The "topic" in question here is "Bob's family". Given that, I think having the picture showing the 2 characters together does significantly increase my understanding of how they are drawn to resemble each other as family would be, and not having the picture would be detrimental to my understanding of that. In my opinion it qualifies as fair use. Rreagan007 (talk) 20:03, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support I peer reviewed this, felt it was very close to FA standards at the time, and believe that the edits since have only improved it. I think the image of the brothers is acceptable as a fair use image. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 21:21, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment WHile I believe the Bob and Cecil image meets WP:NFCC, I am also OK with its removal. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 16:13, 2 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm willing to pass on the image as the other one has been removed. However there should be some care in terms of the free images added; in some places they are aligned left in violation of MoS rules regarding images, and clutter up the text, breaking up section headers and adding whitespace; add breaks if you're going to have so many. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 19:36, 3 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've tried shifting the images around and I uploaded cropped versions of the Grammer and Hyde Pierce image. Is it better now? -- Scorpion0422 20:01, 3 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm the one who added the images — I felt they helped break up walls of copy. What MOS violation are you referring to? The only one I can imagine is not left-aligning images just below level-three headers, which I always carefully avoid. In any case, it looks like Scorpion has fixed the clutter problem. Scartol • Tok 20:09, 3 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments I have stricken my image comment above, but upon examination of the prose, this is far from meeting 1a. It needs a thorough copyedit. I agree with BuddingJournalist's assessment that the prose is very simplistic, reading more like a episode guide than an encyclopedia article. Random samples just from the first section:
    • Confusing mixture of past and present tense when talking about Bob's history. I thought you had a system going, but it breaks down quickly.
      • There is a system going. Events that appear in the show are in present tense, events that were not depicted in the show are in past tense.
    • "This was part of a scheme to gain access to ..." Avoid using "this" to refer to a previous concept without restating.
    • "After this escapade, Bob is genuinely redeemed ..." We have to wait a tortuously long time before reading how he was redeemed.
      • What? That was part of the plot of the episode, Bob was genuinely changed and thus he was released.
    • The whole section, actually, is not a compelling read. The long list of "Bob is released from prison. Bob does something. Bob is returned from prison." is a labor to read through. Sorry, but this has quite a way to go.
--Laser brain (talk) 05:02, 3 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Looking much better.
    • Still not convinced by "having Bob unexpectedly insert himself into Bart's life". At the least the first time this is used, there is an "and attempt to kill him." The recurring motif of the the Coyote/Road Runner cartoons is that the Coyote repeatedly tries to kill the Road Runner in elaborate ways, no? Therefore, "by having Bob repeatedly attempt to kill Bart" or something similar makes much more sense to me.
    • Okay, I can go for that. Done.
      • Forgot to mention: this is actually what happens in the episode though, right (that he repeatedly attempts to kill him)? I've never seen it; I was just extrapolating from the comparison. BuddingJournalist 22:46, 3 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • I didn't think of that. Usually the episodes revolve around one plan to kill Bart, rather than numerous failed attempts, so the previous wording was more accurate. -- Scorpion0422 22:56, 3 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • OK, I guess I'm still left wondering about the comparison then. I can understand how the comparison can be made across multiple episodes, since he repeatedly fails at killing Bart, but the current wording suggests something specific about that one episode that recalls the Coyote/Road Runner episodes. BuddingJournalist 23:10, 3 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Cecil returned in "Funeral for a Fiend" during season 19, along with the brothers' previously unseen father, Dr. Robert Terwilliger, played by John Mahoney." "Returned" clashes with "along with...previously unseen".
      • Fixed (I think).
        • Not quite. What I mean is that the second clause basically clashes with the verb choice of "return". Since Dr. Robert Terwillinger is "previously unseen", then his appearance can't be a "return". See my tweak. BuddingJournalist 22:46, 3 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Believing that "nobody who speaks German could be an evil man", they release him" Quotation needs citation. BuddingJournalist 22:32, 3 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support — I gave the article a quick read-through and found just two items, which I fixed myself. Good work by everyone who contributed to the article. I only wish that every Wikiproject had as dedicated and organized a crew as Wikiproject Simpsons. JKBrooks85 (talk) 06:56, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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