Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Karmichael Hunt

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 03:02, 26 November 2007.

Karmichael Hunt

previous FAC

Self Nomination: I am nominating this article because I feel it is ready for FAC and belive it is of FA status. SpecialWindler talk (currently offline) 10:04, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I will respond to queries <24 hours. SpecialWindler talk (currently offline) 10:06, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport I’m afraid I’m not sure if the prose is up to scratch here. I’ve fixed a few obvious errors here and there, and there's quite a bit of choppy prose and stubby paragraphs. I think it would have benefited from a copy-edit prior to nomination. There’s a tendency to use technical terms or assume rugby knowledge; I’ve pointed out the times when I didn’t follow something.

  • “He mainly plays in the fullback position,” As well as describing his positions, a more general description of his play might be useful for non-rugby readers. Eg “As a fast, energetic player with a good positional sense, he mainly plays…” (or whatever is appropriate…); provided it has a source, of course.
    •  Not done, will find a source (that isn't biased) but
  • “Hunt's childhood hero was Michael Jordan and he dreamt of playing basketball in the United States and after moving to Brisbane, Hunt played junior rugby league for the South's club in Acacia Ridge.” The two sections of this sentence need separating in some manner; also, I don’t see the causal link between dreaming of basketball and playing rugby that it implies.
  • In Early life, again, some sort of description of what sort of player he was would be nice.
    •  Not done It's a bit hard with the sources I have, but will work on after wikibreak.
  • “an undefeated premiership in 2003” sounds good, but I’m not sure what premiership means; from context I’m guessing a league competition.
    •  Done
  • It may be an idea to emphasis that league and union are noticeably different here; non-rugby readers may not realise.
    •  Not done I could go an entire paragraph, trying to explain the difference, which is why I provide links.
      • Ah, I wasn't suggesting an explanation, but rather flagging to the reader that a distinction exists, so they can click links if they wish. Something like "At ACGS, Hunt switched to playing rugby union"J.Winklethorpe talk 10:44, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The schoolboy record table precisely repeats the information in the text, making it a bit redundant.
    •  Done Yes it does, I removed it.
  • Expand NRL the first time you use it in the main article, eg National Rugby League (NRL)
    •  Done
  • Debut season: The explanation leading to his debut seems rather abrupt. Are there any details on why he was brought in, and why he was moved to starting? If, for example, his pre-season form played him in, say so.
    •  Not done Thats in the 2nd and final paragraph of the section "Early life", and breifly mentioned in the first sentence of "Debut season"
      • I'm afraid I still don't follow it. In case I wasn't clear, its this part: "Hunt was selected to participate in the Broncos' pre-season trial games in February. He played both trial games on the wing and scored a try in the first game against the Melbourne Storm.[21] Hunt made his National Rugby League (NRL) debut at the age of seventeen" that I find abrupt. If there's some comment on why he was unexpectedly promoted, that would be great.J.Winklethorpe talk 10:44, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        •  Done(I think) - I commented that he played trials after off-season training, but his selection was surprising (considering that there is no source for why he was promoted) Damanmundine1 05:15, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • With a lack of sources, this section is problematic, clearly. I'll have to ponder it, but thatnks for working on the section. J.Winklethorpe talk 23:27, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • Well, if the coach isn't saying, then there's not much to be done. J.Winklethorpe talk 21:06, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • “He drew some criticism for his style of returning the football” – criticism requires sources, returning the football requires a clearer explanation.
    •  Done
  • “Throughout the entire year after playing 26 games, he missed only four minutes of play for the Broncos.” The reference is broken, and the sentence is a bit convoluted (Technically, it implies he missed 4 minutes after having played 26 games). How about “He played the entire 26-game season, missing only four minutes of play”; also, why not merge this short para with the one above?
    •  Done
  • “In a round 6 game” – non-rugby clarification please.
    •  Done (hopefully) I have added a link, but still may need more clarification.
      • I can't think of an elegant way to work it in; at least the link can be followed if needed.J.Winklethorpe talk 10:44, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        •  Done See if it reads better now. ~ Florrie • talk • 12:45, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • Thanks Florrie,  SpecialWindler talk (currently in control)  21:10, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
            • Ah, well, there's still other uses of "Round X" in the article. I'm not sure if the best plan is to change them all to "Week X", which is clearer, but loses the precise terminology of the game. Opinions? J.Winklethorpe talk 23:27, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
              • In that case I've reverted 'week' to 'round' and wikilinked the first instance of the word in context to Tournament. I'd suggest adding 'round' to List of rugby league terms and defining the terminology there if it is still an issue.~ Florrie • talk • 05:57, 13 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • “Timmins was charged with a grade two careless high tackle” – as above; or even just lose the “grade two”.
    •  Done
  • I think that paragraph (“In a round 6 game”) could be written more smoothly.
  • “a key play-maker in the halves” – clarification
  •  Done - possibly. Check diffs for variations on same. [1] ~ Florrie • talk • 12:55, 5 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rather than “During his injury”, how about “while out injured” or similar.
    •  Done
  • There’s nothing in ref 50 about the CCTV tape.
    •  Done removed it.
  • “the expected six weeks” isn’t required, as you’ve just mentioned the original prognosis in the last sentence.
    •  Done
  • “making one error and 83 metres in kick returns” “Hunt ran with the ball 17 times, making 196 metres.” Are these good things? Bad things? I have no context to judge with.
  • The career statistics boxes leave a lot of white space on my screen. The 3 small ones are widely separated; perhaps a single box for them would be better?
    • {{doing}} I have a smaller screen and don't observe these things, but can do.
    •  Done Put them in one column.
  • The top-right info box is rather large, and holds some fairly trivial information (school, relatives). Personally, I’d prefer it trimmed.
    •  Done Got rid of school, as it is trivial. But prefer if relatives stay there. But if you still insist. I have seen larger infoboxes
      • Infoboxes seem to suffer from bloat, that's why I'd suggest keeping them lean. The way I look at it, is that the infobox should give the vital (and only the vital) details. For example, for anyone other than a sportsman, the physical details aren't relevant. If he had a notable parent, then that might be relevant. Anyway, it's your call.J.Winklethorpe talk 10:44, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Feel free to disagree with any of the above. J.Winklethorpe talk 21:29, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Did some of the quick easier things, will hopefully finish most this arvo (AUS time). I'm hopeless at English, so me copy-editing would be a false errand. Thanks for your comments. SpecialWindler talk (currently offline) 22:48, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I think the article is improved. If some of the details asked for simply don't exist in a reliable source, then there's nothing to be done. I fixed a few WP:DASH issues while reading through. J.Winklethorpe talk 21:29, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I supported last time around, and I see no reason to change that. DrKiernan 13:27, 2 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Support - it's good, but not quite good enough IMO to pass the article. The main problems are with the article's comprehensiveness, and combined with this, the written prose - I don't think either are quite up to scratch. Let's outline the few problems that I have:
    • Prose is not "excellent"/coverage is not comprehensive: My main problem. For example, in the Brisbane Broncos section, the first sub-section (Debut season) is well-written. It includes interesting information, such as the fact that Hunt scored a try in the opening game, 4 tries in Round 17, etc. plus a whole lot of other important information which keeps a good balance. The 2007 section is almost as good; the bit in the middle, however, is not as good. It is vague and not specific as a Featured Article should be, eg. "However, Hunt did not perform as well in his second season as his debut year,[37] which the media labelled as 'Karmichael's second-year syndrome'. Though Hunt scored less tries and had less kick returns than in his debut season, he was retained in his preferred fullback position for the entire year." Did not perform as well, less tries and less kicks are not specific enough, and although they are referenced, they are far too subjective for a Featured Article's style. This sort of section should go into more specific things like tries he scored in particular games, interesting matches where Hunt was involved, etc. Take a look at existing FAs in sport like Bill O'Reilly (cricketer), where, although it's a different sport, I see a better balance and better writing overall; the paragraphs, for example, are generally longer and more comprehensive than they are here. I'm not going to point out further sections at present but I think the article could do with some rewriting and some further detailing as a whole to make it absolutely excellent. Adding a prose section on awards, etc. will help with this also (see below).
      • I've done a copy edit of the article, and changed/added to those sentences, but haven't really changed the content. It's difficult to find sources to interesting games, especially when they happened two years ago, but maybe SpecialWindler can address that when he gets back. Damanmundine1 05:15, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • The fact of comprehensiveness, is that this is still a current player. Hunt is only 20 now and still has an average 10-15 more years in his rugby league career. If I was to put as much detail in those 15 year then the article would become too long, then add later career etc. Currently though, they are in my opinion lenghth enough. But I agree, the middle needs a bit of strenghthining. Will work on.  SpecialWindler talk (currently in control)  03:24, 13 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Good work. Let me know when you're finished. JRG 08:03, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • Much better - but I have two points of contention against changing my mind: the less important one is that I'd still like more mentions of notable games for Hunt like are done in other FAs (as outlined above), and the more important point is that a rewrite of the Representative career section is needed. The paragraphs are too short and not comprehensive enough for a Featured Article. JRG 00:32, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
            • {{doing}} Will begin, I agree with the representative career section. I will do that first, over the next day or two.  SpecialWindler talk (currently in control)  09:41, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
              • Having had a more careful read, I'm now happy to say that there's enough information about the parts that Hunt has played in Broncos games, eg. tries scored, etc. - especially given that he is in an early stage of his playing career. I've removed that contention - but my point still stands on the representative career section. What you've done so far is good though. My final minor point is to put in a reference for his birthdate (from the article not the table). Do these things and I will change to a support. It's a much improved article and you should be commended on your work. JRG 23:46, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
                •  Done, though I've Rearranged not rewritten, into more relevent paragraphs and section headers. If you would still like me to add more to them, I can.  SpecialWindler talk (currently in control)  10:16, 19 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Quotes in boxes: Get rid of them. This is an encyclopedic article, not an article for a sports magazine, and the quotes should be put in some sort of context or omitted altogether. From what I can see, they are quite useful, so there's probably some appropriate places within the article to put them.
    • Honours section: the presentation of this section as a table is inappropriate for a Featured article. It should be written in prose, not tabulated. In its present form it is also unreferenced. I would rewrite the whole thing as a paragraph or two, rather than keep the table form. Some of that stuff should go at the top (like debuts).
      •  Not done OK, I removed the Debut bit because it is trivial, but not awards or records. If you see Adam Gilchrist (a FA), you can see similar table down below. Most of the info on this table, like the Adam Gilchrist article, is mentioned and referenced in the article body.  SpecialWindler talk (currently in control)  09:19, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • That's fine - but the Adam Gilchrist article does have the table referenced. I think that's important at least, even if it is put elsewhere in the article, there should be references (even if they are just duplicates of other references). JRG 08:03, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Career statistics: is there a way to improve the career statistics section? A graph perhaps?
      •  Done I have evened all the the tables width, to look better. This isn't an improvement but avoids "messyness". It is a bit hard to improve, graphs require constant work. But if you have suggestions.  SpecialWindler talk (currently in control)  09:25, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Images: a minor point, but is there any chance of a photo of Hunt playing in a game or at least another image to improve the article? If you can't find one and fix everything else up, I would be happy to pass the article, but I think an image or two more would help.
    • I'm not trying to criticise the good work - it's great and better than most articles on WP, but I think this doesn't quite meet the FA standard and I think these few things should ensure that it gets over the line in the near future. Thanks. JRG 14:13, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment - one more thing - I noticed you've used some non-website sources in your references. Following the Manual of Style you need a "references" section under your footnotes section outlining the sources you've used in full citation, above the external links section. This should only take a minute or so to do, but it's important. JRG 00:37, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm now satisfied that enough work and effort has been put into this article to make it deserving of FA status and I'm happy to support its promotion, provided that the editors who wrote this are prepared to keep working on it as Hunt progresses through his career. Excellent work everyone. JRG 05:42, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Of course. Thanks. Now 3 supports, 0 opposes.  SpecialWindler talk (currently in control)  05:54, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose—Poorly written, and is hardly among "our best work", as required—too much of this article comprises trivial information about exchanges and intentions. And no, this is not a vote, so there's no point in tallying. Here are just random issues in the prose—don't just fix these ones.
    • "competition winning team"—Where's the hyphen?
    • "Hunt mainly plays in the fullback position, but he has also been used on the wing and at halfback." First he plays, then he's "used"—very odd. Why the "but"?
      • I feel the "but" is necessary - it is to show that Hunt is primarily, but not exclusively a fullback. I changed the "used" to "plays" though. Damanmundine1 (Talk) 01:47, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Why are "2004", "2005" and "2006" linked? I was expecting it to be piped to something useful. Blue spattering—annoying to the readers.
      •  DoneLinked to the respective National Rugby League seasons. Damanmundine1 (Talk) 01:47, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Dally M rookie of the year for 2004"—So which bit is the title? Initial upper-case should indicate.
      • Not sure exactly what you mean here, but I've capitalised "rookie" and "year" and added award to indicate that this was his actual award. Dally M (Dally Messenger) is who the awards are named after. Damanmundine1 (Talk) 01:47, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Eleven" and then "15". Where's the boundary?
      •  Done Changed 'eleven' to '11'. Damanmundine1 (Talk) 02:04, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        •  Done Changed '11' back to 'eleven' as it was in the same sentence as 'four'. I've left Round numbers as numerals and measurements as numerals. Also left 'Under-14' etc as numeral as that is the accepted presentation, I would think. May be some numerals I've missed, but will try to re-edit today. ~ Florrie • talk • 05:01, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Under 14 South-East team"—Hyphen?
      •  Not done Is this meant to be removed? Damanmundine1 (Talk) 02:04, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        •  Done Added hyphen to under 14 and under 15. ~ Florrie • talk • 04:57, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • "His manager asked the 15-year-old what he wanted to do with his future. Hunt responded that he wanted to play first grade"—getting a little trivial for a gold-star article on WP.
    • "Hunt plays his rugby league for the Brisbane Broncos."—Inexplicable caption. Huh? There are several more schematic images, too, of football jerseys, are they? Why the indicative statements attached? One ("Hunt is an international representative for Australia") has no final period, yet is a full sentence. See MOS.
      • I've added the full stop (or period) to the offending sentences. Yes, they are rugby league jerseys - I guess that's not clear enough. How do you propose we make that more explicit? Damanmundine1 (Talk) 01:51, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Double period after one sentence.
    • "Hunt drew some criticism for his style of returning the football, because he would take the ball straight forward rather than going around opposition players.[5] As a result he was often targeted by opposing players, which resulted in the Broncos asking the NRL to protect Hunt with more penalties." Remove "some". "Going around" is either vague or informal. "Broncos" here, strictly speaking, needs an apostrophe. Otherwise, reword. But the biggest issue is that it's hard for a non-expert to comprehend what it all means.
      • I've changed the first sentence completely. I think it makes the rest of the passage more coherent, but I'll need a non-league person to tell me that. I've changed the rest of the passage, but I'm still unsure whether a non-league person will make sense of it.Damanmundine1 (Talk) 01:47, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • "To prevent excessive pressure on him, Bennett placed a season-long media ban on Hunt." Very loose language. Vague and unexplained, I can see the teacher's comment in the margin.
      •  Done Changed sentence completely - should make more sense now. Damanmundine1 (Talk) 02:04, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • We don't need "AU" after the first appearance of the Australian currency. See MOS.

Tony (talk) 13:36, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've also made other style changes to the article, which hopefully have improved it. Thanks for the criticism. Damanmundine1 (Talk) 01:47, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I ask you, Tony, what do you mean by "trivial". Using some specific examples can you clear out what you mean. To me, I can't find any bit of trivia, which irrelevent to his life or career. Yes, there are short bits of information which explain what hes done, such as "In 2000, Hunt made his representative debut with the Under-14 South–East team of the Queensland Rugby League (QRL), in the fullback position. In 2001, he became part of the Under-15 Australian merit side, and, upon seeing him play rugby league, Brisbane Broncos scout Cyril Connell offered him a scholarship with the club.", but to remove all that would disregard it in the "comrehensive" part of WP:FA?.  SpecialWindler talk (currently in control)  04:21, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:30, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pass & Support
    • On the grounds that it fulfills the Featured article criteria more so than other FAC articles.
Request(s):
Learnedo 05:10, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: I opposed this last time with a list of fixes required, and I'm satisfied that enough has been improved for this to be considered some of Wikipedia's best work. Daniel 07:03, 16 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - good work. ~ Riana ⁂ 07:14, 16 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • In regard to the infobox's image: I read through the e-mail exchange on the image description page, and after taking a look at the Flickr source, it looks looks copyright holder still wants to place a restriction on derivative works. Can you get the copyright holder to explicitly allow distribution and modification for both commercial and non-commercial purposes? It'd be great if you could forward the exchange to OTRS, as well, but for now, it doesn't seem like the image is free enough. -- RG2 02:42, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • On second thought, would I be correct in saying that this image shouldn't be sourced to Flickr, but rather to a private e-mail, in which the Wikipedia crop was made free, rather than the Flickr image as a whole? -- RG2 02:47, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

May I ask what is OTRS. The message exchange was over Flickr Mail not E-Mail. And I will ask the copyright owner, for that request, when I figure out what is meant by the OTRS.  SpecialWindler talk (currently in control)  10:00, 20 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You are meant to email the permission email to the OTRS system so it can be verified and permanently archived. See Wikipedia:Requesting_copyright_permission#When_permission_is_confirmed. Daniel 10:24, 20 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
But it's not E-Mail, its a seperate mail system.  SpecialWindler talk (currently in control)  09:34, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
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