Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Village School (Great Neck, New York) (2nd nomination)
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Nomination withdrawn by Alchaenist. TerriersFan (talk) 02:33, 13 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Great Neck Village School
AfDs for this article:
- Village School (Great Neck, New York) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)
The fact that Village School is the oldest alternative high school does not mean it is notable enough for its own article on Wikipedia. Did Village School invent alternative education? No. It was created as the result of the alternative education movement. Alternative schools should be mentioned in the alternative education article. But Village School does not deserve its own article. Not all schools deserve to be notable. Special schools aren’t for the most part so what make this particular school unique? Alchaenist (talk) 14:08, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I am withdrawing this nomination. It seems to be notable, after all. Alchaenist (talk) 21:55, 12 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - Notability is established by reliable sources related to both the alumni and the school itself (see Google News search). Makes a good example for the type of learning, and uniqueness isn't a barrier of entry for a Wikipedia article. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:54, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Having notable alumni doesn't mean anything. The reliable sources are about Village School. But still no indication that it caused any effects on society. There is nothing notable about this school that should be included in an online encyclopedia. It is notable in the school community. But Wikipedia is not a school community. Alchaenist (talk) 18:16, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep per Scjessey. Plenty of sources, NYT articles on the school from 1971 onward. Clearly notable high school.John Z (talk) 18:47, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. An interesting and unusual school, the first of its type in America. The article is well referenced and the school has been the subject of multiple secondary sources so its notability is clearly established. Dahliarose (talk) 19:57, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Primary sources or sources affiliated with Village School are not sufficient for a Wikipedia article. It needs references that are tertiary sources which it doesn't have. Many students attend traditional schools. Why should they care at all about alternative schools? Alternative schools have affected a small percentage of people. Why should this school be notable for only educating a small population of people? First see WP:CRYSTAL, we cannot wait for it to all of sudden is notable. Alchaenist (talk) 20:10, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- ?There are many substantial reliable third party references already used in the article and in the searches above. WP:Notability has nothing to do with "how it affects society."John Z (talk) 22:06, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- These are secondary sources but are not tertiary sources. Alchaenist (talk) 22:14, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Several articles in the New York Times on the school are not reliable third party sources? Hmmm.John Z (talk) 23:33, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- These are secondary sources but are not tertiary sources. Alchaenist (talk) 22:14, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- ?There are many substantial reliable third party references already used in the article and in the searches above. WP:Notability has nothing to do with "how it affects society."John Z (talk) 22:06, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. Thryduulf (talk) 21:04, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of New York-related deletion discussions. Thryduulf (talk) 21:04, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete
The article reads like any school prospectus, with nothing of any real note worthiness. Just the usual sales pitch that most schools put out to encourage new entrants. There is no global interest in the school its just a slightly different provincial school. No references from outside of the immediate locality so not even of national notability, let alone global or international notability. dolfrog (talk) 23:50, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: What dolfrog is trying to say is Wikipedia is not a place to advertise local schools. Town articles have more notability than local schools. Therefore, they don't need to prove notability. High schools are notable is NOT policy or guideline. I don't understand why people keep using this as a valid argument. Alchaenist (talk) 14:20, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - if you consider that the page needs cleaning up please so do; however this is not a deletion ground. WP:N does not require national notability, particularly in a country as big as the US. If it did we would be culling thousands of pages about matters only notable within their state. TerriersFan (talk) 00:56, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - not only an unusual school and the first of its type but the page is supported by reliable, independent sources. TerriersFan (talk) 00:56, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I have looked at all of the references in the artilce 17 in all, most come from the Schools web site, or school inspectors which is the same for all schools, there is one dead like and a couple of links which do not mention the school at all, There is nothing in any of the links toi state that the school it notable in anyway, but only prove that the school exists. If every school that exists were to be included in Wikipedia then ever school in the world would have to be included and if you look at what Wikipedia is not Wikipedia is not a directory, and this entry would appear to just a directory entry with no notability from any other school. So what is so notable, about this school and where is the independent documentary support There is none there at the moment. dolfrog (talk) 15:26, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Dolfrog, take a look at Google News and you'll find plenty of news stories about the school, mostly in the early days in the 70s and often in the New York Times. We judge notability of organisations by external news coverage, so why not check out those sources rather than concentrating on the article in its present state? Fences&Windows 16:03, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I am from the UK have no time to look for old Newspaper articles. If they exist then they should be referenced, or the notability was only back in the 1970s and not now, some 40 years later. Has to school made further improvements, or is it part of a larger group of similar schools, have other schools use this school as a model. Or has it just lost its notability, in the sands of time. Refrecnes should go strait the relevant passages or quotes, the reader should not have to scroll though long web pages only to find a passing reference from a former worker.dolfrog (talk) 17:03, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- "have no time to look for old Newspaper articles." If you aren't prepared to research topics, then you shouldn't be arguing at AfD. Also, notability is not temporary - if it was notable in the 70s, it's notable forever as far as Wikipedia is concerned. Fences&Windows 00:50, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I am from the UK have no time to look for old Newspaper articles. If they exist then they should be referenced, or the notability was only back in the 1970s and not now, some 40 years later. Has to school made further improvements, or is it part of a larger group of similar schools, have other schools use this school as a model. Or has it just lost its notability, in the sands of time. Refrecnes should go strait the relevant passages or quotes, the reader should not have to scroll though long web pages only to find a passing reference from a former worker.dolfrog (talk) 17:03, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: The external news coverage is not tertiary sources. Alchaenist (talk) 16:27, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Secondary sources (e.g. the New York Times) are third party publications. Third party publication just means someone other than the subject; i.e. someone other than the school or people involved in the school. When WP:Reliable sources says "reliable, third-party, published sources" it literally means secondary sources, which is why it also says Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable secondary sources. If you're arguing that secondary sources are not third party sources then it's possible that you're confusing third party source with tertiary source. The sub guideline most relevant to this organization is WP:Notability (organizations and companies), which states "an organization is generally considered notable if it has been the subject of significant coverage in reliable, independent secondary sources." Ha! (talk) 17:41, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- An organization is "an organization is generally considered notable if it has been the subject of significant coverage in reliable, independent secondary sources." In this case, Village School is not a typical high school. Therefore it doesn't have tertiary sources to claim notability. Alchaenist (talk) 17:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Tertiary sources (e.g., dictionaries and encyclopedias) are not necessary. We're looking for third-party sources (e.g., newspaper articles written by someone that is not part of the school). WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:20, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- How are tertiary sources not necessary when this school is not the typical high school? Alchaenist (talk) 19:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- None of Wikipedia's notability guidelines require tertiary sources to establish notability; all of them require secondary sources instead. Unless you can link to a WP:Notability guideline that says tertiary sources are required, an argument based on a requirement for tertiary sources is invalid. Ha! (talk) 20:48, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Village School is not a typical high school. Isn't that enough to warrant tertiary sources? Besides, notability is not temporary. I haven't read anything new about the school. Alchaenist (talk) 20:56, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Regardless of the type of school it is ↩
- Village School is not a typical high school. Isn't that enough to warrant tertiary sources? Besides, notability is not temporary. I haven't read anything new about the school. Alchaenist (talk) 20:56, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- None of Wikipedia's notability guidelines require tertiary sources to establish notability; all of them require secondary sources instead. Unless you can link to a WP:Notability guideline that says tertiary sources are required, an argument based on a requirement for tertiary sources is invalid. Ha! (talk) 20:48, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- How are tertiary sources not necessary when this school is not the typical high school? Alchaenist (talk) 19:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Tertiary sources (e.g., dictionaries and encyclopedias) are not necessary. We're looking for third-party sources (e.g., newspaper articles written by someone that is not part of the school). WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:20, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- An organization is "an organization is generally considered notable if it has been the subject of significant coverage in reliable, independent secondary sources." In this case, Village School is not a typical high school. Therefore it doesn't have tertiary sources to claim notability. Alchaenist (talk) 17:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Secondary sources (e.g. the New York Times) are third party publications. Third party publication just means someone other than the subject; i.e. someone other than the school or people involved in the school. When WP:Reliable sources says "reliable, third-party, published sources" it literally means secondary sources, which is why it also says Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable secondary sources. If you're arguing that secondary sources are not third party sources then it's possible that you're confusing third party source with tertiary source. The sub guideline most relevant to this organization is WP:Notability (organizations and companies), which states "an organization is generally considered notable if it has been the subject of significant coverage in reliable, independent secondary sources." Ha! (talk) 17:41, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Dolfrog, take a look at Google News and you'll find plenty of news stories about the school, mostly in the early days in the 70s and often in the New York Times. We judge notability of organisations by external news coverage, so why not check out those sources rather than concentrating on the article in its present state? Fences&Windows 16:03, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I have looked at all of the references in the artilce 17 in all, most come from the Schools web site, or school inspectors which is the same for all schools, there is one dead like and a couple of links which do not mention the school at all, There is nothing in any of the links toi state that the school it notable in anyway, but only prove that the school exists. If every school that exists were to be included in Wikipedia then ever school in the world would have to be included and if you look at what Wikipedia is not Wikipedia is not a directory, and this entry would appear to just a directory entry with no notability from any other school. So what is so notable, about this school and where is the independent documentary support There is none there at the moment. dolfrog (talk) 15:26, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
↪ and also regardless of what type of topic it is, WP:Notability requires secondary sources rather than tertiary sources. Notability is not temporary states that a topic [...] does not need to have ongoing coverage from news sources; in other words, "notability is not temporary" means that it doesn't matter that you haven't read anything new about the school, rather than that it does matter. On a side note, if you're changing your previous comments in an AfD discussion so that they take on a different meaning, it's usually better to strike through the old text and insert new text than to replace the old text with new text; otherwise the discussion no longer makes sense. To strike through text, use <s></s>,<strike></strike> or <del></del>; see WP:Markup#Character_formatting. Ha! (talk) 21:59, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Alchaenist's arguments about tertiary sources should be discounted. Either they do not understand what a tertiary source is, or they do not understand Wikipedia notability guidelines. Ha! is correct about what "Notability is not temporary" means; editors should read policies and guidelines before assuming they mean the direct opposite of what they actually say. Oh, and Keep as I've not read a single good argument for deletion. Fences&Windows 00:50, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - It's notable. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 02:07, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep Notable school with notable alumni, backed up by dozens of reliable and verifiable sources including coverage in The New York Times about the school. Alansohn (talk) 04:58, 12 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.