Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Philitas of Cos

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 00:58, 7 October 2008 [1].

Philitas of Cos

Nominator(s): Eubulides (talk)


A Good Article that has since gone through peer review, with one helpful review by Yannismarou and another by Wronkiew (thanks to you both!). It's ready for a shot at Featured Article status. Eubulides (talk) 05:35, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Dr pda: Nice article. The prose is good, everything is cited, all the sources are reputable academic journals or scholarly publications, the lead is an appropriate length for the article, images alternate left and right without squeezing the text, and are not left aligned under level 3 headings, dashes are used correctly, as are  s before units, there is no mixing of citation templates and all external links check out with the link checker. However I have some queries about the images.

  • Image:Antikythera philosopher.JPG—The image description page says the photograph was taken by B. Foley in 2004, however it was uploaded by Ishkabibble (talk · contribs) in 2007 under the GFDL, and the wording of the licence tag claims that s/he is the copyright holder. How do we know the photo is in fact GFDL-licenced?
  • Image:Ptolemaic-Empire-300BC.jpeg—The file history indicates that the background image is derived from satellite data, but the image description doesn't indicate that where the satellite data comes from, or its copyright status. (I'm guessing its NASA and therefore public domain as a work or the US federal government, but this should be checked and/or explicitly stated.)
  • Image:POxy.XX.2260.i-Philitas-highlight.jpeg—The image description says "no known restrictions on publication", however the copyright page on the website listed as the source says Unless otherwise stated, all digital images of the Oxyrhynchus Papyri are © the Imaging Papyri Project, University of Oxford. The papyri themselves are owned by the Egypt Exploration Society, London. Images of them may be used for teaching and research purposes, but should not be published without the prior consent of the Imaging Papyri Project and the Egypt Exploration Society. Other digital images are © the Imaging Papyri Project, University of Oxford. If you are aware of any inadvertent misattribution or copyright infringement on our part, please tell us without delay. In addition the image is tagged with {{PD-old}}; while the text is certainly public domain, the image was taken within the last 60 years at least (going by the date of first publication) and is not PD, as the copyright statement from the website shows. You probably need to get the opinion of someone more knowledgeable about images than me as to whether we can use this image.

A couple more comments: Why is the character ϲ used for the letter sigma in the epitaph, but σ for the verses quoted, and the name of his vocabulary? Also WP:ACCESSIBILITY recommends providing a transliteration of any text written in non-Latin characters. I'm not sure how to handle this for the Greek you quote in <poem> tags (which incidentally were a new tag to me :) ); it would look ugly given that you provide the translation immediately afterwards. On the topic of WP:ACCESSIBILITY it also says that that horizontal rules, such as the one before the 1911 Britannica notice, are deprecated. Regarding the first sentence of the article, the claim "was the most important intellectual in the early years of Hellenistic civilization" definitely requires a source. Is it covered by the reference at the end of the next sentence? Also, while I understand that the lead need not be cited since everything it contains is in the article, as it stands the last sentence of the first paragraph appears to be the only part of the lead which isn't cited. For consistency it would be nice to have a cite there too.

The readable prose size of the article is around 7.5 kB, putting it in the shortest 1% of current FAs. I'm not familiar enough with the subject matter to say whether the article is comprehensive or not. If it is, I wouldn't object on length alone. On the topic of disclaimers I also haven't checked that all the doi's, ISBNs, OCLC identifiers etc point to the works they say they do.

I've added persondata, and I noticed that some ISBNs were hyphenated and others weren't so I hyphenated them all, for consistency. Dr pda (talk) 11:59, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments. Some time I'll have to learn how to hyphenate ISBNs. On to the questions:
  • Ishkabibble (talk · contribs) uploaded both Image:Antikythera_philosopher.JPG and Image:Antikythera statue front.jpg on the same day (2007-08-05); both image pages say the image pages were taken in September 2004 by Brendan Foley, with the same camera. I see no reason to think that Brendan Foley (whoever he is; there are many Brendan Foleys) is not the user in question. Is that enough, or do further steps need to be taken here?
  • I changed the text in Image:Ptolemaic-Empire-300BC.jpeg to make it clear that it's derived from a NASA image.
  • I changed the notice in Image:POxy.XX.2260.i-Philitas-highlight.jpeg from {{PD-old}} to {{PD-art}}, which is more appropriate since this is a faithful photographic reproduction of an original two-dimensional work. PD-art means we need not ask permission to reproduce that image. Of course it wouldn't hurt to ask. Is that enough, or are further steps needed?
  • That "ϲ" is a lunate sigma, not the Latin letter "c"; they are quite different letters, though they look similar. I added a footnote about that. Some sources use lunate sigma, some the modern sigma, and I thought it best to follow the source actually used here, as it's the most authoritative I found. For what it's worth, Philitas himself probably preferred lunate sigma.
  • I did say "for what it's worth" :-). But the main principle here is that quotations in Wikipedia must "preserve the original style, spelling and punctuation" (MOS:QUOTE), which is what's being done here. The cited source uses lunate sigma, so we should too. Eubulides (talk) 17:03, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see you fixed the horizontal line; thanks.
  • I added transliterations of the four lines of Greek poetry into Latin text.
  • The lead text "most important intellectual in the early years of Hellenistic civilization" was supported by Bulloch 1985, the source cited at the end of the next sentence. Bulloch has a section "Philetas and others" that leads with "The most important intellectual figure in the early years of the new Hellenistic world was Philetas from the east Greek island of Cos." I made this edit to try to make it clearer that all the claims in the lead are well-sourced.
  • As far as I know, the article is comprehensive on Philitas' life. We know so little about him that it's no problem for Philitas of Cos to contain everything we know of his life (there is no "summary style" here: this is everything). A bit more can be said about his works (as we do have about 50 lines, and only 2 are given here) and later opinion of him, so I added some; hope this helps.
Eubulides (talk) 21:59, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding Image:Antikythera_philosopher.JPG, google reveals a Brendan Foley who is a researcher in maritime archaeology at MIT. User Ishkabibble's contributions match this and some of Foley's other research interests. This, plus the fact that the image has metadata showing it to come from a digital camera inclines me to believe that Foley is the uploader. (Though it would have been nice if there were an explicit statement...).
Regarding Image:POxy.XX.2260.i-Philitas-highlight.jpeg {{PD-Art}} will probably work. I notice that policy is that this assertion (faithful reproduction of 2D image) is good for all copyright jurisdictions, which avoids any UK-specific issues. However the "When to use PD-Art" page says it can't be used for anything which "casts a shadow"; not wanting to be super-picky here but I think I can see a shadow! I'd feel more comfortable if someone more experienced in images (e.g. User:Elcobbola or User:Awadewit) could cast an eye over this one.
Regarding the sigma, perhaps my question wasn't as clear as it could have been. I recognised it as a lunate sigma, I was just wondering why you used that form in one piece of Greek text, and the σ/ς forms in other pieces. However your reply above answered this anyway.
Regarding hyphenating ISBNs, just google for isbn converter; these convert from ISBN-10 to ISBN-13, and some of them put in the hyphens at the same time.
So, assuming the Oxyrhynchus image turns out to be OK, Issues resolved. Support. Dr pda (talk) 12:17, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I asked about the Oxyrhynchus image at User talk:Elcobbola #Copyright status of photo of ancient papyrus fragment. If the shadows are a real copyright issue I can remove them with the GIMP, but I'd rather not bother if we don't have to do that. Eubulides (talk) 17:42, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I answered on the talk page to keep the FAC clear of the "detailed" copyright stuff (i.e. so the FAC can stay focused on evaluation against the FA criteria). Эlcobbola talk 15:48, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - sources look good, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:34, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comment. As described above I added added a bit more detail about his work. More context could be added, though it'd be hard to add much more specifically about Philitas, as so little is known of his life. As someone new to the topic can you suggest areas where further elaboration would be most helpful? Eubulides (talk) 21:59, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not in its present condition.
    • It begins with an egregious WP:PEACOCK violation; an evaluation as the "most important intellectual of" [vaguely defined period]. That is not a consensus view; more importantly, does it contain any content which "royal tutor" (a badly chosen word; some readers will read in tutor/paedagogus, which would be false), scholar, and poet, do not say between them.
    • The first scholar-poet. I see what is meant here; but the implication that Pindar (or Empedocles) was no scholar is bizarre. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:11, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • the heir of the royal throne of Ptolemaic Egypt. is not idiomatic.
    • The "transliterations" do not transliterate. There may be other ways to represenr και than kai, but cae is not one of them. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:20, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Philitas of Cos uses the classical-style transliteration of Greek to Roman characters, as described in Romanization of Greek. This transliterates "κ" to "c" ("Cos" being one example of this). Sarton's Hellenistic Science and Culture in the Last Three Centuries (ISBN 0486277402), which uses classical-style transliteration, uses "cai" on page 304; I assume that is good-enough precedent. Eubulides (talk) 06:35, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • That method is appropriate only for turning Greek into English (or other Western} text, not for transliterations, which should, to be of any value, represent Greek text exactly and consistently.
      • But in fact no consistent method is being used; no acceptable method would come up with esperioi, omitting the aspiration but being pedantic on the final diphthong. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:42, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please feel free to alter the transliterations of the Greek poetry to use any consistent style you prefer. I don't care what the style is. Personally, I would omit the transliterations entirely, as I think they're distracting to almost all readers; they are there only because of WP:ACCESSIBILITY.
  • Thanks for pointing out the problem with "esperioi"; I changed it to "hesperie".
Eubulides (talk) 17:03, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I changed "tutor to the heir of the royal throne" to "tutor of the heir to the royal throne". Thanks for catching that as well.
  • The cited source (written by A.W. Bulloch) wrote "intellectual figure", not "intellectual", so I changed the wording to say "the most important intellectual figure in the early years of Hellenistic civilization" which I hope is enough to remove the peacock tag. Bulloch is a classics professor at Berkeley and this source (the Cambridge History of Classical Literature) is a mainstream source; if this is not the consensus, can you please give an example of a contrary opinion among mainstream sources?
  • The phrase "royal tutor" does not appear in Philitas of Cos. Philitas #Life does say that he was appointed "preceptor, or tutor". Does this not supply enough detail so that the expert reader will know we're talking about a preceptor rather than a paedagogus? Non-expert readers won't know either term, and "tutor" is the commonly used word for preceptor. Or are you suggesting that the article also mention "preceptor" in the lead, alongside "tutor"? That would be fine.
  • The phrase "the first scholar-poet" does not appear in Philitas of Cos. It says he was "the first major writer who was both a scholar and a poet". Again, this is directly supported by the cited source, Bulloch, who writes "Philetas was the first major writer who was both poet and scholar, and secured an instant reputation in both fields." There is no intent to imply that Pindar or Empedocles were not scholars, but I don't see how the fact that they were scholars affects this issue. As far as I know, no major poet before Philitas was as famous for scholarly publications. Anyway, we do have a reliable source making the claim; is there some controversy among similarly reliable sources on this point?
Thanks for your review; hope this helps to answer the major points. Eubulides (talk) 20:08, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • You are misreading Bulloch, through not giving weight to and secured an instant reputation in both fields. Our article makes the assertion that no person combined the characteristics:
  • Poet
  • Scholar
  • Major writer
  • Before Philitas.
Pindar lacked none of these; what we say is therefore false. (The sentence from Bulloch is ill-advised, but defensible; Pindar did not obtain an instant reputation as a scholar, although how Bulloch knows Philitas did is beyond me.) Our text is therefore unsupported.
But this is not only dubiously factual: it is unencyclopedic to make any case of this kind. Bulloch is free to be a fanboy if he likes, although it would be traditional to edit the fragments first, which he does not seem to have done. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:04, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Philitas of Cos does not misread Bulloch. Bulloch clearly states "Philetas was the first major writer who was both poet and scholar,". The next clause in Bulloch's sentence "and secured an instant reputation in both fields" amplifies this claim; it does not restrict it.
  • Nor is Bulloch the only expert in the field who makes such a claim. For example, Peter Bing, professor of classics at Emory, writes 'The author of this last poem is none other than Philitas of Cos (10, p.92 Powell), whom Ptolemy I Soter made tutor to his son, the future king Ptolemy II Philadelphus, and who stands upon the threshold of the Age as a model for the new figure of the doctus poeta (the learnéd poet). Philitas is the first person described as "simultaneously a poet and a scholar" (Strabo XIV 657).'[2]
  • Other sources along similar lines could be suppled.
  • Bulloch is not a "fanboy" of Philitas. He is stating the mainstream opinion in a conservatively-edited reference book on the subject of Greek literature.
  • Pindar is not an example of a doctus poeta. His poetry was second to none, but Pindar was not famous for his scholarship, and is not commonly cited as a scholar-poet among reliable sources.
  • It sounds like you disagree with mainstream opinion, which of course is your privilege, but Wikipedia is supposed to reflect mainstream opinion, and claims in Wikipedia require support from reliable sources. So far, I see unanimity among reliable sources that Philitas is the first example of a scholar-poet.
Eubulides (talk) 20:13, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bosh. Since in addition to the above, the current edition of Pauly-Wissowa presents a different view of Philitas's life, laying much more stress on his life at Cos after his experience at court (when he taught Hermesianax), I cannot think this ready for prime time.
  • I've now checked the English version of the new Pauly, and it lays equal weight on his court experience and on his life after court. It spends 33 words on the former and 31 words on the latter. So we should be OK here after all. Eubulides (talk) 17:03, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • It makes sense to mention Strabo; I made this change to add a citation to his comment on Philitas. Of course the claim that Philitas was the first major scholar-poet does not rely entirely or even primarily on Strabo. It comes from a more modern consensus. Here's another example:
"Thus was formed that curious mixture the 'doctus poeta,' the learned poet.... There are four poets in this period, who are important not only in themselves, but for their influence on Rome.... Philetas of Cos (circa B.C. 340–circa 285), the teacher of Theocritus, heads the list, with his elegies on Bittis." Jesse Benedict Carter, Selections from the Roman Elegiac Poets (1900), OCLC 7425136, p. xi.
Other examples could be cited. I haven't found any reliable sources disagreeing on this point.
  • Thanks for mentioning Pauly-Wissowa, certainly a reliable source. It'd be helpful to use what it says. I don't happen to have a copy ready to hand, unfortunately, but I can go to a library and get one. Are you referring to the German edition or the English one? Do you have page numbers, or is this an online cite?
  • According to Pauly-Wissowa, which events does Philitas of Cos omit, for Philitas' life at Cos after Alexandria?
  • Currently, Philitas of Cos #Life gives equal weight to Philitas' life at Alexandria, and to his life at Cos after Alexandria. How does this compare to Pauly-Wissowa's treatment?
  • As I understand it from your comment, Pauly-Wissowa does not contradict anything currently in Philitas of Cos; in particular, Pauly-Wissowa is not skeptical of the claims that Philitas was the first major scholar-poet and that Philitas was the most important intellectual figure in the early years of the Hellenistic world.
    • Double bosh. Failing to assert such a claim is to contradict it by silence. Every Greek writer, especially those mostly lost, has some authority who ranks him high, even Nonnus. The position that we must find express contradiction is to make our articles a swamp of salesmanship; we need not say any such thing. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:53, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am unaware of any claim by any authority that any other person would qualify as "the most important intellectual figure in the early years of Hellenistic civilization". I'm quite skeptical that any authority would make a claim like that. I am not asking for someone who explicitly disputes Bulloch's claim for Philitas; I'm merely asking for someone who has made a similar claim for some other major figure.
  • I think it quite implausible that someone would make that claim for Theophrastus, Demetrius of Phalerum or Megasthenes, who you've suggested as alternatives: Theophrastus is more of a holdover from the previous era, Demetrius is clearly below Philitas in his influence on Hellenistic (as opposed to transitional) civilization, and Megathenes is not even within shouting distance of these other guys. That being said, it doesn't matter what I think: it matters what reliable sources say.
  • With Bulloch, we're not talking about some recent or obscure paper by a minor scholar: we're talking about a longstanding assertion in a standard reference work. Obviously you personally disagree with this assertion, but we can't base our edits on our own opinions: we need the opinions of reliable sources.
Eubulides (talk) 17:03, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • A nit: the claim is not "most important figure", it's "most important intellectual figure".
  • Bulloch's claim is about the first few years of the Hellenistic world: that period does not extend to Eratosthenes (who was born a decade after Philitas died) or even to Callimachus (a generation or two after Philitas).
  • With that in mind, would the following change satisfy your concerns (italics are new text)?: "most important intellectual figure in the early first few years of Hellenistic civilization"
    • The narrower the claim the better. It should be clear to the reader (as it was not to me) that Hellenistic excludes Greece proper. But I'll give it a fresh read; I hope FAC can wait till Monday. (Aristotle is not chiefly famous for his tutoring, so the analogy below limps on both feet, but I'll try to clear my mind.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:02, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Within that fairly narrow period, Philitas stands head and shoulders above everyone else. He served as Aristotle to Ptolemy II Philadelphus' Alexander; admittedly this is not at all as big a deal as Aristotle and Alexander, but it's the closest thing the Hellenistic world has to offer. A major statue was erected of him (or perhaps two statues; it's not clear). He founded the Alexandrian school of poetry, and was the first major example of the scholar-poet. Propertius, a major poet, invoked him centuries after he died. Nobody else in the first few years of the Hellenistic world comes close to this kind of intellectual influence. Again, this is just my opinion, and what matters is what reliable sources say: but again, we don't see anything even hinting at a dispute about this among reliable sources.
Eubulides (talk) 20:02, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Eubulides (talk) 06:35, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) By the way, I want to thank you again for mentioning the new Pauly; I wasn't aware that the English "Phi" volume came out last year (which I guess shows how out-of-touch I am...). It has some other material about Philitas' works which I would like to work into the article, but I haven't had the time yet. Eubulides (talk) 17:03, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • I am very supportive of this nomination and think it's well written. We are lucky to have Eubulides's expertise in the field. At the same time, I must say that Anderson's deep knowledge and content-based analyses are admirable. My hope is that you two can work it out, and that we get a superb addition to our FAs in this area. Tony (talk) 10:35, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I won't even try to insert myself into the conversation between Eubulides and PMAnderson. I may find some tidbits that I think are interesting though, and could well be added.. as for example "this which says "According to Hermesianax in his catalogue of poetic lovers, the citizens of Cos erected 'under a plane tree' a statue of Philitas singing of his Battis [or Bittis] (fr. 7.75-8 Powell) and... this creates a presumption that Philitas wrote first-person poetry on erotic subjects...". Ling.Nut (talk—WP:3IAR) 12:45, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. :) However, I never let people get of that easy so... 1. You should probably say he is a poet and a scholar within the first line, because the "intellectual" comment would make me think philosopher (assuming I didn't know him). 2. Lempriere classifies him as a grammarian. 3. According to Lempriere (a great old source, btw, might be online, as Jayvdb), the lead comment is attributed to Ælian (V. H. 9, c, 14) 4. "This article incorporates text from the Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition, a publication now in the public domain." I'd track down any text and rewrite it so you can remove that. Britannica is the true Wiki Devil. Ottava Rima (talk) 13:24, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Ottava Rima, for the comments. First, the issue about "grammarian":
  • I expect that the "grammarian" comes from a translation of the Greek word to French, and thence to English. For example, we have Victor Hugo writing in Chapter 4 of Les Miserables (after being translated into English) "The most prominent man in Greece for fifty years was that grammarian Philetas, who was so small and so thin that he was obliged to load his shoes with lead in order not to be blown away by the wind." However, we should prefer translations directly into English, as opposed to going through a French middleman.
  • In English scholarship of Philitas, the word is normallly translated as "scholar" or "critic" in this context. For example: "As far as we know, the first to whom the designation ποιητὴς ἅμα καὶ κριτικός 'poet as well as scholar' was applied was Philitas from the island of Cos in the last third of the fourth century and probably in the first two decades of the third." R. Pfeiffer (1955). "The future of studies in the field of Hellenistic poetry". The Journal of Hellenic Studies. 75: 69–73. Bing (cited in Philitas) translates the same phrase as "simultaneously a poet and a critic", but I think "critic" is in the minority here.
I plan to get to Ottava Rima's other comments soon. Eubulides (talk) 19:40, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not to trouble you too much (as I like the page). John Lemprière is the Lempriere that I mentioned. I meant to say "ask" Jayvdb about it if it is not on Wikisource already. He knows how to track down online editions. The work is a 200 year old dictionary, and I use it a lot because it was a very famous and very popular dictionary of classical names (i.e. appearances of names within all surviving Greek and Latin works at the time). I'm not sure what Lempriere calls him a grammarian, thats just him. :) I can scan the page if you would like to see. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:29, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I found an 1825 English edition (improved by Anthon) on Google Books, and it didn't say anything we don't already have. I expect that the 2007 New Pauly entry, which Pmanderson pointed us at, dominates even a more-recent Lemprière edition. Eubulides (talk) 22:25, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I reworded the lead to mention "scholar and poet" first thing.
  • I made these changes to remove the last traces of the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica.
  • I searched Google Scholar for "grammarian Philitas" and came up empty. I found one 1953 mention of "grammarian Philetas" (in Morris & Macgillivray 1953, PMID 13070000), but this is in a psychiatry research article and isn't authoritative for Philitas. It seems pretty clear that Philitas is not commonly called a "grammarian" in English now, though he was called a grammarian during the Victorian era. I guess terminology has changed?
Thanks again, Ottava Rima, for your helpful comments; hope this covers them. Eubulides (talk) 22:25, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by karanacs.

  • This is not really encyclopedic: "Here are two of the fifty verses of Philitas that survive"
  • "Philitas was the first writer whose works represent the combination of qualities now regarded as Hellenistic" - it might be wise to expand on what those qualities are for those of us who are unfamiliar with Hellenistic poetry.

Karanacs (talk) 21:35, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments; hope the changes have helped. Eubulides (talk) 22:25, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments I'll give a full review later, but from what I can see at first glance, a copyedit of the comma usage is needed in my opinion. An example from the lead: He was caricatured as a frail old academic so consumed by his studies that he forgot to eat and drink. A comma is needed after "academic". Juliancolton (talk) 21:25, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Question The statement in the opening para Philitas was later caricatured as a frail old academic, so consumed by his studies that he forgot to eat and drink.[4] is a fragment and out of context, not attributed to any person or period and seems so mean spirited it has to origonate from a politically motivated source. Can ye either contextualise or remove. Ceoil sláinte 02:16, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That caricature was about 500 years later, so I doubt whether it was political. It was a "thin-joke" (nowadays we prefer "fat-jokes" since obesity is now more of a health threat than wasting disease). Anyway, I made this change to attribute it to Athenaeus in the text. Eubulides (talk) 06:10, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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