Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 April 23

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April 23

Category:Heat waves by location

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) Diverging Diamond To the left! To the right! 15:30, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Unnecessary category layers. –Aidan721 (talk) 23:57, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Winter heat waves

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) Diverging Diamond To the left! To the right! 15:30, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT (1 article). No need to merge in other direction. –Aidan721 (talk) 23:56, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:19th-century heat waves

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) Diverging Diamond To the left! To the right! 15:31, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT. No need to merge since already in sub-cat of century natural disasters. –Aidan721 (talk) 23:53, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Tribes of pre-Roman Gaul

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Keep (non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 20:28, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:C2B Per precedents "Germanic tribes" and "Slavic tribes" renaming ancient / early medieval "tribes" to "peoples". Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:26, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Nederlandse Leeuw Can you explain some of your rationale for this suggested change? I am not sure if WP:C2B on its own is clear enough. Thank you. FULBERT (talk) 23:48, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've linked to the precedents above, but here are the full links: Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_April_10#Category:Germanic_tribes and Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_April_10#Category:Slavic_tribes. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 00:03, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Additional reasons for "tribe" specifically can be found at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_April_9#Category:Celtic_tribes. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 00:05, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am not sure. This is more a matter of common name than a matter of precedents. The previous discussions were about merging (twice) and C2D (once), not about entirely abandoning the word "tribe". Marcocapelle (talk) 05:47, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. As formulated this move is solely about the use of the word "tribes", which the nominator has made a point of arguing about in one of the linked discussions and elsewhere. None of the "precedents" cited discuss the supposed anthropological viewpoint that the word "tribe" is insulting and pejorative and must therefore be replaced by a blander term. It is somewhat tiresome to have to argue over and over again that the common use of terms like this in historical writing to refer to people who have not existed since antiquity is not intended to be pejorative, and that we ought not to ascribe racial animus to such writing, or seek to purge the language of words that were never intended to offend anyone in a context where one can only take offense by imagining one's self to be a representative of long-vanished groups, and overlaying twenty-first century attitudes toward nineteenth-century colonialism to first-century peoples. P Aculeius (talk) 16:29, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment -- I had occasion to look up Caesar, Gallic wars, a few months ago. I found that the word conventionally translated as tribe is civitas, which literally means a citizenship, but is also the origin of our term "city". Interestingly in Gaul, the tribal names usually survive as those of cities, with the formal names of the cities (e.g. Lutetia - Paris) having been lost. Civitas seems to refer to the territory and its people, making it similar to a nationality, except that they were not necessarily sovereign. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:50, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose "Peoples" is extremely vague and should be avoided. Dimadick (talk) 03:53, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Confederate States of America legislation

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Merge, but retain edit history of older page. - jc37 08:14, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: What is the difference? Nagsb (talk) 21:45, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:16th-century Austrian historians

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. No quorum. (non-admin closure) Diverging Diamond To the left! To the right! 15:33, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: merge, with the exception of Wolfgang Lazius these were people from the Holy Roman Empire who spent part of their life in Austria (which btw was just as well part of the Holy Roman Empire). The article Wolfgang Lazius may manually be added to Category:Austrian historians and Category:16th-century Austrian writers. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:46, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:15th-century Austrian historians

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. No quorum. (non-admin closure) Diverging Diamond To the left! To the right! 15:36, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: merge per WP:SMALLCAT, just a single article in this category. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:38, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Gymnote (submarine, 1888)

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Diverging Diamond To the left! To the right! 15:38, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Category for a single French submarine. From what I understand, this submarine isn't part of a wider class of submarines based on the same model, so there's no potential for growth. (The counter-argument is that we could add the name of three notable designers who participated in the creation of Gymnote.) Pichpich (talk) 17:52, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Former polities in the Netherlands

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 27#Category:Former polities in the Netherlands

Category:St. Anthony's High School (South Huntington, New York) alumni

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 27#Category:St. Anthony's High School (South Huntington, New York) alumni

Category:Former town councils in the Republic of Ireland

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 14:51, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: In order to preserve the legacy of the previous category having been created more than a decade ago, I would suggest that this one I created recently be deleted and that Category:Town councils in the Republic of Ireland be immediately renamed to this title. A little cumbersome, but I think fair to the work of Laurel Lodged in creating the initial category. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 05:30, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 14:13, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Swiss colonels

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:29, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: In Switzerland, holding the grade of colonel (or lower) is generally WP:NONDEF. The Swiss Army is a militia, meaning that all men are required to serve, and very many hold officer ranks (e.g., I'm a captain, and two people in my team at work are majors, but nobody cares about that in civilian life). Up until the 20th century, it was almost de rigueur for senior Swiss politicians and business leaders (i.e. the people we tend to have articles about) to also hold the grade of colonel in the militia. But they have articles because of their civilian accomplishments, not because of their military rank, which is if at all only mentioned in passing. Therefore, categorization of people at this rank is unhelpful. Only people at the general officer level tend to be professional military officers and are appropriately categorized as such. Sandstein 07:46, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The personal and subjective appreciation based on a lower own rank is not a weighty argument to delete a category. We are talking about the Swiss armed forces and their military ranks, not just about the Swiss Army. Please do not generalize. The rank of colonel is part of the high command, as in any other country, regardless of the type of recruitment they receive. As reference, I translated the category Oberst (Schweiz) from the Wikipedia in German to create this category in English. Igallards7 (talk) 08:17, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Colonels are field-grade officers, normally regimental or battalion commanders, not part of the "high command". But what matters for our purposes is whether being a militia colonel is a defining characteristic for a typical Swiss business leader or politician; in my view, it generally is not. Sandstein 12:32, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As you say, the rank is clearly verifiable. I question whether it is defining enough to aid navigation. - RevelationDirect (talk) 03:18, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: The rationales of the delete !votes have all been questioned.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 14:12, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'd favor deleting that as well in a future nomination. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:20, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is nothing other than well-known Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions. I've not wasted my time responding to circular reasoning and proof by assertion, and am criticizing the lack of closing. No one person should be able to hijack a discussion by repeatedly complaining about each and every point raised by each and every participant.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 04:26, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Austrian knights

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 27#Category:Austrian knights

Category:England national youth football team

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) Diverging Diamond To the left! To the right! 15:40, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: To plural as it covers multiple teams. Pelmeen10 (talk) 11:59, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Legal history of the Ancien Régime

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename Category:Legal history of the Ancien Régime to Category:Law of the Ancien Régime, and Merge Category:Old French law to that target as well. - jc37 08:35, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Is there a distinction? French, Occitan and Russian Wikipedias also each have two categories,[1][2] but I can't see what is meant to distinguish them, and they may all be duplicates created accidentally. "Legal history" categories mostly exist for current entities; siblings in Law by former country mainly follow the pattern Law of East Germany, but e.g. Roman law where there is a lead article. In this case there is a lead article Old French law. – Fayenatic London 16:06, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: reverse merge not tagged
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, William Allen Simpson (talk) 06:40, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Kievan Rus culture

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Culture of Kievan Rus'. (non-admin closure) William Allen Simpson (talk) 06:41, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:C2D Culture of Kievan Rus'. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 04:42, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Governments of the medieval Islamic world

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: withdrawn by nominator. (non-admin closure) William Allen Simpson (talk) 12:50, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:CROSSCAT WP:ARBITRARYCAT WP:OR "the medieval Islamic world" wasn't a "country", it's a cultural-historical concept that has no firm geographic borders and certainly had no political unity (Category:Medieval Islamic world's main article Medieval Islamic world redirects to Islamic Golden Age, which obviously wasn't a "country"). It shouldn't be in the Category:Government by former country. All these are arbitrary containercats (all created by the same user in the last 3 years) that we don't need, and can delete without problem. (The only exception is Category:Diplomats from the medieval Islamic world, I recommend a manual merge for that one; though there is no obvious alternative, the category as such cannot stand). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 03:00, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
PS: I note that several of these pages use the Template:Medieval Islam Category, also created by the same user: {{{1}}} who lived under the rule of Islam during the Middle Ages, irrespective of their religion, ethnicity or language. I think this serves to prove just how WP:ARBITRARYCAT WP:OR it is; "under the rule of Islam" is extremely vague and can mean whatever you want it to mean. I think we could also add "irrespective of their country/state/nationality", because "the medieval Islamic world" wasn't a "country"/"state"/"nationality". I'm adding WP:CROSSCAT to the rationale now, this is becoming a catch-all for all things vaguely medieval-islamic-world-y. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 03:29, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
PPS: This goes much deeper: Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Medieval_Islam_Category. I'll think I'll leave it here for now. We can do follow-up nominations once we reach consensus about this nom. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 03:33, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am not so convinced of this one. Geopolitically in the middle ages, in the Mediterranean and beyond, there were mostly two blocs divided by religion. While the Christian bloc largely coincides with a modern continent (Europe) so we do not need a separate category tree for it, that is not the case for the Islamic bloc (bits of Asia, bits of Africa, bits of Europe). Besides in the Islamic bloc no stable countries were established, to the extent that we mostly refer to dynasties rather than to countries, and dynasties were often quite shortliving. So an overarching category is quite useful. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:09, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Unfortunately, I shall have to disagree. Quite strongly, in fact; these sorts of generalisations are not what Wikipedia is for. To contrast the idea of the "medieval Islamic world" as if it were a "country", even if we were to accept this idea of a "bloc", no one would claim that (the) "Christian medieval Europe/world" was 1 single "country"/"state"/"nationality". The word "Europe" was barely used in the Middle Ages, and "Christendom" didn't cover all of it (lots of vast regions in the north and east were still predominantly pagan by 1500, lots of regions in the south and southeast mostly Muslim etc.), and also covered some areas outside Europe (such as Outremer, the Eastern Settlement in Greenland etc.). Christendom itself has also never been a religious/ecclesiastical "unit" and has been plagued by schisms ever since it sprang up in the 1st century (until this day we've got popes, patriarchs and whatnot, so there wasn't a single head of state or overarching generally accepted leader/ruler etc.). I could go on, but really, this is just as generalising as all those language family categories that we have been deleting. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 10:47, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2018_August_8#Category:Christianity_of_the_Middle_Ages serves as a relevant precedent in this case.
The September 2022 rationale for moving Category:Medieval Islam to Category:Medieval Islamic world was The category is about a civilization rather than a religion, but that's incorrect; it was in the Category:Religion by period tree.
By the way, the parent Category:Post-classical civilizations that was created only a few months ago (in December 2022) is also a highly WP:SUBJECTIVECAT and WP:ARBITRARYCAT. E.g. why are Category:Christendom, Category:Feudal Japan etc. in there? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:44, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@William Allen Simpson Withdrawal seems like a good idea, yes. How do I do that as nom? Do I just "vote" Withdraw while striking the nom or something? I've not done this before. Thanks. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:48, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I handled it for you.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 12:53, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Rulers of Aleppo

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) Diverging Diamond To the left! To the right! 15:42, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:C2D main article List of monarchs of Aleppo. 'kings, emirs and sultans' = monarchs. Governors belong in Category:Governors of Aleppo. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 02:38, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Burid rulers

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) Diverging Diamond To the left! To the right! 15:42, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: per WP:C2B List of rulers of Damascus#Burid emirs, the bios themselves, and Burid dynasty repeatedly calling it the Emirate of Damascus; Government: Emirate; title_leader: Emir. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 02:03, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Heat waves in Japan

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) Diverging Diamond To the left! To the right! 15:44, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT (1 article). –Aidan721 (talk) 00:25, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
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