Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Borscht/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 13:30, 5 June 2016 [1].

Borscht

Nominator: — Kpalion(talk) 12:32, 23 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A Jewish beet-based soup served cold with sour cream? A hearty Russian beet-and-cabbage soup that is served piping hot? Or maybe a Polish soup of fermented rye flour, which is way tastier than it sounds? You may have thought you knew what borscht is, but this article will show you it's all that and more!

It was recently promoted to Good Article status and featured as a DYK on the Main Page. I'm already out of ideas for further improvement, so I thought I'd take a shot at FA already. It doesn't seem, to me at least, to be much worse than Gumbo, currently our only featured article about a soup. — Kpalion(talk) 12:32, 23 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Images are appropriately licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:34, 23 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support from EdwininLondon

Delicious article with tantalising ilustrations. Great work. I support on prose, although I have a few comments:

  • Is the lone reference in the lead really necessary?
    • It's there to immediately substantiate a potentially contentious piece of information, as virtually all claims of specific national origin are. —

Kpalion(talk) 07:27, 25 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I see, If it is contentious then it is appropriate, I agree. Edwininlondon (talk) 22:14, 25 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Inconsistent use of comma in enumerations. For instance, there is a comma in the list ending with "onions, and tomatoes. " but not in the one ending with "acetic acid and lactic acid." There maybe others.
  • The caption for the Ukrainian version: is it known which of the many variations it is?
    • Not really. The original uploader hasn't provided this information and there are so many Ukrainian variants that I would hate to guess which one this is. — Kpalion(talk) 07:27, 25 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure about the semicolons in " from spring borscht made with spinach, sorrel and chard; to .." looks odd to me
  • some people could benefit from an introduction: Burlakoff, Perianova
  • It's not quite clear who is quoted in the blockquote "One could understand.." Pokhlebkin's quote on the previous line doesn't necessariy flow through.
    • The link between the quotation and its author was lost when Nikkimaria changed in-line quotes into block quotes. Personally, I'm not convinced that the block quotes are necessary, but I prefer to leave the decision to the reviewers. If the block quotes stay, please suggest how Pokhlebkin's name can be added back to his words. — Kpalion(talk) 07:27, 25 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • OK, so I've integrated Pokhlebkin's quote back into the paragraph and put back the words "he wrote" to make it clear it's his. I don't read MOS:BLOCKQUOTE as a strict requirement, but rather as just a possibility, so I hope this will be fine. I've left Meek's quote as a block quote; I actually like how it visually closes the article. — Kpalion(talk) 21:59, 26 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There is so much already, but I wonder if something about its iconic status could be added: references in literature or movies, if they exist. Just a thought. I will look at the sources later. Again, fabulous effort. Edwininlondon (talk) 20:05, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Edwininlondon! I'm glad you liked it. I've responded to your comments above. As for cultural references, in some cases you just know you have to mention this poem or that or movie. You can't write about bigos, for example, without quoting that delightful passage from Pan Tadeusz. There's nothing like this, though, that would immediately spring to mind for borscht. I've already added several borscht-related quotations from literature and film to the Borscht page in Wikiquote (see External links), but none of them seemed notable enough to include them in the article. — Kpalion(talk) 07:27, 25 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A few more comments:

  • Reference 34 "Chakvin, Gurko & Kasperovich (2014), p. 78" seems to point to nothing.
  • The three " Strybel & Strybel (1993), " references seem to point to nothing
  • Not sure about the format of "Pryslivya i prykazky.... "

Edwininlondon (talk) 19:06, 26 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

All fixed now. — Kpalion(talk) 21:42, 26 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Great. I support. Edwininlondon (talk) 20:18, 2 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Caption of File:Leon Wyczółkowski, Kopanie buraków I.jpg in the article claims they are Ukrainian peasants. This sounds ORish; the image itself makes no claim of nationality. The painter was Polish, through I suggest simply changing the caption to peasants to avoid any undue claims. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:29, 25 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • The scene was certainly painted in what is now Ukraine, where Leon Wyczółkowski spent several years of his life. I'll try to find the most suitable source and add a citation to the caption. — Kpalion(talk) 12:15, 25 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • Done. The Polish-language source contains a short biography of Leon Wyczółkowski, including the following information: "He then spends a shorter time in Warsaw followed by a ten-year stay in Ukraine and Podolia, from where he brings his excellent larger canvases: Beet Harvest, Crawfish Fishing and Fishermen." — Kpalion(talk) 19:35, 25 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • In 1893 it was, however, part of the Russian Empire. The peasants probably considered themselves... who knows. I do think it is ORish to call the Ukrainians. I again recommend avoiding nationality labels for the people in this picture. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:24, 26 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
        • OK, I've modified the caption to specify the place rather than the peasants' nationality. — Kpalion(talk) 08:41, 26 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Reviewed this for GAN, one of the most beautifully written articles (maybe I am biased because it is so delicious? ;) ) I have come across. This will make a good FA. Sainsf <^>Feel at home 05:27, 26 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. This is a wonderful article and I've enjoyed reading it. I like the use of the images, though I would increase the lead image to 300px. I have a concern that a lot of the sourcing isn't in English, which I suppose is inevitable, but it also isn't really accessible. For example, looking at a random paragraph:

As the home country of beetroot borscht, Ukraine boasts great diversity of the soup's regional variants, with virtually every district having its own recipe. Differences between particular varieties may regard the type of stock used (meat, bone, or both), the kind of meat (beef, pork, poultry, etc.), the choice of vegetables and the method of cutting and cooking them. For example, while the typical recipe calls for beef and pork, the Kiev variant uses mutton or lamb instead, while in the Poltava region, the stock for borscht is cooked on poultry meat, that is, chicken, duck or goose. The use of zucchini, beans and apples is characteristic of the Chernihiv borscht; additionally, in this variant, beetroots are sautéed in vegetable oil rather than lard, and the sour taste comes solely from tomatoes and tart apples. The Lviv borscht is based on bone stock and is served with chunks of Vienna sausages.[1][2]

References

  1. ^ Pokhlebkin (2004), p. 83–86.
  2. ^ Kulinariya, pp. 792–793.
The first source is this. It's not clear what that website is; is the link a copyright violation? Similarly it's not clear what the second site is or what the page numbers refer to. Google Translate didn't help. So I'm wondering how we're able to check the sources. SarahSV (talk) 20:49, 2 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Page numbers are missing from a few sources. For example (these are only examples): Burlakoff is chapters only. No page numbers for Kuhlein and Turner or for Kulinariya (Кулинария) [Cookery] (in Russian). Moskva: Gostorgizdat. 1955–58. And it's not clear what the latter is. Some ranges are large, e.g. Karbowiak (1900), pp. 28–40. SarahSV (talk) 22:53, 2 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hi SlimVirgin, thanks a lot for taking a look at the citations. Sorry, it took me so long to respond, but fixing citations is perhaps the most difficult taks in polishing a Wikipedia article. Anyway, I've added, corrected or narrowed down page number ranges, where possible. I've also removed links to those PDF files or online versions of books where I couldn't rule out the possibility that they were copyright violations. In any case, page numbers refer to print versions. In one case, where a citation was added by another user, I now asked him to provide the page number. As for Burlakoff, I only have access to an ebook version, with no page numbers. Per WP:PAGENUM, "if there are no page numbers, whether in ebooks or print materials, then you can use other means of identifying the relevant section of a lengthy work, such as the chapter number or the section title", which is what I did.
I understand that it is difficult to verify sources that are offline or not in English. I am willing to provide, per specific request and for the purpose of this review, short verbatim quotations from the cited sources and my own translations of them. — Kpalion(talk) 23:43, 12 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Kpalion, what I normally do when I review is pick a random paragraph and check the sourcing. Can you say what the two sources are for the paragraph I quoted above, and give some information about how they support the paragraph? SarahSV (talk) 02:32, 18 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Both sources for this paragraph are Russian-language cookbooks. All translations below are mine.
The relevant passages from Pokhlebkin are:
Популярный на Украине борщ имеет массу разновидностей, практически в каждой области его готовят по своему, особому рецепту.
Borscht, which is popular in Ukraine, has a great many variants; practically in every district they cook it according to their own, specific recipe. (p. 83)
Различные варианты борщей чаще всего носят название местности, в которой они появились: борщ киевский, полтавский, львовский, волынский, черниговский, галицкий и др. В чем же заключается разница между ними? Во-первых, в характере бульона: костный, мясной, мясокостный, из различных сортов и сочетаний мяса (говядина, свинина, домашняя птица), во-вторых, в способе тепловой обработки свеклы (тушеная, печеная, полусваренная). Кроме того, набор овощей для борща может быть различным.
The various variants of borscht most often bear the name of the locality in which they appeared: Kiev, Poltava, Lviv, Volhynian, Chernihiv, Galician, etc., borscht. What is the difference between them? Firstly, in the nature of the stock: bone, meat or meat-and-bone, in the different varieties and combinations of meat (beef, pork, poultry), and secondly, in the method of thermal treatment of the beetroots (sautéing, baking, parboiling). In addition, the choice of vegetables for the borscht can vary. (p. 84)
250 г говядины, 250 г баранины, ...
[In a recipe for Kiev borscht:] 250 g beef, 250 g mutton, ... (p. 85)
Борщ полтавский готовят на бульоне из домашней птицы, от других украинских борщей он отличается еще и тем, что его заправляют не только овощами, но и галушками.
Poltava borscht is cooked on poultry stock; it also differs from other Ukrainian borschts in that it is filled not only with vegetables, but also with halushky. (p. 86)
Борщ готовить на мясокостном бульоне. Свеклу тушить на масле. Сальной заправки в этом борще нет. Особенностью черниговского борща является наличие кабачков, которые, как и помидоры, не пассеруют. Уксус и мука для заправки также отсутствуют. Вся кислота поступает от помидоров и яблок.
Cook [this] borscht on meat-and-bone broth. Sauté the beetroots in oil. Lard is not added to this borscht. The defining characteristic of the Chernihiv borscht is the presence of zucchinis, which, like tomatoes, are not sautéed. Vinegar and flour for thickening are also absent. All tartness comes from tomatoes and apples. (p. 86)
Готовить на костном бульоне. ... В почти готовый борщ добавить обжаренные на масле или сале сосиски, нарезанные маленькими кусочками.
[In a recipe for Lviv borscht:] Cook on bone stock. ... In the almost ready borscht, add Vienna sausages fried in oil or lard and cut into small chunks. (p. 86)
The other source, Kulinariya, contains only recipes (no descriptions like in Pokhlebkin), so it can't be used as a seconday source here, but as a primary source it does a good job of confirming what Pokhlebkin wrote. The recipe for Kiev borscht contains both beef and mutton (Говядина, баранина), the one for Poltava borscht has "goose or chicken" (Гусь или курица), and the one for Chernihiv borscht has, among other ingredients, beans (фасоль), zucchini (кабачки) and apples (яблоки). I only have access to the online (possible pirated) version of this book, but Off-shell, who, I believe, has a hard copy, may be able to confirm this source, as well as my translations. — Kpalion(talk) 16:29, 18 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Kpalion: thanks for writing that up. It's clear that I won't be able to review this because of the language issue, but I did very much enjoy reading it. SarahSV (talk) 03:02, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the comment anyway, SlimVirgin. I didn't do this earlier, but now I notified all the wikiprojects in whose scope this article is. I especially hope that members of the Polish, Russian and Ukrainian wikiprojects will help out with source review in their respective languages. — Kpalion(talk) 06:10, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator note - Kpalion, I see you had a source review above, but as this is appears to be your first time at FAC, we will need a spot-check of sources for any plagiarism/copyvio concerns. I have requested one here. --Laser brain (talk) 02:20, 18 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Earwig's ok - has false positive due to direct quotes.
  • Garber ref used once - true to source
  • Jewish encyclopedia used twice - true to source
  • Lagnado ref used once - true to source
  • Dembińska used 4 times - true to source
  • Rothstein ref used once - true to source

I have limited access to sources but what I have seen above checks out ok. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 15:04, 2 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks to all reviewers! — Kpalion(talk) 20:26, 5 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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