Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zoltán Deme

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Although there is little in-depth dicussion of the sources, nobody apart from 89.133.187.29 believes in the notability of the subject.  Sandstein  09:05, 14 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Zoltán Deme (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Cannot find any verifiable WP:BLP independent sources other than 1 Hungarian book-listing for "Deme Zoltán ... 1949" In ictu oculi (talk) 20:33, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 08:42, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 08:42, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 08:42, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Hungary-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 08:42, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note

The required verifiable WP:BLP independent sources coming very soon both to talk page and to the respected admins In ictu oculi and North America¹⁰⁰⁰ who placed the AfD and other marks on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.133.187.29 (talk • contribs) 22:01, 22 January 2016‎

• Comment I saw that references had been added. However, even though I have access to newspaper databases I cannot find either of the newspaper articles listed. Could you provide a link indicating where you found them? I have to say that none of my searches has turned up anything to confirm notability under WP:CREATIVE. His books are held in very few libraries in WorldCat. LC has copies of the ones in English, probably as a result of copyright deposit. I don't recognize (nor find online) any of the publishing houses used. Some of his books are cataloged as "no publisher given" which means that the items are either manuscripts or very informally published. I also don't find anything about him in general databases or even in a Google books search. Magazine and newspaper searches do not turn up any reviews or discussions of his work. I'm searching in English, of course, but he did publish in English so it would be reasonable to expect sources in this language. LaMona (talk) 02:12, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Answer

Hi Dear LaMona! I am Norbert, a Hungarian. I worked in the Hungarian crew of one of the movies of Zoltan Demme (Prometheus) years ago. This Prometheus-shooting was an important part of my life, full with fond memories, so I was very sad when I saw that the Zoltan Demme Wikipedia Article was nominated to deletion. I am not a Wiki contributor, but maybe I am able to help with some information the decision making of the contributors, and I can give answers to the problems arised in your precise and careful comment.

Working hard during the day I had just limited time for research, but I have some initial results. Let me mention to you, talking about the biggest concern arised in your comment, that his books are rather not copyright deposits, manuscripts, or informally published releases, but real books (You can see the pictures of 20 items, if visiting this website that I found from year 2013: http://forimdb.webnode.hu/ [[1]] if visiting, please scroll down, and on the left side make a click on this: "Könyv/Zoltan Demme books"). Please, do not misunderstand me, I highly appreciate all your arguments and carefulness, but being a Hungarian for me it was probably little bit easier to search the .hu websites and to find something. The native language also helped me to identify the precise ISBN numbers of many LC numbered book (for instance: book Programme, where instead of the LC 56592831 the ISBN 9635500718 is correct, or, book Chords of Scales, where instead of LC 54373620 the ISBN 9635500726 is correct, etc.). Almost each of the books has correct ISBN, I will collect them, double-check them, and provide them for the decision makers very soon.

The basis of the other problems, as I think, that is the pre-Internet era. Most of these book are from the eighties of the past century; and who knows what happened with (not more than 2-3) involved publishing houses during the almost 30 years that passed, maybe they does not exist in our era. (Others survived, http://akkrt.hu/ [[2]], and I will continue when having time). Same thing with the 1980-1990 printed reviews of the books: researching via Internet the pre-Internet items easily runs to poor result. For instance, here, in the very local library, I found the full texts of 8 Hungarian review items about Zoltan Demme's books, while by Google none of these! In the Internet were nothing else, than, sometimes, the name of the author and the title of these reviews. (for instance, see the buttom item in this site http://vfek.vfmk.hu/00000115/sz_05.htm [[3]] and the 16th item in this site http://www.matarka.hu/cikk_list.php?fusz=27226 [[4]] I will collect them and I will provide the all to the decision makers).

The other thing is, that I am not wondering at all that these mostly philosophical books have poor presence in libraries. WorldCat lists only 74 and this is not too much, even if we know that most of the libraries of the past communist countries and Russia are still not fully digitalized, thus Russian and Hungarian books are underrepresented in WorldCat. But the Library of Congress has the larger half of his books (as I think, 2-3 books could reach the LC shelves even accidentally, but not 10). And oppositely the Internet sources, here not the "no publisher given" note is indicated, but the name of the publishing houses, each occasion. But besides his books, in Hungary this author is also known by his publications in popular periodicals, thus I made a short search on this path. ( https://www.antikvarium.hu/index.php?type=search&ksz=deme-zoltan&szid=159001&oldalcount=1&interfaceid=103 [[5]] , these are the first results.)

The other problem is the author himself. From the time of the Prometheus-shooting I know the he is an absolutely against-the-media person. This old man, close to his 70 years of age, as I know during his life consequently refused all the interview requests, all the media invitations and media appearances, saying: talk solely by the books, by the films, let them express everything, instead of myself, my colleagues, reporters, magazines, etc. He allows to release his products only 12 years by 12 years from his youth, he is against of any werkfilm, promotional material, etc. For sure, who thinks like this, will be present in Google search modest way. Despite of this, still there are lots of printed sources about his life and biography (for instance Balogh György: Deme Zoltán, Hungarológiai Értesítő 1987., Fried István: Deme Zoltán könyveiről. Irodalomtörténet 1985., etc. I will collect these too.) Besides, my starting search efforts resulted some Internet sources either (for instance http://epa.oszk.hu/00000/00001/00358/pdf/itk_EPA00001_1990_02_275-277.pdf [[6]], and I plan to continue this search).

And last, a little problem, a misunderstanding. Not me added the References and sources to the article! They are there since almost 6 years, with no changes and no dispute, as I see (if you think, please check the history of contributions of the article for verification). Many eagle-eyed persons control the Wikipedia, the 6 years time is long, from this reason I think that these data might be correct - but I did not search the databases I can access, this is a later-to-do for me, at first I collect reliable additional sources. Being a very experienced contributor as I see in your Talk Page, if you would have any advice, any proposal, any suggestion relating to my search, please, let me know.

Thanks for your attention and reading this message dear LaMona. What you did, when searching, I feel that it is great, but I feel also that this matter still needs some more further investigation and search. Sincerely yours, Norbert. 89.133.187.29 (talk) 10:58, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Dear 89.133.187.29 -- before you spend much more time on this it would be good for you to understand Wikipedia policy relating to notability and sources. For example, your source "www.antikvarium.hu" is an online book sales site, which cannot be used to establish notability. Publication lists (Matarka), library listings, etc. do not support notability. I'm not doubting that his books exist, I'm looking for evidence that he meets WP:GNG, WP:CREATIVE or WP:NACADEMIC. This is done by showing reliable sources as per WP:RS. The best thing that you can do would be to find substantial published materials that are about him. Being on Wikipedia for 6 years is not a reason to assume the article meets the criteria. There are over 5 million articles on English wikipedia, and ones turn up here at AfD often because some comes across them by changes. LaMona (talk) 01:05, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your advice Dear LaMona! Now I go on that path that you proposed! I collect the published materials that are directly and clearly about the author, then I list them, double-check them, and within a short time, if you allow, I will show you. Have please nice days, nice weekend, and good health. Yours sincerely, Norbert.89.133.187.29 (talk) 23:09, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Dear LaMona! Following you advice I searched for sources that are solely and clearly about the author, so I went through the printed material of the local library here, and I found 34 additional, hopefully quite informative, solid, and relaible items about him!

• Hiller István: Deme Zoltán: Halász Gábor élete és munkássága. Soproni Szemle, Vol. XX. No. 4. p. 94.
• Lőrincze Lajos: Deme Zoltán: Halász Gábor élete és munkássága. Szolnok Megyei Néplap, 1966-06-09. p. 6.
• J. Barta: Zoltán Deme: Verseghy et le double rythme iambique. Studia Litteraria, 1973. p. 135.
• Karcsai Kulcsár István: Filmévkönyv, Deme Zoltán. Magyar Filmtudományi Intézet és Filmarchívum, 1979. p. 302.
• Julow Viktor: Irodalomtudományi szekció alakult (Deme Zoltán előadást tart). Szolnok Megyei Néplap, 1980-12-02. p. 5.
• Karcsai Kulcsár István: Filmévkönyv, Deme Zoltán. Magyar Filmtudományi Intézet és Filmarchívum, 1981. p. 289.
• Hegyi Béla: Deme Zoltán. Vigília 1982. Vol. II. p. 161.
• Sinkovits Péter: Deme Zoltán: Piet Mondrian. Művészet, 1983.Vol. V. p. 64.
• Fried István: Megjegyzések Verseghy Ferenc kiadatlan írásai I. kötethez (Deme Zoltán könyvéről). Irodalomtörténet, 1984. p. 756.
• Mezey Katalin: Színkép, Deme Zoltán. Kozmosz könyvek, 1984. p. 47.
• Sztáray Zoltán: Deme Zoltán: Elment egy nemzedék. Új Látóhatár (Munich, Germany), 1985. p. 423.
• Julow Viktor: Bevezetés Deme Zoltán tanulmányaihoz. In: Debreceni műhelymunkák, 1985. p. 5.
• Tóth Béla: Utószó Deme Zoltán tanulmánykötetéhez. In: Debreceni műhelymunkák, 1985. p. 121.
• Fried István: Egy kis Verseghy-filológia (Deme Zoltán könyveiről). Irodalomtörténet, 1985. p. 956.
• Király István: Deme Zoltán: Arpeggio, Mikrokozmosz. Könyvvilág, 1985. p. 4.
• Szurmay Ernő: Deme Zoltán két újabb kötetéről. Jászkunság, 1985. Vol.III. p. 41.
• Nagy Pál: Deme Zoltán: Arpeggio és Mikrokozmosz. Magyar Műhely (Paris, France), 1985. p. 45.
• Balogh György: Deme Zoltán: Arpeggio. Hungarológiai Értesítő, 1986. p. 48.
• Lukácsy Sándor: Deme Zoltán: Verseghy könyvtára. Hungarológiai Értesítő, 1987. p. 38.
• Hopp Lajos: Deme Zoltán: Verseghy könyvtára. Magyar Könyvszemle, 1988. p. 226.
• Rónay László: Kulturális krónika (Deme Zoltán: Klasszikusok öröksége). Vigília, 1989. Vol VII. p. 558.
• Hopp Lajos: Deme Zoltán: Verseghy könyvtára. Helikon, 1989. p. 285.
• Kiss János: Neki címezték, nekünk küldték (Deme Zoltánról). Békés Megyei Népújság, 1990-4-28. p. 2.
• Szilasi László: Deme Zoltán: Klasszikusok öröksége. Irodalomtörténeti Közlemények, 1990 p. 275.
• Kiss János: Deme Zoltán nem sajátitható ki. Békés Megyei Népújság, 1990-03-27. p. 2.
• Michel Deguy: Zoltan Deme: Lutte contre l'absurdité de l'existence humaine. Atelier Hongrois (Montrouge, France). 1990. p. 38.
• Szurmay Ernő: Helyi szerzők Verseghy-képe (Deme Zoltánról). In Memoriam Verseghy Ferenc, Vol.IV. 1994. p. 72.
• Harast Alexander: Források és elemzések Deme Zoltán emlékáramaihoz (Sourcing and analyzing Zoltan Deme's poetic memoir). Jászkunság, 1996. p. 81.
• Clara Gyorgyey: Introductions to Zoltan Deme's works. In: Chords of Scales, Warwick Township, NY., Universe Publishing 1995. p. 17.
• Fried István: A korán jött ember (Deme Zoltán Verseghy-válogatása). Hungarológiai Értesítő, 1996. p. 42.
• Istvan Udvari: Zoltan Deme Conference. Acta Beregsasiensis (Beregovo, Ukraine, former Soviet Union), 2000. p. 46.
• Judit Lukovszki: Addenda to Zoltan Deme's works. In: Programme. Pompton Lakes, NJ., Globe P. House 2002. p. 116.
• Zsuzsa Ujszaszi: Addenda to Zoltan Deme's essay 'Struggling against the Absurdity'. In: Programme. Pompton Lakes, NJ., Globe P. House 2002. p. 95.
• Clara Gyorgyey: A Renaissance Man. Journal of American Studies. Eger 2009. p. 134.

My next step is to find Internet links to these sources, which is not easy and needs time because the Hungarian, Ukrainian, Russian libraries mostly just partially digitalized (or not digitalized at all.) When I will be done with this, and if you allow, I will show them to you. I feel deep thanks for your previous help, you made me light in the darkness of the research, without your advices these third party secondary sources maybe never would be revealed.

Last, let me share please an interesting experience. This tag on the top of this AfD page

"Find sources: "Zoltán Deme" – news · newspapers · books · scholar · JSTOR · free images"

proved to be absolutely useless for the research work. For example "Scholar" gives 1 citation, though just with 10 minutes research I got immediately 20 citations! [[7]] page 65 [[8]] p.2 [[9]] p.23 [[10]] p.1 [[11]] p.289 [[12]] p.5 [[13]] p.2 [[14]] p.353 [[15]] p.35 [[16]] p.1 [[17]] p.46 [[18]] p.75 [[19]] p.63 [[20]] p.84 [[21]] p.64 [[22]] p.1 [[23]] p.48 [[24]] p.317 [[25]] p.196 [[26]] p.101. (Plus I got many items, as "required reading" in the universities, like [[27]] p.1 [[28]] p.1 [[29]] p.48 [[30]] and so on). For other example, Books, Google Books gives 3 items, while this site (and others) show the pictures and data of more than 20 items! [[31]] [[32]] This above tag is not only useless as I think, but deceptive! (It presents misconducting information).

However, despite of the above lists, my purpose this time is not the confirmation of the notability under WP:NACADEMIC or WP:CREATIVE, this is a later-to-do for me, now as a first step I plan to confirm the firm notability under WP:GNG. If you would have any advice, proposal, suggestion relating to my work and the material I have provided here, please, dear LaMona, let me know.

Thank you for everything! Yours, Norbert.89.133.187.29 (talk) 14:18, 2 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Dear LaMona! Let me, please, inform you that I have started to improve the article. I added about 30 new sources (these are long reviews about the author and his works, and not just 2-3 sentences as summaries) and I also supported the 6 years old original references of the page with other sources (but I kept untouched the content and the data of the old references until I will have time to access each of them for verification). I also kept the original structure of the page (but temporarily I deleted the chapters about his stage music compositions and stage plays being also a later-to-do for me to find the proper sources to support these chapters). Now my first of all to-do is to enlarge the scale of the direct Internet links and this still needs a couple of days: the pre-Internet era poorly is represented in the Google and it is not easy to find 30-40 years old English, Russian, Ukrainian, Slovakian, Hungarian articles as posted pdf files or direct links. But I have some progress in this field, and hopefully within 2-3 days, if you allow, I can show the results to you. If you would have any advice, any suggestion, any proposal relating to my research, please dear LaMona, let me know. Yours, Norbert. 89.133.187.29 (talk) 13:33, 5 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Considering that the time for the relisting expires today, under the Wikipedia policy requirements I reviewed three times the improved article carefully, and based on these reviews my vote is to keep it. Unsourced parts were entirely deleted, while instead of the original 7 sources the page has now 42 third party secondary sources, it has now separate reference lists to the biography and to books of the author with altogether 80 inline citations, and it meets WP:BLP, WP:GNG as it is in the recent minute. 89.133.187.29 (talk) 16:55, 5 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Dear LaMona! Let me to inform you that I have started to put aside those old sources that were placed in the page 6 years ago, but neither yourself nor myself was able to access them for verification up to the recent time. Plus I took the liberty and made a short new chapter about the youth of the author, because I plodded through the old printed material and found Internet links. If you would have any proposal or advice related to my research work, please let me know! Yours, Norbert. 89.133.187.29 (talk) 13:50, 10 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete a few non-notable films ≠ WP:creative. If he was notable, my quick news search wiuld have more than this: [33].E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:06, 10 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Response Hello E.M.Gregory, thank you for commenting! I deleted the very short "Further information" section (about his films) that could be misleading. Not his films meet WP:GNG , but the long chapters "His books" (29 inline citations) "His philosophy" (34 citations) and his biography (11 citations) as I think - and I, rather, never claimed the author's movie notability under WP:CREATIVE (as you can see this here, above, in my note, made few days ago). I just wanted to give a bit of additional information for the readers with this very short "Further information" section, but probably better to avoid any misinterpretation, so I am thankful, that you drew my attention to this problem. Sincerely yours, Norbert. 89.133.187.29 (talk) 00:02, 11 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Note People may think that he is notable because he directed films though this was a side activity of him, thus I have deleted now the all movie related parts. 89.133.187.29 (talk) 08:37, 11 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Note Thanks for everyone who helped my research! But I still have a problem. This tag:

"Find sources: "Zoltán Deme" – news · newspapers · books · scholar · JSTOR · free images"

proved to be useless for reaching the sources of 1960-1980 decades especially in the past communist countries of East Europe where many libraries poorly digitized. For example "Scholar" gives 1 citation, though just with 10 minutes research I got 20 citations! [[34]] page 65 [[35]] p.2 [[36]] p.23 [[37]] p.1 [[38]] p.289 [[39]] p.5 [[40]] p.2 [[41]] p.353 [[42]] p.35 [[43]] p.1 [[44]] p.46 [[45]] p.75 [[46]] p.63 [[47]] p.84 [[48]] p.64[[49]] p.1 [[50]] p.317 [[51]] p.196 [[52]] p.101. For other example, Google Books gives 3 items, while this site (and others) show the pictures and data of more than 20 items: [[53]] [[54]] This misleads almost everyone, presents the subject non-notable with only one citation and three books, thus, I had to go over this problem and collect printed material. If an experience contributor with some Eastern European expertise would be online, and if her or his time would allow, please would you so kind to investigate the refreshed article, is my work now sufficient? Thanks again for everyone. Norbert. 89.133.187.29 (talk) 16:37, 11 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.