Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2014 September 19

Edmund F. Brennan (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (restore)

This deletion appears rather clearly inappropriate. Brennan is a federal magistrate, and US magistrate judges are generally notable under WP:NPOL. A quick check of the Google cache[1] shows a reasonable stub, adequately sourced, with an inappropriate sentence tacked on about a third party, probably earlier this week. Rather than deleting the article entirely, the inappropriate text should have been removed, probably RevDel'd. The deleting admin, Carlossuarez46, refuses to correct this, saying on my talk page "some admin would probably ignore BLP for you". The existing text (aside from recent addition) appears to be an adequate and appropriate stub, but I can't cut-and-paste it from the Google cache without violating attribution requirements. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 22:32, 19 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: while the above complains about notability - a Strawman argument - it was an attack page, and the source had nothing about the attack even in a NPOV manner and no version without the attack. Per WP:G10, "Articles about living people deleted under this criterion should not be restored or recreated by any editor until the biographical article standards are met." Have they been? Carlossuarez46 (talk) 22:37, 19 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• It wasn't an attack page. It appears to have been a perfectly legitimate article (just look at the Google cache!) with two lines tacked on about a defendant on a case the magistrate was handling. Per WP:ATTACK, "If the subject of the article is notable, but the existing page consists primarily of attacks against the subject of the article, and there's no good revision to revert to, then the attack page should be deleted and an appropriate stub article should be written in its place." It looks like the offensive content was added earlier this week by User:Forthe1789usconstitution, who vandalized at least one related article, and could easily have been suppressed. There ought to be a "clean" version in the article history. Even in the less likely event that it was created including the offensive content, that could easily have been removed to create the "appropriate stub" that WP:ATTACK. which is policy, calls for. And that's why the subject's undisputed notabily is not a "strawman argument", because relevant policy calls for particular action based on it -- but you did something different. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 23:04, 19 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Check your facts: User:Forthe1789usconstitution created the article, lock stock and barrel. Another came by and added {{uncategorized}} to it. There was no "clean" version for that user to have added to. It was exactly as it is now: redlink. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 00:13, 20 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As should have been evident from my phrasing, I couldn't tell that. Nobody posted a notice in the creator's talk page, so I couldn't identify the creator. I don't have access to a deleted article's history. But, per WP:ATTACK, which is policy, the subject was clearly notable, and you should have created an "appropriate stub." By restoring the article and using RevDel to excise the attack -- which is on a third party, not the article subject -- policy would be satisfied. I don't have the tools to do that directly, and can't cut-and-paste from the Google cache without violating attribution requirements. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 00:28, 20 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Are federal magistrates really notable? Is this one notabl? I get that WP:NPOL says judges who hold nation-wide or state-wide offices are presumed notable, but magistrates are a long way down the judicial food chain. There are over 500 in the US. I'm not seeing any significant coverage in reliable sources: just his brief dot-point official bio on the court website, and a range of newspaper articles that mention him, incidentally, as the magistrate handing down such-and-such an interlocutory order. --Mkativerata (talk) 02:52, 20 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think we have not in the few instances I recmember held them automatically notable (as contrasted to US District Court judges and higher). DGG ( talk ) 03:40, 20 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• (I moved this here from a posting in the wrong section-DGG) Good evening. Why was my posting for Judge Edmund F. Brennan deleted? What was the offense or problem? The man is a setting Judge for a U.S. Federal Court System, has been so since 2006, and has been with the Department of Justice since 1988. In public service since 1974. Its a legitimate posting. And facts that I grabbed directly from his bio. Additionally he set free a person of interest in a California case, that I am interested in that is related to, "Operation Broken Trust" a federal ponzi scheme investigation ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Forthe1789usconstitution (talk • contribs) 00:18, 20 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• Considering this and his mistaken views on a number of policies and guidelines (based on his statements in a number of the 51 AfDs he recently filed within two days), I'm shocked that Carlossuarez46 has the mop. WP:ATTACK doesn't say -- and never has -- that nothing disparaging can ever be said about a subject or anyone else in the article; it simply stipulates that negative statements must be adequately sourced and should not be of undue weight within the article. It is, unfortunately, no surprise to me that rather than taking the two seconds necessary to remove the inappropriate text, Carlossuarez46's response was to delete the article altogether. Ravenswing 08:22, 20 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• Overturn the article was not at all close to being a G10 candidate. Most of it was a bland summary of the subject's career, referenced to [2]. The only sentence which was at all objectionable was one which said the subject was involved in legal proceedings related to a certain named criminal. Without a source that was indeed a BLP violation but it was hardly justification for deleting the page. Removing that one sentence (and using revdel if deemed necessary) would have been enough. An attack page is a page "that exists primarily to disparage or threaten its subject; or biographical material which is entirely negative in tone and unsourced". Since the article didn't say anything negative about the subject, didn't threaten the subject, wasn't entirely (or even mostly) negative in tone and wasn't unsourced it was not an attack page and deletion on these grounds was not appropriate. Hut 8.5 09:04, 20 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep deleted. I can't endorse the G10, for all the very good reasons given above. But, having pondered my question (posed above) further, and made a fairly exhaustive search for reliable sources, I don't think there is any reasonable prospect of the subject meeting our notability guidelines. It takes an overly literal reading of WP:NPOL to suggest that a lowly federal magistrate -- one of over 500 -- is notable. They are the US equivalent of registrars, who carry out the administrative functions of a court and exercise fairly narrow judicial functions delegated to them by judges. But, much more importantly, WP:NPOL aside, the significant coverage in reliable sources just isn't there. Nowhere near it, in fact. All we seem to have from his eight-year judicial career (aside from his dot-point official bio, which isn't independent) is the occasional mention, in coverage of a particular criminal case, that the subject issued a particular order like denying bail (eg [3] and [4]). No-one has written anything about Mr Brennan: who he is, what his judicial philosophy is, etc. So nor should we. Now, I'm normally loathe to turn DRV into a quasi-AfD like this. But I think it is such a clear-cut case for non-notability that we shouldn't be going through the bureaucratic hoops of restoring the article then going through an AfD.--Mkativerata (talk) 09:22, 20 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• Restore and send to afd The purpose of deletion review is not just to correct problems with articles, but to send appropriate messages to administrators that what they're doing is not what is expected. It's happened to me once, a good long time ago and the overturn made quite an impression. It's also important for all the rest of us to see that an overturn will happen when appropriate. Frankly, there should be more such brought here. I often don't because the result will be deletion anyway, but then the admin goes uncorrected. DGG ( talk ) 16:31, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• Endorse - If it was deemed an attack page and deleted, then that is within admin discretion. However, any editor who feels the subject is indeed notable may begin a draft article in their userspace, and it can go to ASfD if someone feels it is necessary. Tarc (talk) 14:05, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• It wasn't an attack page, either technically or in substance. It was a reasonable biography of a judicial official with a brief, unsourced negative comment about a third party. It didn't qualify for db-attack because the negative comment wasn't about the principal subject of the article and because, as Ravenswing accurately points out, the inappropriate content could easily have been removed, leaving an appropriate text. Admin discretion doesn't extend anywhere near this far. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 13:03, 24 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Overturn - if the page was deemed an attack page and there was no good version to restore, then deletion was correct, and I'm absolutely comfortable with admins having wide latitude to exercise that judgement. However, the gcache version linked above (and again here) shows a version that is very, very far from an attack page, and was certainly nowhere close to "entirely negative in tone" or existing "primarily to disparage or threaten its subject". That or a similarly neutral version should have been restored as part of due process by the deleting admin. Following this, we have processes for dealing with unsourced BLPs and nominating non-notable bios for deletion, none of which fall under speedy criteria and none of which were exercised here. At the very least, the deleting admin should have acknowledged this and restored the article when asked. Frankly, and with due respect, Carlossuarez46 stepped way over the line here; his poor understanding of WP:G10 and stubborn refusal to follow community guidelines when his error was pointed out show appalling behaviour from an admin. Ivanvector (talk) 22:23, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - Again, this piece needs to be restored for DRV. If it is an attack piece, restore some pared back version so we can at least see the history. DRV is not an administrators-only process. Carrite (talk) 23:05, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have temporary restored the article -- RoySmith (talk) 01:32, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Overturn. It is mind boggling that anybody could look at this article and find a way to wrap WP:G10 around it. Is it unsourced? Yes. Does it have WP:BLP problems? Yes. Would it survive AfD? Almost certainly not in its current condition, and quite possibly not even if fully sourced. But, G10? Not by any stretch of the imagination. -- RoySmith (talk) 01:26, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• Overturn and restore to this revision. {{db-attack}} does not apply to the deleted version of the article here.

  I found an article from The Sacramento Bee about the subject that may be helpful in sourcing and developing the article:

  Walsh, Denny (2006-08-30). "Federal magistrate judge appointed". The Sacramento Bee. Archived from the original on 2014-09-28. Retrieved 2014-09-28.

  Please restore to this revision where I have removed the unsourced contentious BLP information and added The Sacramento Bee article. (I have re-blanked the article pending closure of this DRV.)

  Cunard (talk) 11:39, 28 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sutton twin towns mural (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

I am aware that the votecount in the above discussion is quite clear. However, according to me and the lone person who shared my view, most of the keeps were based on reasons that were either not policy- or guideline-based, or were votes where the policy or guideline had no relation to what was in the article. I have tried to raise my concerns with the closing admin at User talk:Philg88#Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sutton twin towns mural, but he clearly has no interest in giving any further explanation than "it was a strong consensus". To me, it looks as if the closing admin did nothing but a quick votecount, which goes against the Wikipedia:Deletion guidelines for administrators (see his statement about "the will of the community"). I argue that if one follows the definition given there of "rough consensus", especially the part reading "Consensus is not determined by counting heads, but by looking at strength of argument, and underlying policy (if any). Arguments that contradict policy, are based on opinion rather than fact, or are logically fallacious, are frequently discounted." was applicable here, and that the closing admin has not followed this definition (and surely has refused to adequately explain his closure). So, despite the clear votecount, I ask for this AfD to be reopened and to let another admin decide the outcome based this time on an actual determination of rough consensus instead of a votecount. The actual debate about the validity of arguments can be found at the AfD, no need to rehash it in this nomination. Fram (talk) 09:58, 19 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

*Do not overturn keep* I notice that most of the "keeps" in the AFD cited WP:PERSISTENCE, which I must admit is actually about persistent coverage in media over a period of time, rather than persistence of a graffiti mural for over 20 years. However, I believe that the !voters actually meant to say that, if a supposedly temporary artwork is actually preserved over such a long period of time, and is praised by its local council, then it is notable enough for an article. (And they just assumed that WP:PERSISTENCE actually said this.) In this particular instance, I agree with them. I am quite sure that this unusual street art would have been mentioned in press over the last 20 years - it is just that most of these mentions are not available online. There is the possibility of merger with Sutton High Street; however, I feel that the street art is genuinely notable, whereas the High Street itself may not pass the notability threshold. Bluap (talk) 13:08, 19 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There is no evidence that the mural was supposed to be temporary, this is not some illegal graffiti that suddenly gets accepted but a project that was either condoned or supported by the council from the start (most schools don't encourage their school children to participate in illegal street art). Not every work of art in public spaces is notable, no matter how long it stays. Most cities are filled with sculptures with little to no notability, next to some works of art with lots of notability of course. Fram (talk) 13:26, 19 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment I'm not clear at the moment what the policy (sic) issues are though I see allusions such as "let's twist policy beyond recognition", "arguments that contradict policy". This is important (to me anyway) because of what it says in WP:Deletion guidelines for administrators "a local consensus can suspend a guideline in a particular case where suspension is in the encyclopedia's best interests, but this should be no more common in deletion than in any other area". Is there a reason why this would clearly be improper in the present case? Also, we seem to be lacking any policy-based (or guideline-based) reason against redirection or merging, particularly in the light of "Delete All this mural needs is a mention in Sutton High Street" in the AFD discussion. Thincat (talk) 17:50, 19 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The policy reasons are that PERSISTENCE is not applied correctly (we have three sources, spanning two days), NOTABILITY (guideline) isn't applied correctly (we have one local rewrite of the press release, printed identical in two local (versions of) papers, and one reprint of the press release in a local advert paper, so nothing beyond routine, local, one-off coverage), and arguments like "it's the summer of monuments" are completely beyond the pale (apparently the AfD should have waited until the summer was over?). The reverse objection which you raise here, that no good arguments have been made against redirection, has merit, but redirection wasn't really discussed anyway. As a compromise, it would probably have been acceptable, but both sides were rather entrenched. And of course, the DRV only focuses on whether the closing admin has correctly applied the guide for closing admins, which is impossible to determine from his closure or subsequent responses, and for which there are counterarguments (in my view, how convincing others find them is not up to me). Fram (talk) 18:13, 19 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• Endorse as within the closer's discretion. I doubt I'd have voted this way myself, but there's no content violating any significant content policy and no clear reason to reject the expressed consensus. It's not a BLP, where stricter review could be appropriate. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 18:09, 19 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• Relist. Misinterpretation of policy in the arguments, accepted without comment by the closer. The votecount is irrelevant, since most of the !votes were basically "everything is notable". Whether or not that actually means that in this case "I like it", Closers are expected to disregard such reasons. Of course, we can simply have a new afd. DGG ( talk ) 03:51, 20 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• Relist or simply start over again with a new AfD. I don't mind. These rare cases where one side of an AfD clearly has the numbers, but the other side clearly has the arguments, do put the closer in a difficult position. I think this case was a failure of the whole AfD process and it should be referred back to AfD for another go. That's a safer course than overturning to "delete". I'll have my !vote there. --Mkativerata (talk) 04:03, 20 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• Overturn to "No Consensus". I'd be fine with a relist but I think that it is worthwhile to note that the close and not only the debate was problematic. WP:PERSISTENCE does not apply by it's terms and Carptrash's comment is a non-argument. Excluding those, the other Keeps are weak, but not in my view invalid. That leaves a couple of reasonably strong, policy based deletes and some week keeps. I think Bencherlite's suggestion of coverage in a wider context is a good idea, but whether that means merging, redirecting, or even deleting this article is a question to be decided at AfD rather than here. Eluchil404 (talk) 03:32, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• At most, overturn (from "Strong consensus to keep" to "Rough consensus to keep). Well within admin discretion. The close reflected the discussion. If the communty is getting something wrong, a better explanation is needed, not an adminstrative overrule. Advice at Wikipedia:Renominating for deletion applies. Wait a few months and make a more persuasive deletion argument. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:59, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think a more persuasive deletion argument is useful if people are allowed to vote "keep" with whatever reason they wany, no matter how wrong it is (for this case). All that is needed is gathering the most voters, something which AfD was designed to discourage. Fram (talk) 07:04, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • What's very useful is participants in the discussion pointing out the weakness of others' !votes. This can be especially powerful if laid out in a fresh nomination. The closer is encouraged to discount !votes validly criticised in the discussion, and discouraged (WP:SUPERVOTE) from performing their own original analysis of !votes. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:41, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - everyone argued keep (although Bencherlite labelled their comment "delete", the argument doesn't support deletion, but merging (which is fundamentally keep outcome). I couldn't in good conscious close a discussion as delete when everyone who commented favoured keeping (excluding the nominator, but still). I would have probably gone with "no consensus", but I don't think I can explicitly say "keep" is wrong. "Strong keep" is too much. But ultimately, piddling between the various (adjective) keeps isn't worthwhile, so Endorse? WilyD 11:41, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• Endorse (after commenting above). Taking WP:Notability as a strict set of rules, I expect this topic fails but, of course, it is against the guideline to treat the notability criteria in a rule-based manner. I doubt the reporting being local is in itself of great significance. Wikipedia:Notability (local interests) is of interest although that is a failed proposal. I can't see policy grounds for deleting the article. So, I don't think a relist at AFD would be at all abusive (the discussion was weak on both sides) but I wish a redirect (after merging additional material?) was being pursued rather than outright deletion. Thincat (talk) 13:14, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• Endorse outcome - although a more detailed analysis by the closer may have been appreciated, this result was within the closer's discretion and I don't see any procedural reason to reopen the discussion. At the far end, I might have called this "no consensus for deletion" which would result in a keep anyway. Ivanvector (talk) 22:43, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• Endorse close - One might differ with use of the adjective "strong," but pretty clearly a consensus that this meets GNG, which it does. Carrite (talk) 23:08, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]