Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 November 8

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November 8

Category:National emblems of Argentina

Category:National emblems of the Republic of Ireland

Category:National emblems of Japan

Category:National emblems of the United States

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The result of the debate was rename/merge as nominated --Kbdank71 17:41, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Rename all to match the other subcategories of Category:National symbols by nationality. Metthurst 23:01, 8 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:UK Discrimination law

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The result of the debate was rename/merge as nominated --Kbdank71 17:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:UK Discrimination law to Category:Discrimination law in the United Kingdom

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Category:Faculty of Furman University

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The result of the debate was rename/merge as nominated --Kbdank71 17:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Rename to Category:Furman University faculty, convention of Category:Faculty by university in the United States. -- ProveIt (talk) 21:23, 8 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Female life peers

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The result of the debate was no consensus. I'm not even going to bother trying on this one. Too many strikeouts, undoing of strikeouts, duplicate sections, ad hominem attacks, I'll be honest, I couldn't even follow what was going on. If someone else wants to try to find consensus in this, feel free to overrule me and good luck. --Kbdank71 17:53, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Female life peers (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
This is now two separate votes please place all votes after the subheadings below. Nonomy 02:05, 10 November 2006 (UTC) Delete An ever higher proportion of life peers are female and their gender is of little relevance to their work. Life peers are appointed (officially in any case) for their expertise in various areas of public life, and men and women have the same duties. Nonomy 20:33, 8 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If the nomination is good faith, then we should also upmerge all the entirely-male categories of peers, to Category:Peers. (comment by User:BrownHairedGirl) [See If the nomination is good faith, then we should also upmerge all the entirely-male categories of peers, to Category:Peers:
I assume good faith, and trust that the nominator will suport the deletion of these categories too. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:24, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Note: Representaive peers were peers from Ireland and Scotland elected to sit in the House of Lords after the Acts of Union; they were all hereditary, and hence entirely male. Likewise, the perrs of England (i.e. pre-1707) were all male, as were the 1707-1801 Category:Peers of Great Britain. If I have missed any other all-male categories, I trust that soneone else ill add them to this CFD. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:41, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
User:BrownHairedGirl's riduculous attempt to conflate this nomination with her nomination of some fundamentally different categories, which I have seperated out). For avoidance of doubt I am completely gender neutral and call of Category:Male life peers to be pre-emptively blocked. Nonomy 20:14, 9 November 2006 (UTC)][reply]
I have reverted the splt, partly to avoid confusion, but also because you also removed from this CFD ALL of the contributions of those opposed to this CFD. As to gender neutrality requiring a mirror category of male life peers, read Wikipedia:Categorization/Gender, race and sexuality#Other_considerations: "That category, however, does not need to be balanced directly against a "Male heads of government" category, as historically the vast majority of political leaders have been male by default". --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:52, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
then let's have two complete sets of votes. At the moment I find it just about impossible to believe that you are acting in good faith. I will put you to the test by listing all the votes where I believe they belong. Nonomy 22:08, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

{more abuse deleted} --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:06, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

*Delete per nom. Calsicol 13:54, 9 November 2006 (UTC) *Delete User:BrownHairedGirl hasn't disguised the role of this category as a piece of feminist campaigning very well. Wikipedia is supposed to be neutral (see Wikipedia:Neutrality). Landolitan 20:33, 9 November 2006 (UTC) *Delete per Nom. Their sex is irrelevant. The comparable male category is indisputably Category:Male life peers. - Kittybrewster 20:34, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

{undo strikeout of next vote} --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:06, 10 November 2006 (UTC) *Strong keep: the nominator should have read Wikipedia:Categorization/Gender, race and sexuality#Other_considerations, which is pertinent for several reasons, and should also have checked some figures.[reply]

--BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:24, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

{undo strikeout of next vote} --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:06, 10 November 2006 (UTC) *Keep, don't merge, don't delete, do read WP:POINT. Fys. &#147;Ta fys aym&#148;. 16:24, 9 November 2006 (UTC) *KEEP of course, and look, some of the the usual suspects are here calling for the delete despite the fact that consensus on the issue of categorizing female politicians by sex has been reached. I do try to assume good faith in circumstances like this of course, but it gets more and more difficult when there are these constant backdoor attempts to get around consensus through the CfD process. Otto4711 16:30, 9 November 2006 (UTC) {undo strikeout of next vote} --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:06, 10 November 2006 (UTC) *Keep - of course - useful analysis Brookie :) - a will o' the wisp ! (Whisper...) 17:50, 9 November 2006 (UTC) [reply]

  • This is a cynical use of bad faith tactics BrownHairedGirl must know perfectly well that these additional categories are not comparable. It appears that her only concern is to get her own way. I have separately these completely non-analogous cateogories. These peers by degree categories are in any case not single sex as they can be used for female peers in their own right. (Queen Victoria thought a female who held a dukedom in her own right was a duke, not a duchess.)Nonomy 20:05, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

*Keep the peers by degree categories of course. The comparable male category is indisputably Category:Male life peers. I have separated the two discussions as BrownHairedGirl's manipulativeness is totally out of order. Nonomy 20:10, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

*Keep It is essential to have separate categories for each of the five tiers of the peerage and they have been around for a long time. Carina22 21:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Vandalism: I just reverted a second attempt to remove ALL the oppose votes from this CFD. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:58, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment This vote is broken and should be closed, since it has merged two nominations for some time and some User hadn't known what they voted for. If both nominations are meant seriously, keep it splited please. ~~ Phoe talk 22:31, 9 November 2006 (UTC) ~~ [reply]
    • I think I had fixed it, though you have reintroduced confusion by cancelling out my strikethroughs. The reality is that there is only one category under debate. I don't think BrownHairedGirl really wants to delete the categories for different levels of the peerage and I don't see who else would as they are such obvious basic long-established categories. It was purely a spoiling tactic. If this debate is not allowed to run its course she will have succeeded in stopping a vote because she didn't like the potential outcome and that is not a precedent that we can afford to allow surely? Nonomy 22:37, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • I would like to keep both them and the female-only category. But if you want to delete a female-only category, then it's only balanced to delete categories which subdivide peers into groups to which only men belong (save for a few historical exceptions). Either classify them all as peers, or retain the female-only category as per existing guidelines.
      • THe male-only categories are of no greater enclopdic interst than the female-only ones, and the degrees of rank do not significantly affect a peer's role in the House of Lords. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:36, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Sorry but I wanted to fix my spelling only (knoww to known). It seems we have saved in the same time. ~~ Phoe talk 22:39, 9 November 2006 (UTC) ~~ [reply]
PLEASE DO NOT ADD ANY VOTES HERE. PLEASE VOTE IN THE TWO SECTIONS BELOW.
Votes on Category:Female life peers
This category shoud be considered with ‹The template Category link is being considered for merging.› Category:Suo jure peeresses, another category of female peers. They should be be either kept or deleted together (thanks to Kittybrewster for pointing me in the direction of this category, which is effectively a category of female hereditaries). --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

--BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:24, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

      • Response. There are many suo jure peeresses who don't yet have a wiki entry. E.g. 11th Countess of Kintore. It would be great if they were to be given an article rather than count merely those for whom an article has been created. "78 in history" is a gross distortion of reality, as is "n Barons - all male". - Kittybrewster 21:58, 11 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Response same goes for the overall tally of 2,000, above. All these categories are incomplete, but I don't see much reason to assume that one is significantly more incomplete than the other, so the ratios still make a reasonable guess. The situation remains that excepot for a few specially provided peerages, descent is through the male line. If that isn't a gendered category, I don't know what is. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:20, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Votes on the additional categories nominated by User:BrownHairedGirl
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Category:American punk musicians

Category:American punk musicians by instrument

Category:Canadian punk musicians

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The result of the debate was rename all. the wub "?!" 14:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above three categories do not match the top category (Category:Punk rock musicians) the article punk rock or the other subcategories.

Piccadilly 16:51, 8 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Rename all for consistency within Category:Punk rock musicians by nationality and between punk rock articles on WP. Prolog 22:26, 8 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rename per above. Cbrown1023 22:45, 8 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:People from Richmond

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The result of the debate was rename/merge as nominated --Kbdank71 17:55, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Rename to Category:People from Richmond upon Thames to match Richmond upon Thames per June 21 discussion. -- ProveIt (talk) 16:25, 8 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:People from Kingston

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The result of the debate was rename/merge as nominated --Kbdank71 17:56, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Rename to Category:People from Kingston upon Thames, to match Kingston upon Thames per June 21 discussion. -- ProveIt (talk) 16:19, 8 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Turkish saints

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The result of the debate was no consensus --Kbdank71 18:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, All of these saints are Byzantine saints, the name Turkish saints is incorrect. Even a category Saints from the territory of modern Turkey would be redundant.--Eupator 16:15, 8 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, i.e. move all to Category:Byzantine saints. Strictly speaking, we may be dealing here with saints who are even older than what is conventionally called "Byzantium" in the political sense (pre-4th century AD), but their Late Roman cultural sphere is at least closely continuous with that of Byzantium (same culture, same ethnicities, same languages, same empire), so that any element of anachronism is far less severe if we put them there than if we put them into "Turkish". Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:26, 8 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, per above. (i have no idea what the creator had in mind...). Hectorian 21:26, 8 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per above. Cbrown1023 22:45, 8 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per above. All these saints predate the Turkish conquest of Anatolia and can't be said to be Turkish by any reasonable definition. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:44, 8 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strongest keep. I'm the creator. I created it specifically because Category:Byzantine saints isn't appropriate for all the people therein (I created that category too, and most of the others in Category:Saints by country). According to my dictionary "Turkish" refers to someone from Turkey (Kurds, Jews, Greeks, etc), as well as someone who is ethnically a Turk. I created this cat for consistancy with the other subcats there; all the others are used for both saints from that modern country, and from the territory that existed there beforehad (for instance Gaulish saints go in Category:French saints; Dalmatian saints go in Category:Croatian saints, saints from the colonial US go in category:American saints; etc.). I knew this was going to throw some people for a loop, and I brought it up at the Saints wikiproject, but no one commented. Initially I created the Byzantine saints category to fit all those saints who lived in what is now Turkey (and it is a lot of them), but that was unsatisfactory for several reasons. First, it should also include individuals from what is now Greece, which would be redundant; additionally the Byzantine Empire included parts of the Middle East, North Africa, and Eastern Europe. What we really needed was a category specifically for those people who lived specifically in the area we now call Turkey. Finally, and most importantly, many of those people lived before or after the Byzantine Empire. So I finally settled on just being consistant with the other Saints by country cats, and explaining who should be included in the summary at the top.
My final point is, whether or not you agree that all those people now in the category, there are in fact a few saints from the modern Turkey (mostly Eastern Orthodox; there's still a Patriarch of Constantinople, remember). It would be inappropriate to delete the category because we can't agree on who else should go in there with them. So whatever is done, do not delete the category.--Cúchullain t/c 23:54, 8 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment That other categorizations are wrong seems to me a very inappropriate criterion for categorizing other articles wrongly. If Dalmatian and Gaulish saints are incorrectly made Croatian and French, then that should be fixed. But these are different situations. We do not have modern descendants of the ethnic groups affected who would object strongly, as ethnic Greeks would to being labeled as Turks. (Residents of the American colonies were Americans regardless.)
However, Category:Byzantine saints is plainly inappropriate too. Fact is, nationality is a slippery concept in ancient times before the rise of the modern nation-state, and especially within the territory of a multi-ethnic, multi-national empire such as the Roman Empire. For antiquity, it might therefore be better to identify by region rather than nationality. I suggest Category:Anatolian saints for those resident in Anatolia but prior to the misnamed "Byzantine Empire".
I believe there may be a few Turkish saints, martyrs of their post-WWI ethnic cleansings perhaps, but unless we actually have any articles on them my delete vote above stands. Those saints I know of in Turkish territory were not residents of modern Turkey, but of the Ottoman Empire. If we currently have any articles that fit, I would therefore change my vote to Rename Category:Ottoman saints. TCC (talk) (contribs) 00:08, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Renaming to Anatolian saints is acceptable to me for most of the articles currently there (that's basically what I was going for anyway, though part of Constantinople is in European Turkey and not Anatolia, I think this is probably minor). The Ottoman category would face the same problem Byzantine saints has (or Ancient Roman saints for that matter) in that the Ottoman Empire was really frickin' big; at any rate Ottoman saints from what is now Turkey could just go in the Anatolian saints cat with the others. I would like to know, however, what we do for other categories about people from the country of Turkey. Are they generally sorted by ethnic group rather than nationality?--Cúchullain t/c 00:24, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure. On reflection, I think what we really need to do is to look at each case individually and categorize them according to whatever consensus we can find in reliable sources. For example, I don't think you'll find anything at all in any acceptable source that says St. Basil of Caesarea (for instance) was "Turkish". I could say the same about hundreds of early saints from Asia Minor, not even excluding St. Paul. (Born in Tarsus, now in Turkey.)
On the other hand, look at St. Irenaeus of Lyons. He's categorized under both Category:French saints -- which is where Lugdnunm (Lyons) is now located -- and under Category:Greek saints as he was born in Smyrna -- now İzmir, and in Turkey, but a Ionian city that had been primarily Greek for a thousand years before he was born. As bishop of Lyons he probably spoke the local Gaulish Latin dialect in daily speech; certainly he wrote in Greek. Nothing French there, except that France is certainly proud to consider him her own. Even though "French saint" isn't particularly applicable, it seems to me that there's nothing wrong with placing him there. Does it seem even remotely useful to categorize him as Turkish ?
Or as long as we're on French saints, look at St. Denis. Born in Italy (same then as now, understood broadly as the region and not the modern nation-state) he was bishop of the Parisii, a Gaulish tribe that lived at Lutetia, which later was renamed for its inhabitants. He's categorized as a French saint, but to not do so would make no sense as he's considered the patron saint of France, a polity not to be founded until the invasions of the Germanic Frankish tribes. One could justify calling him an Italian saint, but it doesn't seem to make sense at first glance.
So I think it sometimes makes sense to categorize historical saints according to the political body now occupying the territory where they once lived, but not always. TCC (talk) (contribs) 06:05, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Agree with Csernica. I have not much of a problem with anachronistic categorizations in cases where there is at least a strong element of cultural continuity between the historical political/ethnic/geographic units and the modern ones. With Anatolia/Turkey, this element is missing. As for parallels in other categories: Look at Category:Turkish people and its subcats, I don't see any parallel case there. We certainly don't have Homer under Category:Turkish poets. As for Cuchullain's insistence on having a category corresponding to the geographical unit that is today Turkey: well, why should we need one? I don't really see why "people from the territory that is today Turkey", or "people from in and around Anatolia" would be a particularly interesting categorisation for people from late antiquity anyway. But I won't strongly object if people really want Category:Saints from Anatolia. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:41, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Vijay's films

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The result of the debate was delete. --RobertG ♬ talk 10:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, and permanently block Category:Films by actor. Kill it now, before it spreads. -- ProveIt (talk) 16:00, 8 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Hillsong - Live praise & worship albums

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The result of the debate was keep since there are over 50 Hillsong albums altogether, and this appears to be a well defined series. the wub "?!" 14:18, 15 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Merge into Category:Hillsong albums, convention of Category:Albums by artist. -- ProveIt (talk) 15:43, 8 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep this category. It is for all of Hillsong's albums in the Live Praise and Worship Series, and that is how it is catergorised on their website [3] Mover85 05:16, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: The super-category is being split into sub-categories including this one, which will contain several entries. Marky1981 23:24, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to Category:Hillsong albums, as per User:ProveIt. Lankiveil 02:19, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Television shows in the Philippines

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The result of the debate was merge. the wub "?!" 13:17, 15 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Television shows in the Philippines into Category:Filipino television series

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Category:Catalan-speaking countries

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 17:42, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Catalan-speaking countries (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Delete. During a previous debate it was decided to delete Category:Romanian-speaking countries, partly since it only contained (and only could contain) two articles. A number of editors pointed out Category:Catalan-speaking countries only has one entry, so this should also be deleted. the wub "?!" 10:46, 8 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Heteroscelus

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The result of the debate was delete. the wub "?!" 13:20, 15 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Heteroscelus (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Delete, Genus has been merged into Tringa, see there. Dysmorodrepanis 04:11, 8 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:World of Warcraft classes

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The result of the debate was delete. the wub "?!" 13:18, 15 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think this will be controversial but I an not sure it could fit speedy delete. This category did have articles in it a long time ago but they were all merged into a single article. So the category does't make sense anymore. Delete -- lucasbfr talk 03:37, 8 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Things named for Magellan

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The result of the debate was delete. --RobertG ♬ talk 10:50, 15 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, fun and interesting, but still trivia, should be a list in the Ferdinand Magellan article. -- ProveIt (talk) 00:19, 8 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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