Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Nikita Zotov/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:13, 17 October 2009 [1].

Nikita Zotov

Nominator(s): NW (Talk) 02:07, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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I nominated this article for FAC about two months ago, but Materialscientist noted that the research into the Russian sources wasn't really adequate. Per his advice, I withdrew the FAC and added to the article all I could from the reliable Russian sources Materialscientist found. I believe the article to be comprehensive, well-sourced, and hopefully, well-written. NW (Talk) 02:07, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support - Seems fine, but something's nagging at me. On prose only.
  • At the age of three, in 1674 or 1675, Peter had received a primer from Tsar Alexis to help him learn the alphabet;[6] two years later, Tsar Feodor suggested to Peter's mother that he begins his studies. - begin his studies
  • Zotov wore a highly unusual costume–his outfit was adorned with playing cards; he wore a tin hat; and he sat upon a barrel. - cite?
    • It is the same one as the source for the sentence after it; Massie 120. I had made that more explicit by adding a citation to the end of that sentence. NW (Talk) 00:27, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, I replaced what I had as a weak support with a support. ceranthor 23:03, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I hate to do this, but I'm removing my support. Karen brought up in better description what I thought was wrong with this article. See my comments below. Hope that you can improve the article just a bit more prose-wise! =( So sorry, ceranthor 19:22, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I hate being hypocritical, but I should still throw a weak support behind this. It's only fair. ceranthor 00:14, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I was rather critical to the previous FAC nomination, but I do support this one. The article has greatly improved, and it provides a reasonably comprehensive and neutral description of the subject (despite usual problems due to the age of relevant primary documents and their various interpretations). Materialscientist (talk) 07:48, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support on sourcing. I checked the sources before and they appeared to be fine. I saw no problems at the time. I have not had a chance to check within the past few days, but I do not think there were too many changes for there to be anything to have slipped by. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:18, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose for now by Karanacs.

  • Is there no information on his early life? When and where was he born? How was he educated? What qualities made him the best choice to be Peter's tutor?
    • All unknown, except for the last point, which I explained as best I could with the information I had in the first paragraph of "Appointment and instruction". NW (Talk) 21:10, 13 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article seems disjointed and focused much more on Peter (Zotov is not even mentioned in the body of the article until the very last sentence of the third paragraph!). I ended the article feeling as if it should have been "Zotov's actions as seen by Peter the Great". Yes, I know that Peter is the focus of the sources, but it leaves gaps in the coverage.
    • A really good copyedit may help resolve some of this problem, if the existing text can be reworded to place the focus on Zotov, not on Peter.
      • The issue is that there simply is not enough information about Zotov available. To rewrite the article to focus more closely on him, I feel that there would have to be substantial information on Zotov's early life and his actions not related to Peter. Because those simply don't exist, and most people looking at this article would likely do so because of Zotov's relation to Peter, I feel that it is appropriate to focus the article this way. NW (Talk) 00:21, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Where are the details?
    • What did Zotov do on his diplomatic mission to the Crimea? Was it successful? Was this an important assignment or a way of getting rid of him? Did the assignment have anything to do with his closeness to Peter (unclear how it relates to the last sentence of the previous paragraph)
      • Unknown. I spent quite a bit of time looking for this, but the only thing that turned up was an unreliable source and in Russian. There might conceivably something in Russian sources, but neither Materialscientist or I found it. NW (Talk) 21:10, 13 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • *What happened between 1683 and 1692 in Zotov's life?
    • Why was Zotov named highest member of the crazy club? Was it because he was Peter's best friend, because he was religious, or some other reason?
    • Was there any reaction to the group? Did his participation help/harm Zotov in any way?
    • What was Zotov's role in the torture? Did he supervise, devise punishments, actually inflict punishments? Any information on how he squared this with his deeply religious beliefs? What was the result?
      • See Materialscientist's comments below for the above few points. As for Zotov's personal involvement, this is the only thing that Massie mentions: "All of Peter's principal friends and lieutenants were involved in the carnage. Men such as Romodanovsky, Boris Golitsyn, Shein, Streshnev, Peter Prozorovsky, Michael Cherkassky, Vladimir Dolgoruky, Ivan Troekuriv, Fedor Shcherbatov and Peter's old tutor and Prince-Pope, Zotov, were chosen to participate, as a special mark of the Tsar's confidence. If the plot had spread and boyars were involved, Peter counted on these comrades to discover and faithfully report it. Peter himself, plagued by suspicion and fierce with anger, was often present and, sometimes wielding his big, ivory-handled cane, personally questioned those who seemed most guilty" (Massie 254). It could be that Zotov was just an supervisor, but he also could have inflicted the punishments. The source is simply much too vague to tell for sure, and it is the only text I have on the issue. NW (Talk) 00:21, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • What types of books did they translate into Russian? Were these just exercises or were the books published in their Russian form?
    • Beginning in 1701, Zotov had several important titles. Did he actually have responsibilities to go along with them?
    • Any idea where Zotov was buried?
  • I'm not entirely sure what is meant by this the latter of whom bore in his hands a sword and shield and acted as a religious authority.
    • I think I had been trying to make some particular point with that statement, but as more and more sources were added, it became meaningless. I have removed the clause. NW (Talk) 00:21, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Karanacs (talk) 17:19, 13 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A general answer to Karanacs. I agree that the prose of the article takes the style of its sources and focuses too much on Peter. This is up to NW. Regarding Zotov's life, I have had a dozen of similar questions (mostly not listed above) and spent about 24 hours of intensive search on the Russian web. In short, I found no data supported by reliable sources. Anyone who knows Russian history can give "reasonable", but speculative answers. For example.

  • That Zotov was named (by Peter) highest member of the crazy club was because of (i) his was one of the closest friends of Peter (this is reflected in the article) (ii) he was a crazy guy and a drunkard.
  • "Was there any reaction to the group? Did his participation help/harm Zotov in any way?" - it was a game of Peter in attempt to bring crazy fun into the life, which was previously pacified by religious rule (e.g., folk jesters were jailed right away, because of fear they divert and pervert people's minds). That Peter humiliated religion was a side-effect, not the meaning of the game (Peter fought religion much more through the government orders).
  • "What was Zotov's role in the torture?" - Standing with Peter and his actions. The torture divided the society: as I remember, streltsy had their reasons for revolt and a compassion of the general population, but the mere fact of an uprising against a tzar was a heresy and had to be punished publicly and with cruelty. This put Peter in an awkward position and a risk of losing popularity. Zotov was hardly more religious than anyone around, but he was more educated than others. Education of that time, of a person of his level was inevitably religion based as monks were the only available teachers.
  • There is no any information when he died, not to mention where. Materialscientist (talk) 00:07, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've crossed out a lot of the specifics because I believe you guys that you've looked extensively for sources. To me, though, this article does not read like a biography, and that makes it impossible for me to support. As I haven't read the sources, I can't begin to guess whether they provide any more context (no matter how small) that could better explain Zotov and his life to the reader. Right now, the article is too much "Points of Peter's life that were impacted by/contained Zotov". It looks like other reviewers don't necessarily see the same issue, however. Karanacs (talk) 18:33, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I must say that I gathered a similar feeling to Karanacs, note the "something's nagging at me". NuclearW, if you don't mind, perhaps you could contact one of the history/history bio writers and get some more comments on the focus of this article. Consulting Tony would be a good idea, too. ceranthor 19:20, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I think that for a 17th-century character like Zotov, who would be unknown but for his association with Tsar Peter in a time of widespread illiteracy, this is about as good as it can get. I think the overall focus is about right, and necessary to put Zotov's life into perspective. --Malleus Fatuorum 21:14, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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