Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Robert Schumann/archive1

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Robert Schumann

Robert Schumann (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

As of 22 June 2024, 18:42 (UTC), this page is active and open for discussion. An FAC coordinator will be responsible for closing the nomination.
Toolbox
Nominator(s): Tim riley talk 09:38, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is almost certainly the first time there have been two articles on composers up for FAC (Igor Stravinsky is already here). I'm venturing outside my comfort zone with Schumann. With one exception – Rossini – the previous nineteen composer FAs I've nominated or co-nominated have been French or English, and though I can't claim to be an expert on French or English music, still less am I expert on German music: the input at the peer review from Ssilvers, Aza24, SchroCat, MyCatIsAChonk, UndercoverClassicist, KJP1 and Iadmc has been of inestimable value and I am profoundly grateful. Suggestions for further improvement – prose, proportion, balance, sourcing and anything else – will be most welcome. Tim riley talk 09:38, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Iadmc

  • Support A lot of work has been done recently and the article is ready for being featured, in my opinion. All the FA criteria are fulfilled and the article is especially well sourced and written.— Iadmc♫talk  09:47, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for this support, Iadmc, and for your input at PR. I don't think our paths had crossed until a week or so ago, and I hope they will cross again. Tim riley talk 10:09, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed! See you around — Iadmc♫talk  10:09, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thought Shouldn't the infobox link to his List of Works?— Iadmc♫talk  16:08, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think that's a rotten trick to play on our poor readers. An info-box is meant to sum up the key points within an article, and not to take the poor souls off to some other article altogether. Tim riley talk 17:44, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Since it is another article altogether and the alternative is to list some works according to some editor's opinion, why not? We link some places and people who have articles in the info box: Zwickau, Bonn, and Clara Schumann. The List is less likely to keep them from the main article. — Iadmc♫talk  18:05, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We link to the list from the top of the Works section. No need to do it twice. Tim riley talk 18:13, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We link Zwickau, Bonn, and Clara Schumann in the lead. Should we unlink them in the infobox? Why? — Iadmc♫talk  18:29, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But they are all mentioned in the article, and the list isn't. Personally I despise info-boxes for composers, which me judice serve no useful purpose, but this one was in situ when I began my overhaul and it seemed presumptuous to remove it. Tim riley talk 18:43, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This edit was made on the sly. Removed List of works and signature with no explanation except "additional info and refs; rem uncited material". This needs further discussion. I won't replace them unless others agree I should. The signature is better in the info box, imo. And yes: those items are mentioned already so why link them? This is a way to remove the box, I fear, by rotting it — Iadmc♫talk  17:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

His signature has in fact vanished — Iadmc♫talk  17:15, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is no case for putting a composer's signature in an info-box. The box is there to sum up what is in the article. An autograph does no such thing. Tim riley talk 18:28, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But it should be somewhere in the article if it exists? — Iadmc♫talk  18:30, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A case could be made, I suppose, for including it elsewhere in the article, but I’ve never seen the point, personally. It doesn’t help explain the individual or aid the reader in any way. It is, however, something tangibly connected to the composer though.
I’m going to pull you up on the rather uncivil accusation that Tim did something “on the sly”. He did a major rewrite that cut unsourced material and added quality content. That’s not ‘on the sky’, and it leaves an unpleasant taste. You should consider striking that rather contemptible part of your comment. SchroCat (talk) 18:50, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SchroCat (talk) 18:36, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Sorry Tim.— Iadmc♫talk  18:54, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that Tim's rewrite is remarkable, in fact. I just had some concerns to air and did so in an uncivil manner — Iadmc♫talk  18:57, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, both. I confess I found the phrase "on the sly" rather hurtful. As far as I can recall (I may be mistaken) the autograph is not reproduced in any of the biographies about Schumann I've studied for this overhaul. If it isn't in the books it seems perverse to make room for it in a 7,000-word article. I had to drop some excellent images that were crammed into the then existing version: we have to use our limited space prudently. One wise colleague commented that seeing the subject's handwriting might possibly be illuminating in an article about a visual artist, but tells one nothing about the subject in an article about a musician. Tim riley talk 18:54, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see the point. Ignore me, then! I'll look through the article again soon to see what needs fixing or goes against MOS etc. A glance says it's pretty good, though — Iadmc♫talk  19:05, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

MyCat

  • Throughout his childhood and youth his love of music and literature ran in tandem, with poems - is this comma needed?
  • Yes indeed. They ran in tandem with each other, rather than with poems etc. I could make the comma a dash if you think it would make the point more clearly. Tim riley talk 11:59, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Somewhere I saw "homeopathy" be spelled "homoeopathy" in BrE, but I'm hardly one to correct BrE spellings
  • Both are correct. The OED actually gives precedence to the longer variant, though I can't remember ever seeing it used anywhere. The Times, the BBC, The Guardian and the current edition of Fowler all spell the word as "homeopathy". Tim riley talk 11:59, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • together with his discovery that she was an illegitimate, impecunious, adopted daughter of Fricken - I know what impecunious and adopted are saying, but what purpose does "illegitimate" serve here? Even is she was being dishonest, perhaps that's a better word, as I see "illegitimate" as connecting to "adopted" here.
  • Being born out of wedlock carried a considerable stigma in those days. The source uses all three adjectives. Tim riley talk 11:59, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps together with his discovery that she was an "illegitimate, impecunious, adopted" daughter of Fricken to make the point that it is a quote? — Iadmc♫talk  12:16, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's all right. I'll leave it as it is for now and wait to see if anyone else comments. Tim riley talk 12:23, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there a particular reason the web citations are cited with text as opposed to using the full templates?
  • Just what I've always done. Works fine and nobody seems to object.

That's all I got- excellent work here! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:31, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the above, and for your input at PR. My regards to you and Igor. Tim riley talk 11:59, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The citation style is perfectly acceptable per WP:CITE — Iadmc♫talk  12:21, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support then- wonderful job MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 21:21, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks for your support here and for your earlier input. Tim riley talk 06:27, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from UC

Not sure I'll have many more nits to pick after the PR, but will drop in here to give it a go when I can. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:23, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Doing my best to find some. Apologies if I'm re-raising anything from PR:

  • at Leipzig and Heidelberg Universities: I am chewing on the capital U here: my thinking is that it's probably not right, since it isn't strictly part of a proper noun any more (that is, there's no proper noun Leipzig and Heidelberg Universities. Advise the universities of Leipzig and Heidelberg.
  • I wouldn't italicise alter egos, as it's English (ego doesn't really have a plural in Latin, but it wouldn't be egos if it did)
  • Despite the bitter opposition of Wieck, who did not regard his pupil as a suitable husband for his daughter, Schumann married Wieck's daughter Clara in 1840: as the relative clause doesn't make any sense until we have the last bit, this would perhaps be better reordered to put the marriage first, then the objection second.
  • This was originally as you suggest, but was changed at the request of a peer reviewer. Tim riley talk 18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Schumann's always precarious mental health: hyphenate always-precarious as a compound modifier? MoS makes an exception for -ly compounds, but this isn't one.
  • affluent middle class family: hyphenate middle-class as above. I might suggest using affluent in the lead to replace comfortable: I'm mindful that in some parts of the world, "middle-class" means "ordinary" rather than "petite-bourgeoise".
  • during 1835 Schumann gradually realised that Ernestine's personality was not as interesting as he first thought: I know this is couched as "in the view of", but it's still fundamentally unverifiable (how can we measure the interesting-ness of someone's personality) and, frankly, a bit infra dig for us to be making what reads as a quite sneery comment at Ernestine's expense. The word "realised" could perhaps be reworked into more of a statement of opinion: it's one thing to say that he found her less interesting, it's another to say that she objectively was uninteresting.
  • Professionally the later years of the 1830s were marked by an abortive attempt by Schumann to establish himself in Vienna: to me, abortive means short-lived, which I'm not sure is appropriate if it lasted for several years. "Failed", "unsuccessful" vel sim?
  • The source uses the term "abortive" but I wondered about it and am inclined to agree with you. Changed. Tim riley talk 18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • described its "himmlische Länge": I believe that under the MoS, if we italicise a non-English quote, we don't then use quote marks.
  • Very possibly, but I'll both italicise and quote here unless absolutely forced not to. It seems to me unhelpful to the reader not to do both. Tim riley talk 18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Clara gave birth to a daughter in September, the first of the Schumanns' seven children to survive: do we know her name?
  • We do, but I don't propose to give the names of all his children. I don't think it is of value to the reader. Tim riley talk 18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • de gustibus, assuming they're not remotely notable in themselves. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:42, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Op 54. The following year he worked on what was to be published as his Second Symphony, Op. 61. : the first Op. should have a dot to mark the abbreviation, I think.
  • the D minor symphony from 1841, published as his Fourth Symphony (1851) and the 1835 Symphonic Studies (1852).: comma after (1851).
  • the twenty-year-old Johannes Brahms called on Schumann with a letter of introduction from their mutual friend the violinist Joseph Joachim.: I know I'm generally more comma-happy than you, but I think we really need one after friend here.
  • I don't think so. That would make Joachim their only mutual friend (which he may have been, but I don't know.) It's the difference between "my brother, John" and "my brother John".
  • Very well, but then at least we want something like "their mutual friend Joseph Joachim, the violinist". There's a more elegant and technical way of putting this, but the four-word noun phrase is just too "heavy" to stand in this position without some sort of punctuation to give structure to the sentence. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:42, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • In "Works", Romantic era is linked on second mention, which seems odd.
  • A hangover from the régime that forbade links from within quotations. Old habits die hard. Now linked at first instance. Tim riley talk 18:11, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The other three were stand-alone concert works inspired by Schiller (The Bride of Messina), Shakespeare (Julius Caesar) and Goethe (Hermann and Dorothea).: I expected these links to go to Schumann's works, not to e.g. Shakespeare's. To reduce the easter egg factor, suggest "Schiller's The Bride of Messina, Shakespeare's Julius Caesar, etc.
    OK. Done. What think you of Requiem Mass in the opera and choral section, which worried me for similar reasons? Tim riley talk 18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think that's fine: if we were linking to the specific work, I'd expect the linktext to cover the "a", which it doesn't. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:09, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • (see sound clips, right): phrases like this are discouraged: on certain screens (particularly mobile), the clips may not be to the right of the text. Personally, I'd simply cut this altogether, as the caption to those clips makes clear what they are.

All very minor: I doubt they'll take you very long at all. UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:21, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks UC. Your eagle eye is, as ever, greatly valued. Tim riley talk 20:16, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SchroCat

  • Support. I was happy at PR, but the article has been strengthened since. - SchroCat (talk) 14:10, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, SchroCat, for support here and input at PR. Tim riley talk 15:26, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ssilvers

The 4th paragraph of the LEAD section says: "...but he was not a good conductor and had to resign after three years." At first glance, one would think this meant that his technical conducting skills were poor.

However, the problem seems to have been social skills, not technique. The body of the article says "...he accepted a post as director of music at Düsseldorf in April 1850. Hall comments that in retrospect it can be seen that Schumann was fundamentally unsuited for the post. In Hall's view, Schumann's diffidence in social situations, allied to mental instability, "ensured that initially warm relations with local musicians gradually deteriorated to the point where his removal became a necessity in 1853".

The LEAD (not lied) ought to be harmonised with the text below. I suggest "...but his shyness and mental instability made it difficult for him to work with other/orchestra musicians, and he had to resign after three years." I am so sorry that I do not have time to review this thoroughly. Good luck! -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:21, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That will do nicely. Thank you, Ss. Tim riley talk 19:24, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review by Generalissima

  • File:Robert Schumann 1839.jpg: Public domain.
  • File:Schumannhaus ALT.JPG: Public domain.
  • File:Portrait of A Young Age of Robert Schumann.png: Public domain - the photo is uploaded as an "own work", but that might refer to the physical picture of the photo including the frame?
  • File:Schumann-Abegg-theme.jpg: Public domain, but can be copied over to commons as it is out of copyright outside in its source country as well.
  • File:Neue-Zeitschrift-fur-Musik.jpg: Public domain.
  • File:Clara-Wieck-1832-signed-illegible.png: Public domain.
  • File:Clara und Robert Schumann Relief MIM.jpg: Released into public domain on upload.
  • File:Robert u Clara Schumann 1847.jpg: Public domain.
  • File:Schumann-photo1850.jpg: Public domain.
  • File:Du Ring am meinem Finger.jpg: Public domain (Like above, can be transferred onto commons.)
  • File:Rhenish-opening-score.jpg (Like above.)
  • File:Schumann-Genoveva-score.jpg (Like above.)
  • File:Robert-Schumann-Haus.JPG: CC-BY-SA 2.0
  • I am unsure if this is part of the image review, but all the music files are also good to use, as they are CC licensed.
  • Images have appropriate alt-text.
  • I would move the 1847 Robert and Clara Schumann picture to the right, as per MOS:IMAGELOC.
  • No sandwiching issues as I can see.

Seems pretty good to me, besides that one image realignment; adding the licensing that lets the other files be transferred to commons would be nice, but I don't think is actually pertinent to the article itself per FA criteria. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 18:51, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Generalissima, thank you for this thorough and encouraging review. I'm a bit reluctant to move the 1847 image to the right hand of the page: having it flush left varies the layout a bit, I feel. I'm indebted to you for your review. Tim riley talk 19:21, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Tim riley: Oh, I just realized that the "Clara Wieck in 1832" image could be left-aligned, as she appears to be facing right. Is there a way to move those around to keep the layout interesting? Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 19:22, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perfectly happy for you or anyone else to rejig the images if you think they'd be improved thereby. Tim riley talk 19:37, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Okay! Anyhow, since it's essentially an optional element of the MOS as it pertains to image, I'm happy to Support on image review. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 19:50, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

To follow.... - SchroCat (talk) 14:53, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Quality
All sources are both reliable and of high quality. Subject specific searches do not show any major or concerning gaps in the sources used.
Formatting
  • For most of the chapter titles you use sentence case, but Larkin's "The 'War' of the Romantics" doesn't.
  • It's like "the Wars of the Roses" - treated as a phrase consisting of a couple of proper nouns. I think it's got to keep the source's capitalisation here. Tim riley talk 18:16, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are a few different formats for ISBNs which should be made consistent.
  • How on earth did I manage to do that! Now duly hyphenated. Tim riley talk 18:16, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN142 needs a full stop after pp.
  • FN 56: Browne Conor. "Robert Schumann's Das Paradies und die Peri and its early Performances": why is "early" lower case and "Performances" capitalised?
  • I was following the source. It's a one-off web page rather than a book chapter, but I don't think there's any harm in taking the minor liberty of lower-casing "performances", and have now done so. Tim riley talk 18:16, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's the lot. - SchroCat (talk) 15:46, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your keen-eyed review, SchroCat. I'm much obliged. Tim riley talk 18:16, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pass for the source review. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 18:24, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Matarisvan

Hi Tim riley, my comments:

  • I'm not quite sure about this, but wouldn't including August Schumann in the infobox be prudent?
  • He's not really notable, I think. If it were not for Robert nobody would have heard of him. Tim riley talk 14:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "musical historian": wouldn't "music historian" be better?
  • This may be an Engvar thing: cf. BrE "musical director" and AmE "music director"
  • "living composers": just "living composer", since we have only one here?
  • Translate Die Zauberflöte as done for other German language words?
  • "After a year in Leipzig": add a comma after?
  • More Engvar. In the King's English we don't automatically put commas after introductory dates. If they serve a useful function in clarifying the meaning fine (e.g. "On meeting Joyce, Beckett was impressed", to save the reader wondering momentarily who Joyce Beckett was). But they are usually superfluous. Tim riley talk 14:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link to international law as done for the other branches?
  • I considered this, but I'm not sure our article on international law is about quite the subject Schumann studied. The general import is clear enough in any case, I think. Tim riley talk 14:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do any authors discuss why Schumann named his two selfs Florestan and Eusebius? Was the first based on the character in Fidelio by Beethoven, and the second one on Greek bishop?
  • This is covered in the footnote. As it is all conjectural, it is, as discussed at the peer review, better footnoted than in the main text.
  • Link to Ferdinand Schubert?
  • Excellent suggestion. I didn't realise he had an article. Never heard of him, truth to tell, before I started reading up for the revision of the article. Done. Tim riley talk 14:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "toured to": just "toured"?
  • Without the preposition it reads as though they did tours of those cities rather than touring from one to the other.
  • Translate Waldszenen?
  • Link to Goethe on first use instead of second?
  • Yes, good. Done. I'd forgotten he wasn't mentioned alongside Schiller at the first mention of the latter. Tim riley talk 14:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Translate Allgemeine musikalische Zeitung?
  • We're missing commas at a lot of places. Would it be ok with you if I added those myself?
  • No it wouldn't: we don't need an avalanche of unnecessary AmE-style commas. Tim riley talk 14:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove the bracket after Hermann and Dorothea?
  • Yes. This is a hangover from an earlier suggested revision (see previous comments). Done.
  • Link to The Record Guide?
  • Link to Toby Saks in the Andante piece?
  • No objection, but I'm not sure that's usual in play-box legends. Tim riley talk 14:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link to Wagner and arias in the Opera subsection?
  • We have a link to Wagner earlier. I don't think anyone reading an article about Schumann would benefit from a link to "aria", though I don't strongly object. Tim riley talk 14:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "most of the minor ones": do we have the exact numbers?
  • No. We can't know the exact number because, as mentioned in the text, Clara and Brahms suppressed some of the late works.
  • Link to Edvard Grieg?
  • We mention Faure and Messager's pilgrimage to Schumann's tomb, but haven't specified where it is.
  • Is the link to Joan Chissell in the Legacy subsection necessary? We have linked to her quite a few times already. Also, was this prize at the Royal College of Music endowed by her? If so, then consider mentioning that?
  • Why have you not used sfn and sfnm tags instead of plain ref tags? Is there no consensus to do so on the talk page, or have you not opened a proposal to do so yet?
  • Refs #18, #26, #30, #53, #56, #99, #110, #126, #131, #132, #133, #138, #144, #145, #146, #147, #149, #160, #165-169: Convert to cite web?
  • Refs #48 and #49: Convert to {Cite AV media notes}?
  • Ref #110: Consider converting to sfnm and cite web refs.
  • Ref #110: Convert to Cite AV media?
  • In the biblio, you shouldn't have to use the subscription required template. I believe URL access level or access level parameters will do the job just fine.
  • In the biblio, link to Anthony Peattie.
  • Add the trans-title values for Liliencron 1875 and Maintz 1995.
  • In Marston 2007, there seems to be an error in the first name.
  • I have taken, jointly or on my own, 20 articles on composers to FA, and most of them have used the referencing format used here. You will see, above, the comment from another reviewer: "The citation style is perfectly acceptable per WP:CITE". It is not in the slightest need of "fixing". You may notice that the source review, above, is a pass. Tim riley talk 14:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is all from me. The lead and body are very well written and I can strong support it. But the source formatting is at strong oppose level, you should fix it as soon as possible. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 13:13, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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